sick of crappy cycle lanes which actually disimprove travel for cyclists.

Fian · 26-05-2022 09:48PM #1

Not the first time this has occurred to me, but they are proposing to put a cycle lane in on my Road (Taney Road in Dundrum) and consequently significantly narrow the road for cars, not to mention remove some nice old trees. Now this is something I should be delighted about. It is something I would be delighted about, worth losing a few trees, if the cycle lane were going to be any bloody use.

It is less than one Kilometre from my house on Taney Road, to the Goat Grill also on Taney Road. If I cycle there atm I travel on a road without cycle lanes. I do not have any yield sign between my house on that route until I reach the traffic lights at the Goat. Granted there are traffic lights and pedestrian lights where I may need to stop.

On the propose new cycle lane there are 11 yield signs over that same route. So it is a no brainer, I am going to be better off on the road. BUT I am going to have pissed off motorists sharing that (much narrower!) road with me who will be furious that I am not in the cycle lane. Thanks a bunch.

You would think they would learn from experience with the crappy cycle lanes not being used all over their area already.

For what it is worth the proposed cycle route is open for consultation and can be seen here:

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/transportation/taney-road-to-n11-active-travel-route/

I made a submission just there and I have copy/pasted it below.

I think a cycleway on this route is a good idea and would be very welcome. However the proposed design is useless. You have cyclists yielding every few metres. If this is installed I will not use the cycle lane, I will travel on the roadway instead where I will have right of way and will not have to constantly yield. The proposed cycleway will be less attractive than the existing roadway or even the (narrower and more congested!) proposed roadway.

This infrastructure is going to make my travel as a cyclist more difficult rather than enhancing it, I have no doubt I will have to deal with more aggressive drivers punishment passing me for having the temerity to use "their" road when there is a new cycleway installed, so it will make cycling more dangerous rather than less.

Have the side roads yield to the cycleway rather than the cyclists yielding to traffic coming onto the main road. Similarly with other yield points. Otherwise cyclists will vote with their handlebars and ignore the route and remain on the road. I will pass through 11 yield signs between my house and the end of Taney road on the proposed cycle lane. I will pass none if I use the road instead. Obviously ignoring the cycle lane is a no brainer.

This is exactly the reason why so much of the older cycling infrastructure in DLR is not used by cyclists. You need to learn from past experience. Cyclists should have similar rights of way in the cycle lane on Taney Road as they would have if they travel on the road with the cars, or they will not use the cycleway.

CramCycle · 27-05-2022 09:06AM

I presume its a hang up from making it two way rather than one way on both sides, I certainly despise those cut ins at junctions as left turning vehicles seem to have short memories. In laws used to live on the opposite side fo the road, no one heading towards the Goat direction is going to cross that traffic to get over onto that lane.

KaneToad · 27-05-2022 09:19AM

A similar cycle lane opened near me several years ago. It was on a relatively steep hill. It was about 800m long and had no less than 6 yield points on it.

No cyclist in their right mind would chose to use it as they struggled up the hill with the possibility that they'd have to stop several times and then have to build momentum all over again.

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot · 27-05-2022 10:32AM

They would understand those exact issues if they actually bothered their arse to consult with cyclists who already use the road.

fat bloke · 27-05-2022 11:18AM

It is infuriating to see brand new cycling infrastructure being put in at presumably huge cost but at "worst" practice.

Coming from Tallaght to Jobstown on the N81 is a recent example of exactly that. Same as you say above. They've made a short, wide cycle path that makes no sense and then narrowed the road way to a pinchpoint with no hard shoulder, so all it does is make you more in the way of the vehicular traffic. All the drivers see is a brand new cyclepath and a cyclist not using it. It's like looking in the window of one of those IKEA room displays and wondering why no one is eating any of that lovely (plastic) fruit in the bowl. :)

If you do take the path, you have to cross over at the junction, and then cross the road meeting the N81 at a T (which of course has an island in the middle, making it a 2 step crossing). Then you have about 50 yards of that lovely new cycle path, which leads onto a crappy narrow single path off road for about 300 yards or so which then dumps you back out on the N81, on the wrong side of the road, with a kissing gate to negotiate as a final insult.

JazzyJ · 27-05-2022 11:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119120952#Comment_119120952

They do consult cyclists. They just ignore them.

This abomination was built near me: https://irishcycle.com/2018/04/23/new-sandyford-cycle-route-planned-to-cross-m50/

Their response is essentially, the design is fine and "cyclists who wish to do so can continue to use the road": https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/transportation/sandyford-cycle-route-kilgobbin-drummartin-link-ro/results/drummartinkilgobbincyclepublicconsultationreport.pdf

Using the bike lane to go north from the Hillcrest Road junction to the far side of the Blackthorn Drive junction requires going through 6 signalised crossings and yielding once to a minor road (which will likely be upgraded to another set of lights in the future), not to mention crossing over to the middle of a roundabout, and onto a 2 way bike lane on the far side of the road and then moving back again to the nearside of the road. Staying on the road there's only 3 lights.

ARX · 27-05-2022 02:01PM

I know that M50 obstacle course and I just use the road.

Here are 3 pictures of DLR cycle infrastructure.

In the first, cyclists can't use the cycle lane to turn left off Frascati Rd as it has a 'no entry' sign on each side.

In the second, cyclists can't use the cycle lane to turn left off Goatstown Rd, as there's a 'no left turn sign' before the junction.

The third is a view of the other end of the short (a few metres) cycle lane, showing a parked car at the end of the cycle lane. Apparently it didn't occur to anyone to restrict parking at this point.

I don't get the impression that a great deal of thought has been put into this.

CramCycle · 27-05-2022 03:27PM

I suspect it is more an absence of the "except cyclists" underneath that is the issue. To be honest, much like the shared space posts on another thread, I didn't think it really needed to be spelt out but probably should as an ass covering. That turn off on Frascati road, is actually a two way road and its just to stop rat running that the no entry signs are up, someone could correct me but probably there before the cycle lane was done up. Sadly until they put up the two bollards and made it clearer, I suspect people done it every day. I doubt any cyclists seeing the path look at the signs and think they are for us, I imagine they realise the common sense that it was for the rat runners who would clog the street. The Taney road one is the same, cars would often turn down there, several still do either along the one way stretch or through the garage. You are correct on the cars at the end though. There are or were meant to be yellow lines there, not sure it ever happened though based on that pic being 2018. It is now just as handy to go to the Clonskeagh road with the path there, this was meant to bring you through the quieter estates, which they were, until the rat running.

ARX · 27-05-2022 05:23PM

Oh yeah, it's clear enough what's intended. What I was getting at is the half-assed way in which it was done. They managed to get it right on Idrone Terrace:

Like the 'Muldhuddart' [sic] sign in Blanchardstown, it's not the end of the world. It just annoys me that they can't be bothered to get even the simple stuff right. That attitude is why cycle infrastructure is so crap.

byrnem31 · 30-05-2022 08:20PM

The cycle lanes are disgraceful. Heading up the shamrock rovers road towards Killinarden they have two cycle paths on one side that everyone walks on.

Then coming from firhouse just before the mill pub cross roads a cycle path just starts up on the path randomly . You'd have to be on a stunt bmx to bunny hop up onto it. Its like something from craggy Island.

CramCycle · 30-05-2022 08:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119136749#Comment_119136749

But its enough to irritate people who think you should be in it. One like that near my mother in laws. While I am capable of bunny hoping up onto it, the stretch of road is only 100m, but every 2nd time I visit I get beeped out of it. Despite the actual traffic lane being so wide it can accomodate me, and overtaking traffic, and over 1m of space, in a quiet area with rarely any oncoming traffic. Some people just want to hate on others, nothing will fix that except the passage of time and their passing in general.

Jonesy101 · 31-05-2022 09:21AM

couldnt agree more, theyre doing the same thing on Churchtown Road Upper, no provision for on street parking so the road will be narrower and visitors parking on the cycle lane all day. The school will have no drop off points allowed anymore and the cycle lane comes from no where and goes to no where. Not sure how any road or cycle engineer or whatever they are could ever sleep at night with the absolute shite they design and make drawings for and put to planning permission. there seems to be no way to stop the crap they build everywhere, pissing off cyclists and motorists.

Furze99 · 31-05-2022 09:38AM

Commented on another thread that I grew up in Dublin and cycled everywhere as a teenager back a few decades. There were no cycle or bus lanes at all. You used your wits and had balls.

So when I cycled this year around the city I was pleasantly surprised at how GOOD the cycling infrastructure is, compared to days of yore.

As for yielding at junctions etc., I observed that about 2/3rds of fellow cyclists just ignored whatever signage/ colour of lights and used their common sense.

Nothings perfect, all is compromise between pedestrians, cyclists, motorists and large vehicles - never mind horses & sulkies.

Why do some cyclists moan, when things are not entirely to their liking? :)

31-05-2022 09:41AM

They wrecked one of the widest, nicest roads in my town with cycle paths between the parking "lane" and the footpath. Can't be cleaned with a roadsweepers so usually full of debris and barely used. At one end the cycle lane ends where the road narrows and there's a junction to turn off. At the other end the lane ended and they put those stupid narrow speedbumps in. Guy I worked with literally lived next to it, within a week someone was knocked off their bike by someone trying to go around a speed bump. Now I know, it's the driver's fault, but literally everyone said exactly what would happen. So they tore up the speed bumps, did a **** job patching the road and moved the bumps. At the other end was the monstrosity below which was remedied by admitting the paint meant nothing so they just removed most of it.

The other street they've ruined has contributed massively to congestion on 5 roads which meet nearby, believe me it's no safer for cyclists with drivers having to make room if they want any chance to progress.

Recently they did one of the old main roads. Cycle lane isn't segregated, just potholed, broken up and full of various drain covers. Road is in a fuckin heap but they had the budget instead to paint some useless lines and put in speed bumps that ya pretty much need to slow to second gear for while the cyclist next to you is going no faster because next to the bump is a kerb not far at all from the footpath.

I despair at planning, design and maintenance in this country. I've yet to see a cycle lane in my town I would use on a bike except in a couple of the newer developments. Even out there though, some were half-built 15 years ago and the paths are overgrown and some look forgotten about. Of course then there's the developments that are only accessible from a narrow road without even a footpath. That might be added 10 years later if the council get around to it.

Now I think about I know two people with fairly serious injuries in the last year on their bikes. One wasn't looking properly at some infrastructure/furniture and went out in front of a car, again, needless nonsense. The other went over his handlebars on a pothole and broke both his elbows. One completely due to a lack of maintenance of the regular roadway and the other right at the "traffic calming" measures.

daragh_ · 31-05-2022 09:48AM

Why do some cyclists moan, when things are not entirely to their liking? :)

Why should anyone settle for their taxation being spent on infrastructure that isn't fit for purpose? If car drivers were forced the use roads designed to a similar standard there would be a hell to pay.

loyatemu · 31-05-2022 10:00AM

there's always going to be some compromise with segregated cycle lanes, and they're generally not going to be as fast as cycling on the road. That's not an excuse for crappy designs, but it is a trade off for safer routes that will encourage more cyclists. I'm happy to cycle on pretty much any road, but plenty of people aren't. The one thing that will make cycling safer for everyone is more cyclists.

In general I'm in favour of bi-directional cycle lanes like those proposed for Taney Road; I think they feel safer and they make it easier to overtake other cyclists, but they do present more conflict points with road traffic which result in more traffic signals. If we want to follow best practice from elsewhere (in particular the Netherlands) then the cycle lanes and footpaths need to have priority across minor junctions, preferably in the form of continuous raised zebra crossings; and at larger junctions where traffic signals are required cyclists need to have as much "green phase" as general traffic on the road, rather than being treated as glorified pedestrians and forced to wait for long periods.

Seth Brundle · 31-05-2022 10:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119138316#Comment_119138316

Commented on another thread that I grew up in Dublin and cycled everywhere as a teenager back a few decades. There were no cycle or bus lanes at all. You used your wits and had balls.

Traffic has changed since then unless you are in your early twenties. There are many more cars on the road and much less patience for other road users. It is not comparable really!

So when I cycled this year around the city I was pleasantly surprised at how GOOD the cycling infrastructure is, compared to days of yore.

Not sure where you cycled but whilst the infrastructure has improved in some places, generally it has either remained the same or has become worse to the point that some of the new cycling infrastructure has become more dangerous than when that road had nothing.

As for yielding at junctions etc., I observed that about 2/3rds of fellow cyclists just ignored whatever signage/ colour of lights and used their common sense.

I'm not sure where you noticed this or how far you travelled but this is not the case. In fact, I see far more cars breaking amber and red lights than I do cyclists.

Nothings perfect, all is compromise between pedestrians, cyclists, motorists and large vehicles - never mind horses & sulkies.

I'm not sure what exactly your point is here.

Why do some cyclists moan, when things are not entirely to their liking? :)

I would rather that any cycling infrastructure is designed with the end user in mind rather than the traditional approach by councils who think they know better despite those designers not being bike riders. To have the council engineer junctions whilst ignoring the experiences of the Dutch in favour of their own design which is obvious won't work but hey ho, "we know better" is a waste of time, effort and money. The biggest problem is that if I choose not to use the new infrastructure because of whatever reason, I can expect to have a agressive driver try and punish me for it. I'll moan because I've to put up with dickheads who agressively insist on telling me what to do because they feel inconvenienced (even if they're not actually inconvenienced!).

I want to cycle to work and back without someone using their vehicle to take an agressive swipe at me for cycling completely legally. Is that too much to ask?

ARX · 31-05-2022 10:38AM

I am happy to use good-quality cycle infrastructure (even where it's slower for me than using the road) but such is almost non-existent in Dublin (the Grand Canal cycle lane and the Blackrock bypass cycle lane being two exceptions).

There are certain roads I avoid - detouring through housing estates - to avoid using the cycle lanes, because they're so bad. Leopardstown Rd and Stillorgan Park Rd are examples.

The cycle lane northbound between Kilmacud Rd Upper and the Goat pub is so badly paved that I can't sit in the saddle. So I use the road.

The lanes around The Park shopping centre in Ballyogan are more of the same.

Here's a picture of a new cycle lane in Clonsilla. They didn't bother to drop the kerb, so you're expected to stop, get off your bike, lift it onto the cycle lane, ride the 65 metres to the traffic lights (where the cycle lane ends) and then rejoin the road.

I can't see a reason for this other than laziness and sloppiness. I've ridden in lots of European cities and Dublin has by a wide margin the worst road infrastructure of any I've been to. I don't think it's a question of money. I'd be fairly sure that Ireland is wealthier than Poland, but the cycle infrastructure in Warsaw is decades ahead of what we have in Dublin.

Macy0161 · 31-05-2022 11:01AM

Why do some cyclists moan, when things are not entirely to their liking?

We've a whole motorway network as the existing N roads were not up to motorists liking?

Personally, I'd rather them not bother than put in rubbish infrastructure that isn't fit for purpose. As other's have said, I have no idea why our council engineers think they know better than other State's who have a history of getting things right?

There must be something inherently bias in the people attracted to do engineering that they come at it from a motorist viewpoint rather than vru viewpoint, and then again why they seem so pig headed against following established best practice?

Tombo2001 · 31-05-2022 11:11AM

the only real moan I'd have is where the cycle path has wands & also the surface is really bad, e.g there has been road works done and its very uneven - but you have to go over it, no option to go around it.

Montage of Feck · 31-05-2022 12:12PM

The vast majority of cycle "infrastructure" is thoughtless end of year or grant funded spending.

Dr_Colossus · 31-05-2022 12:54PM

Here's a picture of a new cycle lane in Clonsilla. They didn't bother to drop the kerb, so you're expected to stop, get off your bike, lift it onto the cycle lane, ride the 65 metres to the traffic lights (where the cycle lane ends) and then rejoin the road.

Ha, that's fairly local to me, in addition to being completely impossible to access it's also very wavey/lumpy for a new surface and much worse than both the concrete footpath inside it and the existing road outside. Rain water collects in the little troughs and water pools in sections so looks like it was leveled with a whacker plater than a proper roller.

Cycle lanes need to be smooth and level and of better quality than the adjoining road or they are unlikely to be used. The so called new cycle lane along the quays outside Guinness is a right pain, was never good but they made it even worse by covering the uneven road with a layer or red chips and effectively force you into using the new junction layout if wishing to turn right towards the Phoenix Park.

byrnem31 · 31-05-2022 02:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119139263#Comment_119139263

Thats a bloody disgrace, a waste of money and dangerous. What wallies think of these things.

ARX · 31-05-2022 02:42PM

I was thinking maybe it wasn't dished on purpose, because if it was it would just have cars parked in it (the building on the left is a Lidl). Either way, it's depressing: it has been made effectively unusable either due to the incompetence of the designers or builders, or due to the chronic failure of this country to deal with illegal parking.

Seth Brundle · 31-05-2022 03:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119139955#Comment_119139955

Doubtful. I'd say that it is more like the Lidl development included some cycle infrastructure in order to get its planning application - if it were to stop cars, it would have been easier to bolt a few plastic wands to the kerb. The fact that it is not part of a cycle network or that it is completely impractical for cyclists to use it is quite irrelevant because nobody involved in its design or approval obviously sits on a bike.

neris · 31-05-2022 03:16PM

Fingal put in bollards/wand type things around our area to "segregate" the cycle lane & Road. They are a pain in the ass and no more safer then before. Cars parked inside them blocking the lane, stuck behind slower cyclists not to mention the piss poor surfaces

magicbastarder · 31-05-2022 03:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119139828#Comment_119139828

as above, i suspect new developments have some clause in planning about putting cycle infrastructure along the road frontage, but the builders just lash the easiest thing they can in.

i passed a development outside ratoath recently, and they put in about 100m of bike lane nowhere near any other bike lane, which is good for nothing.

Macy0161 · 31-05-2022 03:56PM

The new cycle lanes that were a condition of the new developments in Newtownmountkennedy provide much needed parking for the builders while they work on the next phases of the development...

sy_flembeck · 31-05-2022 10:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140353#Comment_119140353

Just like the new ones in Ashford

Ferris · 01-06-2022 03:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140167#Comment_119140167

You could go on. They're horrendous looking. They force you have to cycle in the gutter with the leaves and puddles. The street sweepers don't fit so they're getting filthy. The bike trailer won't fit so I can't tow the kids anymore. Cars keep on hitting them / parking on them etc. They've started painting them with that gravel paint stuff that just balls up and marbles so its a new hazard.

On the rare occasion I drive I actually find them very distracting too, the reflectors on the bollards are effectively the same height as bike lights and it can be difficult to differentiate at a glance. I certainly have had drivers not see me and pull out along the new stretches.

Total tokenism, box ticking and budget wastage in my view. They could've used the money far more constructively and put in some quality measures, albeit on a smaller scale but that wouldn't have fitted the narrative.

bikedude · 01-06-2022 11:59PM

https://twitter.com/irishcycle/status/1506387665528266760?s=21&t=0nu40mX_wfUNFEG6RdbMaA

This new cycle lane on Drummarting RD x Eden park road is horrible to use, on the way to Sandyford they expect you to stop on a green traffic light, press the crossing light button and wait for the pedestrian light to go green. On the way into town, two big pumps on the cycle lane, and people need to stand in the cycle lane to wait the green light to cross. 🤯

And what’s the idea with all the bollards that have appeared during lock down, more of a hazard then a benefit to separate the cycle lanes.

sick of crappy cycle lanes which actually disimprove travel for cyclists.

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