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Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Likely some of them. Those children didn't rape themselves.

    Wasn't getting pregnant that cost them a lifetime of hardship. It was the church and state.



  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ya. Right. Imagine what their lives would have been like if they hadn’t had sex? Whether consensual or forced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Whats your point, if they never had sex they'd been worse off anyway?

    The church and state made peoples sex life their business and punished the women.

    Look it was indeed a different time. A time when the church, aided by the state, ruled. They committed atrocities. Saying others had a hand in some cases doesn't excuse them.

    If a girl was raped she was likely then locked up for life and beaten. Some church and government all right.

    Not like they could get abortions or buy condoms. I suppose that's on the family too.



  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    My point is that the unfortunate girls were in the homes because they were pregnant. Was that the fault of the church that you seem to hate or the state, that you equally hate, or the fault of the males who seduced/raped them?

    Many thousands of unmarried women were satisfied with their treatment in these dastardly homes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    All of the above.

    The often lifetime of confinement and abuse was by the church and state because the women got pregnant.

    Nothing excuses that.

    Do they cancel out the others? No.

    'Well they didn't beat and abuse all the women'. Its like defending a rapist because he didn't rape all the women.



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  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,659 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    If a girl was raped she was likely then locked up for life and beaten. Some church and government all right.


    But some weren't locked up. For example Peggy Mcarthy. Some families gave a damn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I would say so. Many gave a damn but bowed to pressure from The church and state. When the local priest, Garda and often doctor are all telling you to put your daughter in a home, you might give a damn and still do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,812 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Looks like the courts have found for the plaintiffs who were disputing that inept report. Verdict wasn't surprising, but nothing really has changed yet.


    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/1217/1267369-mother-and-baby-homes/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    They really can't help themselves. 2021 and still beholden to the church and complicit in its crimes.

    What will it be, "lessons learned"? Won't cut it. A deliberate whitewash. We need help from international bodies. The Irish state is either unwilling or incapable of tackling this. We've a religious organisation with affiliates responsible for the mass burial, (and possible murder due to neglect or beatings) of children and women in unmarked plots, let operate and do business. It's disgusting.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    You are still trying to blame others for the atrocities of the church. That if they hadn't been there they wouldn't have been abused.

    Again, the only thing responsible for the church's actions is the church. They chose money and power over their "morals" and those in their care.

    Your attempts to deflect from this do not work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,236 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Yes, they were in those homes because they were pregnant and needed help. The sad truth is that their last refuge turned out to be anything but helpful. By all accounts, many never told their families because of the stigma attached to being pregnant and unmarried, and that stigma of shame was still around until relatively recently.

    How awful for those mothers to be abandoned by partners or families and then to be treated as sinners by the church who was supposed to be all forgiving and compassionate and would care for them in their hour of need. Well they were certainly let down there too.

    The same church then went on to sell or give their children to others that the church deemed more suitable parents because they had a paper to say they were married. I've read that single mothers were told their child would have a better life with two parents but can't remember ever reading any reports of children being taken from widows, so that was just a rubbish excuse to validate what they were doing.

    The church/nuns either sold those babies abroad or were the agencies involved in arranging adoptions so they, and the state, were wholly responsible for what happened to those mothers and their children.

    It was all about the church's stance on morality and the image of holy catholic ireland. Unmarried women having babies and keeping them?? No, not allowed, we know best, give their babies to morally superior catholics who obey the rules, that'll teach them.

    What the church and state did to those mothers who had their children taken is so horrific, that I cant even begin to understand how they coped with the trauma. How they managed to rebuild their lives and go on to live relatively normal lives without any counselling or support, speaks volumes about their courage, resilience and strength of character.

    The fact that our government is still treating them so badly by refusing to provide information or assistance to find out what happened their children is a disgrace. It is also unbelievable that those children who were adopted or sold cant find their personal information about heritage and biological families, a basic human right. It makes me ashamed that this is still being done in my name as an Irish citizen. Sickening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Very sad. No need for this prolonged anguish.

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Legislation on adoptees' right of access to information is on the government's agenda. It's just going to take more time before the Oireachtas passes it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭StarryPlough01


    I found the 3 steps to complete the two Tuam Mother and Baby Home Alliance petitions very confusing. At each step you are confronted with change.org asking for e.g., donations, to sign other petitions, whatever...

    One has to skip / bypass all of that and go down to the bottom of each webpage until you have completed their workflow. 

    Support the Mother & Baby Home Survivors/ Boarded out, Call to ‘Re-address the Redress’


    Support Call for the Immediate Exhumation of Children's Human Remains at Tuam M&B home





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,812 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Taoiseach says no plans to expand the redress scheme, nor do anything about the report, despite court findings. Basically, 'too bad.' We really need the UN to run this investigation and redress scheme.

    Taoiseach: 'No plans' to open redress to all mother and baby homes survivors 

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40775589.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,236 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    This article questions how the government can justify the Mica Redress scheme of €2.3bn for 7500 houses but has capped the Mother & Baby home redress scheme at €800m for 34000 people.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40770795.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    We've a mass grave of children and likely women. No records or cause recorded. If I were Taoiseach I'd hire a group medical experts and exhume the whole area. I'd start a criminal investigation and take hold of the land until its concluded.

    We have FF and FG turning a blind eye once again and wanting it to go away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,236 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    You're right that the whole area of Tuam and Bessborough where burials are supposed to have happened, should be excavated.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/bessborough-remains-4595823-Apr2019/

    Is it really credible that 800 childrens bodies in Tuam and 836 in Bessborough were disposed of in an old sewage system and no government agency, local registrar/dispensary doctor or local clergy didn't ask questions for decades? From anything I've read, the nuns treatment of mothers left a lot to be desired but it beggars belief that infants and young children who died would be disposed of like that. According to the journal article linked, nuns testified that they had no knowledge of children being buried but someone knows what happened and the dept Foreign Affairs must have records of travel documents or passports for the children who were sold/sent to the US and other places.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Better late than never I suppose. Well done to all involved in pressurising the government to act.

    Work to identify buried babies at Tuam mother and baby home could begin by end of year (irishexaminer.com)

    Work to identify buried babies at Tuam mother and baby home could begin by end of year.

    Work at the site of the notorious Tuam mother and baby home could begin by the end of the year, as a new Bill to allow the exhumation and identification of bodies at such institutions enters the Dáil.

    The Government on Tuesday gave its backing to a long-awaited Bill it promised would deliver “dignity” to children buried at the site of the former mother and baby home.

    Mr O’Gorman said that what happened at Tuam “is a stain on our national conscience”.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    5 years to organise is awful. These religious orders should be shut down. FF/FG should be shunned for their generational roles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,236 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    It's about time and hopefully the people and families affected by what happened in Tuam, Bessborough and other institutions will get information and answers although it is too late for many senior citizens who have passed on.

    TBH, i will be surprised if they find remains of 800 babies in Tuam or Bessborough, imo many of those children were sent abroad. The organisations, and a lot of powerful individuals connected to running those centres around the country, were not bothered by forged birth registrations, so its not hard to believe they would falsify death registrations too.

    Hopefully the Dept of FA will also be involved in the investigations so there can be cross referencing of all passports and travel documents issued for children from those centres. The immigration authorities and the church hierarchy in the USA or any other country, should be obligated to co-operate in tracing children sent out of Ireland by the nuns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Ireland's Dirty Laundry - how we made the new RTÉ documentary (rte.ie)

    Superb two part documentary on the Magdalene Laundries. Survivors of the Magdalene Laundries system share their experiences. Tough to watch. Brave brave women. They are still suffering.

    Available on RTE Player.

    Ireland's Dirty Laundry - RTÉ Player (rte.ie)

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I can't believe there is a mass grave of dead babies laying there and its still not been exhumed. And do they think it was a one off? I'd be sending people with ground penetrative radar to every religious orders grounds in the country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    RTE INVESTIGATES: Ireland's Illegal Adoptions is on tonight at 9:30pm

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4 Sertorius


    It amazes me how people distrust the church yet beg, like a battered spouse, to increase the power of a state that permitted this to happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,812 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Dafuq are you on about, 'new' boards member. What begging? Fortunately people are moving to get the RCC out of our lives, not fast enough but at least some progress. Still plenty of distance to go.


    And, this is what amazes you? Really? That the church is distrusted in Ireland? Does that make you unhappy?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Campaigners renew call for CPO of suspected children's burial site at Bessborough (irishexaminer.com)

    Campaigners have renewed calls for the compulsory purchase of a suspected children’s burial site on the former Bessborough mother and baby home estate in Cork after it was afforded certain zoning protections in the new city development plan.

    The Cork Survivors and Supporters Alliance (CSSA) said the privately owned site won’t be fully safe until it is in public ownership.

    The final report of the Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation was unable to account for the burial places of some 859 infants who died at Bessborough or in hospital after being transferred from Bessborough between 1922 and 1998.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,799 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Great news.

    The government has today (29 March 2022) approved high-level proposals for a National Centre for Research and Remembrance. The National Centre, to be located on the site of the former Magdalen Laundry in Sean MacDermott St in Dublin city centre, will stand as a National Memorial to honour all those who were resident in Mother and Baby Homes, Industrial Schools, Reformatories, Magdalen Laundries and related institutions.

    As a site of national conscience, the National Centre for Research and Remembrance will comprise:

    a) a museum and exhibition space, the development of which will be led by the National Museum of Ireland

    b) a research centre and repository of records related to institutional trauma in the 20th century which will form part of the National Archives, and

    c) a place for reflection and remembrance


    Fair play to Minister O’Gorman.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭StarryPlough01


    Frank Brehany

    MAKES A FINAL BID TO BRING CHANGE TO THE BIRTH INFORMATION & TRACING BILL 2022

    The Members of SALI appeal to the Irish Senate!


    *The Irish Senate can introduce important changes to the Birth Information & Tracing Bill through their "cream list" amendments process - we call on them to make those changes*


    SALI, the Separation, Appropriation & Loss Initiative, has provided commentary on the Birth Information and Tracing Bill (BITB), since it was first published by Minister O’Gorman. The latest version of the BITB was offered as a compromise to the many voices of concern that had been raised against its provisions.

    SALI has noted the Minister’s intent on forcing through a number of provisions, following the publication of the Commission of Investigation’s report into Mother and Baby Homes. This is being done with the apparent aim of bringing about resolution to a number of injustices to the Women and Children, who had suffered within these Institutions. The government’s ambitious timetable has left little time for discussion, analysis and change. Indeed, SALI has noted how many valuable amendments offered by campaigners and TD’s have been rejected; unless changes are made, it is the opinion of SALI that the BITB will create serious imbalances and bring about further challenges in the courts.

    To that end, SALI has noted that as the BITB is now entering its final stage of scrutiny, there still remains the possibility that valuable changes to the proposed legislation could be made by Senators, utilising the “cream list” method of importing important clause changes. SALI has already written to all Senators in the Oireachtas, enclosing their copy of their suggested changes to the Bill. Such changes include:

    The Language & Opening Statement of the BITB;

    Substantial changes to Part 2 of the Bill;

    Comment on the limiting methodology of the BITB;

    The requirement to remove the need for formal Information Sessions;

    Warnings about the nature & essence of historical ‘informed consent’;

    Examination of the GDPR and the Relevant Body;

    The current failure of the Stakeholder Advisory Group;

    The requirement to extend the rights of the entire family line;

    The absolute necessity of taking possession of Church & Religious Records and the failure of the current clause;

    The fundamental error & failure to recognise and deal with the obvious cross-border issues, and

    Further commentary on the recent O’Mahoney recommendations

    It is SALI’s opinion, that the Irish government has some way to go if it intends to deliver on the Rights of those who were subject to adoptions and/or illegal adoptions.

    Breeda Murphy states:

    "Heritage and family connection matters quite a lot in Ireland. Imagine growing up not knowing your clan, to whom you belong. That is the lived and living experience for many of our Irish citizens. It is not due to the fact that records do not exist, but from a concentrated effort by both State and Church to conceal identities from adults, who wish to find their birth family. The reasons for withholding such evidence are unclear but ownership is power and in this case that power is exerted in a most cruel fashion”.

    She adds:

    "My relative who will be 89 in May of this year, had his details, birth date and surname changed and so it would have been virtually impossible to find him via documentary sources alone even if the State allowed that. DNA technologies unlocked the puzzle of his birth and early life, and records were held within the Council, the hospital and Church where he was baptised, but were unavailable from the Religious Order that ran the Orphanage where he was placed. It took fourteen months of painstaking genealogy based research, with the help of extended family trees here and overseas to provide David with his true identity and a heritage that we can trace back hundreds of years”.

    She concludes:

    "This legislation must acknowledge the State’s duty of care to its Citizens without distinction. It is a ‘processor’ of information pertaining to adoption, fostering of boarded out children and must allow unfettered access on request, to enable family reunification within a clear supportive framework, in acknowledgment and recognition of human rights applicable. We have the opportunity now to right an injustice, let us ensure the Bill enables rather than restricts those seeking birth and early life documentation and information”.

    Eunan Duffy states:

    “Closed, illegal and forced adoptions are still in operation in parts of this modern world, even in the misnomered "civilised" world. Adoption and other 'care' arrangements have been used predominantly within a inter-country and domestic trafficking system to satisfy the needs of others over the best interests and needs of the child too often, and this system can be likened to a 'witness protection program' where a new identity is created at the expense of a personal and familial history, heritage, culture, bio-physiology”.

    He adds:

    Withholding the truth and identity, concealing illegal and criminal activity yet pervades society as facilitators and profiteers remain at large in their malignant complicity”.

    He concludes:

    “This BITB compounds the removal of autonomy, agency, integrity and human rights afforded to the non-adopted and falls way short of internationally-recognised and inherent human and moral rights. Access to records that restore truth and provenance, genesis and humanity should not be debatable nor denied to any individual. Shared and mixed information is owned, relevant and entitled to each person when it affects the very being and existence of each person. Secrecy, privacy, truth and disclosure must be considered on a case-by-case basis with no arbitrary ultimate veto afforded to the mother nor adopted person. Skilled and best-informed practitioners who must now take a 'maximalist-disclosure' approach must be the only way forward. Knowing what we know, being who we are, living the truth of where we come from and making personal choices based on our information is the basic right of all”.

    Frank Brehany states:

    “It was disappointing at the Committee stage to witness the failure to adopt and perhaps consider the value of the many amendments that were offered. I can truly understand the desire for any Minister to bring about the necessary change in any given area, but the speed at which the processes stemming from the Mother and Baby Home report, will I fear present further difficulties down the road if government doesn’t take the time to carefully consider the serious issues before them. I am proud to be the co-author of the SALU report on the BITB and sincerely hope that Irish Senators will give good consideration to these important issues and develop a “cream list” of amendments. If they do so, they will send a powerful message to government, that getting it right now, not only delivers Justice for the many adoptees, but will also ensure that less legal risks will present themselves for future governments”

    http://www.frankbrehany.com/media/1200/sali-report-bitb-2022-17322-final.pdf

    The Separation, Appropriation & Loss Initiative: An Scaradh, Toiliú agus Cailleadh Tionscnamh

    Injustice | Recognition | Restoration |Accountability

    ________________________________________________________________

    Commentary on the Birth Information and Tracing Bill, 2022. An examination, analysis and recommendations

    Authors: Breeda Murphy, Eunan Duffy & Frank Brehany



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