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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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    #5102
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,780 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088264#Comment_119088264


    People just thought vaccines = disease be gone. Which wasn't the case with a virus that mutates a lot.

    Certain people seem to act like we have some "contract" with the virus, we don't. We could have a new wave. There could be a new variant that is much more deadly.



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    #5103
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Up until omicron came and even while after it was out every poster who even hinted that vaccines do not stop transmission was banned from every thread but conspiracy one. Fast forward few months and rhetoric changed to that they "reduce transmission" - whatever that means since it is hard to prove that point.



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    #5104
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088686#Comment_119088686

    Exactly ... 'your opinion'

    but I'd but much more weight behind the opinions and studies of those who are experts in the field and know about epidemiology, vaccines and efficacy.

    I've said before that my wife has two decades of experience in researching and interpreting medical data in this area ... her opinion is vastly different to yours.

    No disrespect but not all opinions are equal



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    #5105
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088725#Comment_119088725

    Is your wife's opinion that the vaccines are effective at preventing symptomatic cases of Covid? And you? Are the vaccines are effective at preventing symptomatic cases of covid, in your opinion?



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    #5106
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,780 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088608#Comment_119088608

    Note how you claim in this thread not to be an anti-vaxxer or conspiracy theorist, yeah..



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    #5107
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088820#Comment_119088820

    my opinion is irrelevant.

    My wife's opinion is that the high uptake of the vaccines in Ireland (90%+ in the main demographic) had very very positive effects on the case numbers requiring hospital treatment including ICU, which equated to lower fatalities. Your straw man argument about 'preventing symptomatic cases' is irrelevant as the main priority of governments was to keep people out of hospital and serious illness.

    You can try and shift the goalposts all you want - but the reality is that the vaccination program was a very positive program.

    As for the safety of vaccines (which this thread is about) ... it is now beyond doubt as the only discussion points being put forward are around efficacy and the usual 'global Pharma conspiracies'



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    #5108
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,780 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088715#Comment_119088715

    Strange, I've repeated said the vaccines do not stop transmission in many threads.

    When I see the ban lists it's typically a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists, the same list. So yeah, not surprising really.



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    #5109
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088381#Comment_119088381

    Your problem is that you fantasize way too much about how you do know what others meant or why they did what they did...

    Also talking about "personal untrained, highly biased and very dishonest opinion" is what you do here too considering that not even year ago you were convinced that vaccine grants you immunity.



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    #5110
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088849#Comment_119088849

    very positive effects on the case numbers requiring hospital treatment including ICU, which equated to lower fatalities.

    So, I'm in agreement with your wife. The vaccines have had positive effects at preventing ICU cases and reducing facilities.

    Your straw man argument about 'preventing symptomatic cases' is irrelevant as the main priority of governments was to keep people out of hospital and serious illness.

    My point is that the vaccines were approved to prevent symptomatic cases, not to keep people out of hospital and reduce serious illness. That is a bonus, but it has not changed the criteria under which the vaccines were granted approval in the first place.

    Calling this fact a straw man argument just emphasises my original point:

    When the vaccines were first rolled out the clear expectation was that the primary function was to prevent catching Covid.

    When it became abundantly clear that this was not working as intended, but they were having good effect in preventing serious illness and death, very few vaccine proponents acknowledged this. It was spun as if the primary function all along was to reduce serious illness and death, and anybody who thought they were taking the vaccine to prevent them getting Covid just didn't understand how vaccines worked.

    This is total and utter nonsense, and as far as I am concerned it undermines all subsequent claims about the vaccine efficacy and safety.



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    #5111
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,021 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088895#Comment_119088895

    My point is that the vaccines were approved to prevent symptomatic cases

    https://twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1396244867395768320?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1396244867395768320%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newstalk.com%2Fnews%2Fluke-oneill-vaccines-highly-effective-against-indian-variant-of-covid-1199686


    the vaccines DID prevent symptomatic cases



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    #5112
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088895#Comment_119088895

    except you are incorrect in what you are saying about the 'clear expectation was that the primary function was to prevent catching covid'

    Here is a simple narrative from the NHS in Scotland - published in March 2021

    https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/the-vaccines/how-the-vaccines-work

    Note how it states


    "The vaccines contain ingredients that give your body instructions to produce the spike protein, using the virus’ genetic code.

    Then, your body makes antibodies that can recognise the spike protein on the coronavirus if it enters your body and help fight it off. This means that if you choose to take a vaccine, you are less likely to get severely sick if you encounter the coronavirus"

    ZERO Mention of not being able to contract the virus


    This is from the CDC in Sept 2021

    "Vaccinated people can still become infected and have the potential to spread the virus to others, although at much lower rates than unvaccinated people"

    link: fully-vaccinated-people.html


    So - it is a straw man argument when your argument is based upon something that wasn't true



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    #5113
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,066 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088664#Comment_119088664

    There was never any claim that the vaccines would be that effective, or that they were even hoping for them to be anything like as effective as they were. You are claiming that it was expected for them to be some perfect miracle cure, that was absolutely never the case at any point in the process. They would have been approved even if far less effective than they turned out to be, as shown by the fact that of the various ones approved they range from mid 90% - low 60% effectiveness.



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    #5114
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,780 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    For a time I thought these vaccines would prevent most transmission from the variants, then I read about it

    When I discovered otherwise, I didn't start trying to blame something else for me being wrong. On a conspiracy theory forum.



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    #5115
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088970#Comment_119088970

    There was never any claim that the vaccines would be that effective, or that they were even hoping for them to be anything like as effective as they were. You are claiming that it was expected for them to be some perfect miracle cure

    Again you are putting words in my mouth. I have said nothing about expectations of a miracle cure, or degrees of effectiveness.

    I have simply said that the vaccines were approved for human use solely to prevent cases of Covid 19, they were not approved to reduce the severity of the outcome. That is a benefit that has only become clear after widespread vaccination, but at the time of approval there was no data to support this.



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    #5116
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088937#Comment_119088937

    So - it is a straw man argument when your argument is based upon something that wasn't true

    If you are claiming that the vaccines were not approved in order to prevent vaccinated people contracting symptomatic Covid, can you tell me what they were approved for?



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    #5117
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,780 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089013#Comment_119089013

    Vaccines were developed to reduce transmission and reduce severity of the disease. Keyword: reduce.

    Indeed, the vaccines did reduce transmission (depending on variant, a vaccinated person held the viral load for a shorter period than an unvaccinated person) and they greatly reduced the severity of the disease

    Like many people, you misunderstood and thought that vaccines would literally "stop" Covid. For a period I presumed that as well.



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    #5118
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089029#Comment_119089029

    To reduce the effects of the virus and its transmission .... you are totally misinformed if you still believe that the vaccine was a one stop shop



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    #5119
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089057#Comment_119089057

    Vaccines were developed to reduce transmission and reduce severity of the disease. Keyword: reduce.

    Vaccines were approved to prevent symptomatic cases. Keyword: approved

    My original post:

    It was spun as if the primary function all along was to reduce serious illness and death, and anybody who thought they were taking the vaccine to prevent them getting Covid just didn't understand how vaccines worked.

    Your response:

    Like many people, you misunderstood and thought that vaccines would literally "stop" Covid.

    QED.



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    #5120
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089078#Comment_119089078

    And you're totally misinformed if you think the vaccines were granted approval to reduce the effects of the virus and it's transmission. I don't think that is your fault, but it has been spun that way which is the point of my initial post. So you are far from alone in this belief.



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    #5121
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,021 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    we already knew from the flu vaccine that people who get the vaccine can still contract the virus, but the vaccine works by reducing the viral load and subsequent severity of the illness.



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    #5122
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,780 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089083#Comment_119089083


    The vaccines were developed before Delta and they showed decent efficacy in reducing transmission the earlier forms of the virus. Less so with variants that arrived during and after development.

    As Omicron raged, those vaccines were much less effective on transmission (obviously) but held strong on reducing severity. You've then inserted your personal narrative that it was "spun" based on your flawed earlier thinking that the vaccines would be much more effective in preventing transmission

    It's plain for everyone to see.



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    #5123
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089105#Comment_119089105

    I'm not totally misinformed - as I've mentioned I do have the benefit of living with someone who is an actual expert in the area and has access to the correct and most up todate data as part of their profession.

    Anyway, your frustration and confusion is justifiable if you came from an opinion that the vaccine was a one stop shop. Hopefully you'll take on board some of the information that people have directed you to and you're frustrations will be alleviated somewhat.



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    #5124
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Amazing. After the glut of recent posts, it still remains that the vaccines are overwhelming safe.



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    #5125
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,780 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089167#Comment_119089167

    The remaining zealots need to salvage something after dedicating so many posts to anti-vaccine, anti-mask, Covid conspiracy quackery. They'll take anything at this stage.



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    #5126
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,021 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    moving-goalpost.gif

    ...



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    #5127
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089117#Comment_119089117

    You've then inserted your personal narrative that it was "spun" based on your flawed earlier thinking that the vaccines would be much more effective in preventing transmission

    Once again you are putting words in my mouth, I said nothing about preventing transmission. I said approval was granted to prevent symptomatic cases.



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    #5128
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089132#Comment_119089132

    You said that the vaccine was approved "To reduce the effects of the virus and its transmission".

    That is wrong. You are totally misinformed, irrespective of who you live with.



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    #5129
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089251#Comment_119089251

    Incorrect



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    #5130
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,780 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089242#Comment_119089242

    Vaccine trials showed up to 95% reduction in symptomatic Covid cases.

    The virus mutates.

    You seem to be suggesting some sort of massive global "marketing" thing happened, care to elaborate on that? Be specific please



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    #5131
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089321#Comment_119089321

    By marketing I mean they were granted approval to bring the vaccines to market - not that the world's top ad agencies were engaged to book superbowl ads etc.

    And the initial approval to market the vaccines was granted on the specific basis to prevent symptomatic Covid cases as opposed to reduce the effects of the virus and its transmission.



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