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RTÉ journalist found guilty of sexually assaulting woman as she slept

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,996 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Previous consent is not consent, and a sleeping person can't consent. good lord i'm genuinely worried people don't get this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    So he should have asked her to leave once consent was withdrawn. Best of luck to her in the city at that hour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,294 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    It's these types of one liner takes on these types of situations that has the lines so blurred and paints men in such a bad way.

    The whole night and the events after need to be looked at here to come to a common sense analysis.

    The words sexual assault and rape are now ridiculously diluted, unfortunately.

    Oh, and I don't think she said "stop sexually assaulting me," even if it does bolster your take on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,996 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    I'd say it's climbing on top of sleeping women and fondling them that has men painted in a bad light, but I guess not doing that makes me "woke"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    In the eyes of the law they aren't and previously agreed consent can be withdrawn at any time and should be assumed to be withdrawn unless confirmed otherwise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,294 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Another silly binary type take......try use some nuance, context, detail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,996 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    yeah, god forbid she get's sexually assaulted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,996 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Context: She was asleep

    Detail: He climbed on top and sexually assaulted her

    Nuance? Maybe she was giving him the come to bed snore?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    I'm not talking about the law I'm talking about relationship dynamics. People have reason and the ability to address such things themselves. There is a very different dynamic at work here, with misplaced and wrong assumptions about consent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    the problem here is although he would surely get a suspended sentance, his life is as screwed as if he was a pedo basically

    a couple of years in prison wont make much difference



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    in writing...



    as they say "i never went to bed with a bad lookin woman but i often woke up with one"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    Rightly, things have changed over the last decade.

    The ONS should be benched.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,294 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    So is this man in your eyes a sexual deviant? Do you not take into account the situation, drink, their consent to engage in intimacy, their meeting up afterwards etc. The length of time before the incident was reported....

    do you also believe that what happened to this man could happen to almost any man in a similar situation? If you do, then we are all no different than he.

    I am sure there are many many many decent and good and gentle men who have ended up in similar situations....none meaning in any way to harm, hurt or terrorize any woman

    It seems you want to demonize this man based of a very very short time where he acted and she said stop/no, and he then stopped.



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This feels like a discussion scenario presented in a consent workshop- except it’s not. It’s very real for the two people involved, and their families.

    I can understand some of the reactions on this thread in favour of the male but I’m not sure people are comparing like with like experiences they’ve had themselves.

    The elements to this case are:

    1. They were not known to each other previously nor had any history of sexual contact - I think that’s significant, especially when it comes to sexual norms between two people who are in a loving relationship - there was no previous history of agreement on what was acceptable
    2. While they engaged in certain foreplay activities, the victim then clearly shut this down until possibly the following morning- maybe this was alcohol related or maybe just she decided that’s what she wanted- either way the instruction was clear
    3. Whether to the court or to the Gardai or to her or to all 3, he admitted sexual assault (feeling breasts) while she was asleep -in addition, he was on top of her while she slept so it appears to be more than a gentle caress - we don’t have the full detail here (and may never have it or indeed she may never have it) but when she awoke it obviously affected her greatly -
    4. Finally, and actually quite simply, if you admit to fondling someone’s breast whilst they are asleep and they haven’t given you consent to do that, that is simply, sexual assault, and if they then pursue a criminal case against you, it’s inevitable you’ll be found guilty- I don’t see “reasonable doubt” here, at all


    The victim feels the way the victim feels and they took the course of action they took. The fact that another person may have felt differently about the event doesn’t come into play

    It’s a sad case; but hopefully there’s some learning here too for some people who read it



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭thefallingman


    Caroline Flack, smashes a lamp over her boyfriends head when he's asleep, get's arrested and then tops herself before she faces justice, now lauded on social media as a victim by women and someone who was hounded to suicide. Interesting comparison.

    #bekind



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 ✭✭Amenhotep


    Sad story, she regretted it, decided she would be vindictive and ruin the guys life over it.

    Whats gonna happen is guys will be afraid of approaching women in the future, will just lead to guys using hookers more imo ..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭foxsake


    i read the consent was for sexual intercourse - not for the foreplay activities that they did,.

    he didn't have sex with her or attempt it after her initial no to intercourse.

    he isn't a creep - well based on what is in the paper I don't see he didn't anything wrong.

    even if you argue he did wrong , the consequences do not fit any by any measure what he. he is now convicted as sexual assault. the prison (or not) is irrelevant - that is all society will see.

    that puts him on the same level as one of these dirtbags - the one who wasn't convicted of rape but sexual assault . is that fair ?


    if anything this case will make men wake up and lawyer up on this first mention that another party isn't happy after the event which is a terrible indictment of our country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I think whats going to start happening is that guys will just secretly have their phones on record all night.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭thefallingman


    one nights stands are always dangerous imo especially inviting those strangers to your house, male or female.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,684 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    That's a bit disingenuous. I don't think he was done for sexual assault for saying, "Hey are you awake? Fancy a ride?" He was done for starting while she was asleep. Not for waking her up.

    You didn't answer my questions. Based on this case, what would you teach your son about consen? And has the fact that the law found this guy guilty, impacted your opinion thst being unconscious affects consent?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Actually RTE have a long piece on it.



    The woman said she believed if society supported victims better, she would not have had to deal with such devastating losses. The only person responsible for the relationships and friendships she had lost was Ó Leidhin she said and yet she had been shamed and blamed because of what he did to her.

    I noticed this part of of it and she has absolutely every right to believe this but it does seem a little extreme to claim he's responsible for all her own personal relationships. I hope she can find some personal peace and healing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,996 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Demonize is a strong word, but yeah he's a creep, climbing on top of an unconscious women is creepy, Doing it to a woman who already told you no to sex is fcuking creepy.

    It could happen to any man, If only there was some way we could avoid it? Like is there any scenario where we won't be found guilty of sexually assaulting a woman? Anything at all?


    But hey, He stopped assaulting her when she woke up, what a hero.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,279 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    In the case from the facts I have seen I would not find guilty of sexual assault. I have a doubt and thats enough.

    There is no plausible route to come to that conclusion given the defendant admitted it. You can't consent when you are asleep, the law is crystal on that.

    As for the judge not tempering the victim impact statement, I wouldn't be too sure about that, I remember a more contentious case which revolved around not using a condom where the judge did just that.

    Mr Justice Butler noted the woman in her victim impact statement indicated she was in fear of the accused and afraid of him coming at her with a knife or sledgehammer. He said there had been no suggestion of any such violence or any violence at all other than the rape



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    I really, really didn't think that don't get on top of sleeping people unless you know how they will react was a hot take. It really isn't hard and is really f'in obvious. It is really, really simple.

    No I don't think it could happen to almost any man. My own friends are far, far smarter than that. As am I.


    Might in the morning means you find out then, you don't assume it is a yes and then react to the no. If something is a might you assume no until they say otherwise (this goes for anything, if someone says they might loan you some cash don't grab their wallet just to see if they say no).


    Yes she went to his bed but maybe she was interested then and changed her mind. Maybe she felt ill from drinking, maybe they went through foreplay, he was muck and killed the mood, maybe it was late and tiredness overtook interest. Honestly who gives a f. She is allowed to change her mind and staying in someone's bed is not a Carte Blanche.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,996 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    If a women performs oral sex on you, are you allowed slip it in her mouth when she's asleep?

    If your reaction to a woman waking up and telling you to stop is "sorry I'm horny" you are in fact a creep.

    He committed and was found guilty of sexual assault, there was a very easy way to avoid that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    my issue is there was not the blow by blow accounts you have, of the, "he said/did she said/did", "she said she posted etc." you have of Depp/his ex and Rooney/Vardy in Civil trials about ego and lost income of rich people!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭foxsake



    They went back to sleep. Later, Ó Leidhin gave the woman a lift home. The court heard they spoke later that day via a phone call and texts in which the woman expressed her unhappiness about what had happened between them. Ó Leidhin called over to her house that evening and they spoke for about an hour.

    this is from RTE but lacking in the indo - which I read initially.

    she took a lift home to her house - then had him back to her house the next night for "speaking". then waited a year to go to the gardai.

    sounds so weird to me .

    I'm actually stronger in my opinion that he did nothing wrong and this is vindictive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    she was so traumatized by the incident that she couldn't sleep in the weeks after it, but she somehow managed to go back to sleep after it had just happened

    weird



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    „Prosecuting counsel John Delaney said they agreed to differ about what had happened the night before and there was no contact between them after that. The woman reported the incident to gardaí in April 2019.“

    “This convicted man, used sexual violence as a method of violence towards me," she told the court. She said he had violated her body, her mind, her sense of self and her sense of security in the world. It had impacted, she said, on every facet of her life. The woman said the night of the assault was the last night she would ever go to sleep believing she was safe and the thought someone would sexually violate her while sleeping was beyond comprehension.“

    That’s a lot of drama for having reported the incident a year after the event, and after having agreed to differ on the matter. As stated earlier: a mockery..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Majority of sexual encounters occur with alcohol, you can't legally enter an agreement while in intoxicated, so most hook ups after the pub, are done by parties who legally can't consent



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Legally he's on the wrong side of this, which he's accepted. What emerged from this seems to be a much more complex collection of feelings and beliefs. He will get a sentence, which could be custodial, even though a suspended sentence might be the right choice on balance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Morning sex often starts by one or the other letting the other know they're horny.

    How tf does sex even happen these days if you have to consent to every little thing? 😂

    So a man and a woman are in bed and they start to kiss and she puts her hand down to a mans knob, guess that's assault so considering she never had consent?

    Stay safe out there lads, there's some absolute nutters out there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,786 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    That's fine. I'll just pull you up on it the next time and point out the hypocrisy if you criticise anyone for any bad behaviour if the person has not been convicted of a crime for that behaviour. I'll remind you that your position is that you can not express any negative sentiment towards that behaviour unless a crime is proven.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    the only winners here as far as i can see are the puritans.


    one liner driveby posts claiming this is a good example of a sexual assault conviction add nothing to the debate around what is and isnt a good case to have come before the courts.

    and crowing about the verdict looks as good now as raving about how unfair it was about paddy jackson being found not guilty did back then.

    the bar for reaching a courtroom needs to be higher in circumstances as blurry as this, and the ability to grade such occurrences at a low enough scale such that it reflects the circumstances is needed.

    nobody wants serious sexual assault to continue with its current pathetic rate of conviction but celebrating the blunt instrument idiotic application of the law in people's beds like this is not going to help that actually serious issue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,294 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Again, over-dramatizing it to paint him in a very bad light.

    You are not at all willing to see all the other mitigating circumstances. Even using word "unconscious" to bolster your take.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,786 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Edit: Apologies to Fandymo. Should take my own advice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Yer man mustn't have been told there was an expiration time from when she was perfectly happy for him to be all over her just a few hours before.

    What he did is a common move by both men and women to initiate sex after themselves waking up.

    I wonder what consent he gave to her to engage in sexual activity earlier in the night??



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭foxsake



    i can't agree even if I believed he was wrong legally (which I don't) that a sexual assault conviction is a reasonable or fair outcome.

    In the long run , a jail term is irrelevant as people will only see his conviction.

    which is the same as one of the lads got from the case I linked above .



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    She was asleep. That’s your expiration time. It’s common knowledge that someone can’t legally consent when they are sleeping. If they’re sleeping, don’t climb on top of them and grope their breasts.

    Its really not that difficult to comprehend, folks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    more rubbish... no conviction... no crime... sentiments have a little cry...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,279 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    On what legal basis is this conviction unsafe?

    Sure they were all fingers and thumbs a few hours earlier is moot.

    IMO it's definitely at the low end of the scale and I would be surprised if a custodial sentence was given, but if your claim is there was an error in law and the conviction is unsafe you'll have to offer evidence of this in the parameters of the law.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭thefallingman


    Would this case go to court if it was two gay men involved ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,786 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Well Pussyhands, there is a spectrum. You couldn't suggest that an agreement to accompany a man back to his place grants him immunity from prosecution for anything he does against the wishes of the girl.

    Consent can be withdrawn at any time. Even if you are in the middle of the act. If it is withdrawn, then you have to stop. You're can't do a Magnus Magnusson on it

    In this case it was never given. Regardless, the verdict seems harsh and out of proportion



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,351 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Just curious as to what was discussed when she met up with him at a later date for over an hour. Seems strange when you are traumatised, suicidal, unable to be near strangers etc. What was she hoping she would get from such a meeting?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    A lot of wives around the country should be quaking in their boots right now so considering it's common for a woman to wake up in the middle of the night and then wrap their arms around their husband. He didn't give consent so a lot of women in this country are sexual deviants according to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Can you kiss your wife goodbye while she's sleeping?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,786 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Don't worry. I do promise to pull you up on any thread you express a negative opinion against anyone's actions where they have not been criminally convicted for those actions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    “Have an oul' stab at reading the posts dude before jumping in headfirst and looking silly.” - I was agreeing with you.



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