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The Curious Case of Violet-Anne Wynne

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Violet Anne has left Sinn Fein and made reference to this.

    How exactly could that be described as "harmless banter"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,470 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    It is not "harmless banter" because Violet Anne has made reference to it. To be harmless banter you need both people involved. This is bullying.

    The person who felt this was an ok comment to be made to a pregnant women really should be fired on the spot. Any company in the World would sack them straight away. Even if it was harmless banter, which to confirm this wasn't



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,470 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I know people who would call me an 'effin eejit' if I did something I hadn't planned. That is all I mean here. We don't know the situation or context.

    The person who said it has been accused of being 'misogynistic' without knowing the facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Sorry I don't understand what you mean? are you saying it is ok with workplace bullying?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You really don't get it. You cannot say things like that to a pregnant colleague. It is pure sexual harrassment, sexism and misogyny, and it doesn't matter whether the person saying it was male or female.

    No situation or context can make that all right to say.


    You say that because this is something that can equally be said to a father or mother that it can't be misogynistic. That is absolute nonsense. That you don't understand the difference between saying that to a male or female (remember, neither of them are parents yet which shows the poverty of the language you use) in that context says an awful lot about you.



  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Say you’re female, in a new stressful job a couple of years. You unexpectedly find yourself pregnant and go to a senior colleague to inform her and her response is “you effin eegit”. Try for one minute to imagine how an upset, hormonal mother to be feels on hearing this from someone higher up the ranks than her? In any workplace it’s unacceptable. Harmless banter has no place in the workplace when dealing with such a sensitive issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Trying to pass off standard political party activities as 'sinister'. Every party has a HQ and a press officer. We know what happens when politicians speak off the cuff with no handlers. 'SF don't like white men' comes to mind :)

    There's no narrative outside of what VAW said and is not being stopped repeating. I trust on your road to Damascus you've sent her a heartfelt apology.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,470 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No. I am not. If it was bullying then they have to go.

    But the unnamed person also has a right to explain.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    No they don't. You still say "if"? Violet Anne has confirmed what she was called and this is bullying.

    In any organisation it doesn't matter what bulls**t excuse the person in question comes up with, they would be fired on the spot.

    Do you think if a man came in and kissed a woman in the office without her permission he should be allowed to explain?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,470 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Not in my experience. Both people would be asked for their version and a decision made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152



    Standard political party activities? Omerta instructions from the centre?

    As I said already, my criticism has always been of Sinn Fein.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Most employers nowadays don't do kangaroo courts where the complainant is made face down the bully.

    Either the remark was made or it wasn't. If there is a conflict of evidence, the bully might escape with a warning, but if the remark is verified, they have to go. No versions, no context.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,470 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The proceedure:

    How to make an informal complaint

    Your employer should deal with your complaint immediately. The company can appoint a Contact Person to act as a first step for employees. The Contact Person would not be involved in investigating the complaint.

    Initial informal Process

    You should begin by making it clear to the person that you find their behaviour unacceptable and undermining. You could also put it in writing, if you prefer. Focus on what they have done (offending acts) and the effects it has on you.

    Your employer may have a Contact Person named in the anti-bullying policy, who can give you information on the process.

    The person responsible for managing the complaint should keep a brief written record of the issue and agreed outcomes and dates.

    Secondary informal process

    The secondary informal process can be used if the initial informal process is not successful or your employer thinks it is not appropriate for the seriousness of the complaint.

    Your employer can nominate a separate person to investigate the complaint. This person should not be the Contact Person. The nominated person should have the appropriate training and experience and be familiar with the procedures. They may be a supervisor, manager or someone in authority within your organisation.

    The nominated person responsible for managing the complaint should keep a record of all stages of the investigation. You should check your employer’s anti-bullying policy for the steps to follow under the secondary informal process.

    Mediation

    The WRC provides a mediation service, if both parties agree to it. The Mediator's Institute of Ireland (MII) have a list of accredited meditators that also provide private workplace mediation services. You get more details from mii.ie. Mediation can help to resolve issues informally before a formal process is initiated.

    For more details on the informal process, see the Code of Practice for Employers and Employees on the Prevention and Resolution of Bullying at Work (pdf).

    If these informal approaches are not enough to resolve the issue and in situations where the bullying continues, you may need to consider making a formal complaint.

    How to make a formal complaint

    You should report the bullying to a manager.

    Your employer's policy on bullying should clearly set out:

    • What will happen when a formal complaint is made
    • How the complaint will be investigated
    • Who will carry out the investigation taking into account issues of confidentiality and the rights of both parties

    The company’s investigator should meet with you and any witnesses or relevant other people on a confidential basis. You can bring a work colleague or trade union representative with you to this meeting. This applies to both the complainant and the person complained of.

    Your employer should keep records and copies of written statements should be given to both parties.

    Appealing the investigation

    Your employer’s Anti-bullying policy should include an appeals process. It should set out the time period for making an appeal. The person hearing the appeal should have had no involvement in the investigation.

    You should be supported during the formal complaints process. For example through the Contact Person or advisory support services, where possible.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,370 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub



    You are correct - There are people I would feel safe/comfortable making that kind of comment to and those that I wouldn't .

    I think the point being made is that Ms. Wynne clearly did not see it as funny even if the person saying it was saying it in jest.

    If she felt it was simply "banter" she wouldn't have brought it up in the interview as described.

    Now , whether or not she is being overly sensitive or over reacting is not for any of us to say from this remove , but I think based on the information available Ms. Wynne clearly took offence to what was said.

    At best , it was a poorly judged comment from someone that perhaps didn't really know Ms. Wynne well enough to make said comment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I don't think that there are many people out there who would have any confidence in the ability of Sinn Fein to handle any complaints of sexual harrassment and bullying such as this one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,470 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You are correct. I would be of the same view.

    But I certainly wouldn't be calling the person who said it misogynistic or a bully either, without hearing their version of events.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    "Common terms we use to describe pregnancy are laced with demeaning attitudes toward women."

    "Many of the words I found evoked the same spirit as knocked up, the objectifying viewpoint that a pregnant woman is damaged, lacking freedom or failing. These include phrases like banged up and jacked up, as well as descriptions like in a fix, up a tree and shot in the tail; figures of speech like she’s out of circulation and she’s gone and done it; as well as the more succinct bound, sewed up and poisoned."

    "Others fell into the euphemism category (in a certain conditionthat way), suggesting that pregnancy’s defining feature is being an embarrassment."

    I think we can safely add "effin eejit" to the list. And I would be calling the person who said it misogynistic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,470 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A reaction to having what she herself said was an unplanned pregnancy and a shock, without the context to that reaction is nothing anyone can proclaim about with certainty.

    It could have been any number of types of reaction, a bullying one included. No surprise you are finding a shinner guilty without knowing that context.



  • Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jesus, grasping at straws there, Francie.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I know all the main parties behave in the same manner. When FG take direction form the same people advise the UK Tories, is that sinister?

    That's just not true. Her husband isn't in SF. It was repaying the chaiity you chased up. It was her views on vaccinations would be the cause of women dying of cervical cancer you said. Just because she was in SF doesn't mean all the things you said about her can be excused.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    This reads like you are pitching a comedy to Netflix.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,470 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If you sent this card to a woman would that make you a 'misogynist'?


    There are all sorts of contexts it could have been said in, is the point I am making.

    No suprise that the gallows are out with those who immediately get them out when a certain party is alleged to have done something, no surprise at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    I again remind you that the lady has left Sinn Fein and pointed to this comment and bullying. How is someone not guilty? she has been drive out of the party. Please can you tell me how you think anything about this story is right?

    If Leo went in and said the same to Helen McEntee and she left the party, what would you say then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,470 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I would say Leo was rude and offensive. To call it bullying or misogyny I would have to know both sides to make a fair assessment.

    We have had this debate before, you cannot convict on an allegation. You can have an opinion and we all do on many things, but you cannot categorically claim someone is a bully, rapist, fraudster, leaker, etc without hearing the alleged's side of the story.

    The woke and metoo generation seem to think they have won that right, but they haven't and shouldn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    She said she left over being denied extra supports and assistants. Also that MLMD never congratulated her. The 'effin ejit' was the icing on the cake i imagine. I hope its delt with regardless.

    When a FG TD pulled a female TD onto his lap in the Dail because he'd had a few, nothing came of it. Certainly nobody was 'horrified'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    What has a FG TD got to do with this?

    In fact I think you will find the entire nation was "horrified" on recollection, but still no idea why you think that is a valid point? very strange comment



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    I am sure you are just posting this for a reaction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Are you seriously suggesting that somebody would send that card to a woman with an unexpected pregnancy? Like, seriously? That is the defence???!!!???



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The "effin eejit" was the icing on the cake? And you know this, how? Do you have insights into how a pregnant woman would react to that remark for an unexpected pregnancy?


    Whataboutery is relevant when you are making an apt comparison. I guess that you see the two incidents as comparable. Seeing as YOU brought it up, do you think that the culprit in this case should do the same as Tom Barry - make a public apology and offer to resign? If you don't think the SF culprit should do the same, are you a hypocrite for bringing it up?

    I bet you never thought it would boomerang on you like that.



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