Ian Duncan Smith

Cork · 28-10-2003 08:07PM #1

Ian Duncan Smith

In a country that lost Rory Quinn +Michael Noonan after the last general election - charging leaders does not have much of an impact reviving the fortunes of a political party.

The Conservatives are a much devided party - i never had much time for them - But I think Ian Duncan Smith should stay.

www.backids.com

mike65 · 28-10-2003 08:28PM

The British Labour party sure think that! The Tory party has been in decline since they could'nt bring themselves to elect Micheal Heseltine part leader in 1990.

Mike.

dathi1 · 28-10-2003 08:30PM

Yes but the westland affair makes a bags of it for him. IDS is out and Doris Karlof is in.

flogen · 28-10-2003 10:52PM

what i find so funny is how he tried to turn from 'nice guy' to 'hard as nails' in the space of a week. that to me showed he was getting abit desperate.
The fact is, if i was a voter in England, Id certainly vote Lib Dem, they may be an echo of Labour, but they took the best stance on the war, they seem to have some good policies and (although this is'nt as important as good ideas) out of the three their leader seems the most trustworthy and likable.
I mean Blair has proven time and time again that hes a wolf in sheeps clothing, hes a bare-faced liar and his links with Bush only serve to make him look worse.
and IDS is a weak speaker, with a serious identity crisis, no human features what-so-ever(not even false ones, anyone see him having a pint with students???) and no ability to lead or to control a party.

Kennedy seems to have full support of his party, some good and realistic ideas and I predict the Lib Dems and not the Torys will gain most from the loss of trust in Labour in the next election (that is to say once nothing amazingly bizarre happens between now and then)

Flogen

shotamoose · 29-10-2003 11:14AM

Originally posted by flogen
what i find so funny is how he tried to turn from 'nice guy' to 'hard as nails' in the space of a week.

Yeah, his image management has not been the best. In an effort to appear tough, driven yet humorous, he responded at the Tory conference to a question about taking up shooting that "The only real shooting I want to do over the next year-and-a-half is shooting Tony Blair". Which just sounds psychotic.

People in Britain now seem to treat the Tories as something to be pitied and laughed at rather than hated or feared. And when that documentary about racism in the police was shown, a reporter on BBC's 6 o'clock news finished off his item on it by saying that "even the Tories have condemned this latest example of racism" or something similar ...

Éomer of Rohan · 29-10-2003 11:22AM

It's going to be Howard getting it - but since this is almost certainly going to be their choice, I think IDS should stay - from an entirely neutral point of view.

The man has a flare for the dramatic and in fighting for his political life he has made quite a few good speeches - it's a problem though that this stops when he tries to argue about every day issues - and even more of a problem that the press are being highly unsympathetic to the Conservative Party in general.

I was listening to Radio Five Live yesterday evening between about two and six (yes we student's have nothing better to do lol) and it appears that the more vociferous members of the tory party want Portillo (backed by 56% in the poll of the public in general) or they want Ken Clarke, (backed by 27% of the same poll, in which IDS scored 7%). In my opinion both of the above have had their shot and screwed it - Ken Clarke has come to be far too pro-Euro to be accepted by the core of conservatives and Michael Portillo...well, where to begin eh? So, given that Clarke and Portillo aren't actually going to stand for leadership (at this point) I would say that by the end of the day it will be Howard leading the Tories (and boy but TB got off lightly on Prime Minister's Questions didn't he?!)

The division among the Tories is nothing new - it was division among the Tories that spawned Major's unification attempt with 'Back to Basics' which if I remember correctly led to a leadership attempt by John Redwood. It is heightened however that President Tony has been 'doing a Democrat' as Michael Moore would inevitably describe it - adopting more and more policies that were once the dividing point between Labour and Tory - and the best example of this is the utterly ridiculous and racist new legislation brought in by David Blunkett.

In order to clarify the above statement, allow me to point out that foreign people are not going to be particularly well informed on the current passport legislation in the UK - especially if most of them are illiterate and being smuggled into the country illegally; how the bloody hell then is a prison sentence of up to two years going to help things? Things like THAT are traditionally what the Tories have propounded - but New Labour have pinched them and in the process have done it in a new more flashy more media friendly way, and the press lap at their heels for it.

Tha Gopher · 29-10-2003 07:42PM

The main fault he has had is that he cannot get himself on television. Before last week he would be on the news maybe once in a fortnight. Nothing he ever said to Blair managed to make it onto the news. Some might say the news organisations are pro Labour(and seeing as not one news report last night mentioned Blair being booed at those television awards in their reports I would be inclined to think so too)
But he squandered so many chances to savage Blair that he is simply too quiet. Where was he when Robin Cook claimed that Blair knew Iraq couldnt pose a significant threat? It was up to him to keep this story in the news. He didnt,and most of the public have long forgotten it. He fails to constantly remind the public what a liar Blair is. He has just missed too many good opportunities to bring him down.

mike65 · 29-10-2003 07:43PM

Has anyone else wondered about the real-estate the the Irish meedja have given over to what is a second tier political story from another country? I know that the
party that governs the UK is important to this sceptic Isle
for various reasons but it feels like overkill to me. I bet Fine Girl wish they could get this sort of coverage in the UK...!

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan · 29-10-2003 07:51PM

Quoted from Mike 65
sceptic Isle

LOL.

Quoted from Mike 65
Fine Girl

LMAO

Quoted from The Gopher
But he squandered so many chances to savage Blair that he is simply too quiet. Where was he when Robin Cook claimed that Blair knew Iraq couldnt pose a significant threat?

He didn't want to rock the boat in case Britain didn't go to war in which case he undermines the whole basis of his party's foreign policy; it's alright now for him to put the boot in but he knew precisely the significance of Robin Cook's revelations and failed to pounce on them because that would have set the party line in stringent contrast to the pro-war vote that they took in Parliament. Conservatives stand for a strong Britain in world affairs and being the Pinky to America's Brain is how they manage this facade - again, something they do not wish to upset by allowing America to go it alone.

dahamsta · 29-10-2003 08:24PM

He's gone.

mike65 · 29-10-2003 08:27PM

Cue six months in-fighting...

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan · 29-10-2003 08:29PM

90 votes to 75

That is terrible - and one majorly divided party. I actually feel sorry for the guy despite the fact that he represents one of the most right wing parties in Britain.

As for six months of in-fighting, the heavies haven't really put their head above the parapet...yet.

secret_squirrel · 29-10-2003 08:53PM

its typical behaviour of the current tory party, just when it they start looking vaguely electable again and are making gains in the polls they press the self-destruct yet again.

Personally I feel sorry for IDS, ok politically he was a bit of a lightweight and an obvious compromise candidate for leader but they have finally managed to cobble together some vote winning policies, and I think they might have come close at the next election. Now Im sure most of their divisions that IDS managed to get put on the backburner will come to the fore once more. Cue another 4 years of spin and that inane grin.

Éomer of Rohan · 29-10-2003 08:56PM

Because Labour are just itching for a Euro based fight which will pull the Tories apart limb from limb - which is why I thin Ken Clarke is a good compromise for Tories; Britain will join Europe like it or not and with KC in charge, they have an electable leader and someone who can criticise the Euro but push the inevitability of it and cut a really good deal for the UK.

spongebob · 29-10-2003 09:50PM

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Britain will join Europe like it or not and with KC in charge, they have an electable leader

Ken probably wont apply, Portaloo is the other electable Tory leader except that ......

Howard will get the boot just after the next general election after the Tories storm to third place in the polls.... my prediction.

M

Capt'n Midnight · 29-10-2003 10:21PM

IMHO Maggie & co. made the tories unelectable for a generation, so it as long as Labour don't screw up it doesn't matter if they have a leader...

If you look at the effect of first past the post - (ignoring the votes from NI.) the number of seats rises exponentially with the % of vote - for about 20-25% more votes you get 10 times as many seats. 10% increase in votes gets you about three times as many seats...

My preferred result would be with Lib-Dems holding the balance of power - preferably but not necessarily with labour..

Bring Back Boris !

dahamsta · 29-10-2003 10:30PM

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Bring Back Boris !

LOL

sceptre · 29-10-2003 10:33PM

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
90 votes to 75

That is terrible - and one majorly divided party.

It is. If I gave a damn about the future of the Tories (word of Irish origin, go figure:D) I'd say that it's better for IDS to lose 90-75 than to win 83-82. At least the vote was such that Michael Spicer probably didn't have to grimace when announcing the result.

SkyNoos will be in their element now after their IDS Countdown clock being proved right.

mike65 · 29-10-2003 11:17PM

It already looks like Michael Howard will get the nod unopposed...he'll win no new votes for the Tories esp if he starts banging on about the Euro and soveignty. I suspect most ppl have had enough of that for a lifetime.

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan · 29-10-2003 11:29PM

The problem is that IDS was a compromise candidate between the Euro-divided sides of the Tories (which is really part of a larger economic ideological split fostered by Thatcher) and effectively so is Howard - the Tories have to resolve that issue before they can then go to the country. Either that or try and knock labour back into the left wing lol.

dahamsta · 29-10-2003 11:30PM

Originally posted by sceptre
word of Irish origin, go figure

Interesting. Enlightenment please.

mike65 · 29-10-2003 11:36PM

Er double post sort of....

mike65 · 29-10-2003 11:37PM

As ppl insist on saying - Google is your friend -

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/pursuit

Mike.

dahamsta · 30-10-2003 12:50AM

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=tory

...maybe?

I did Google, but it's such a common term. Sulk.

Thanks Mike,
adam

sceptre · 30-10-2003 01:02AM

Originally posted by dahamsta
Interesting. Enlightenment please.

During the Exclusion crisis (when James II succeeded Charles II as king of that island to the east of us), the defenders of Crown supremacy took to name-calling those whom they accused of dragging the country back to a civil war as Scots-Presbyterian outlaws or "Whiggamores" and the Whigs returned the compliment by claiming that behind the disingenuous arguments to stand by Church and throne, their adversaries were nothing more than Irish-Catholic rebels or "Tories", from the Gaelic toraighe, meaning a bog-trotter or bandit.

(ripped from Simon Schama's A History of Britain, Vol 2, The British Wars 1603-1776. I have /never/ used the word "disingenuous")

Seems the Tories have always been regarded as thieves.

dahamsta · 30-10-2003 10:32AM

Glad I asked, thanks sceptre.

I have used the word disingenuous, and I'm not ashamed of doing so. But then I'm a pretentious wanker.

adam

Redleslie · 30-10-2003 02:48PM

The conservatives can't make Michael Howard leader surely?? If they do, it's the end of their ridiculous party, unless they just know they're going to lose the next election or two and want someone to take all the blame.

Go Figure! · 30-10-2003 04:09PM

Yes, if the Conservatives think that Michael Howard is going to change their fortunes then they are seriously mistaken!

secret_squirrel · 30-10-2003 07:35PM

Actually I think Michael Howard might surprise you, especially if as it seems to be tending towards, he'll get the job without contest. He's got enough 'presence' to get media attention away from Blair and he's enough of a heavyweight to keep most of his own party in line. He's got it made if him and Ken Clarke come to a deal. I reckon Ken Clarke will get one of the major shadow cabinet roles. Chancellor or Home office.

Howard also has a reputation as a man who's prepared to take a position and stick to it. He has a reputation of calling a spade a spade, something I think the Uk public might go for after 8 years of labour spin.

mike65 · 30-10-2003 08:25PM

Originally posted by dahamsta
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=tory

...maybe?

I did Google, but it's such a common term. Sulk.

Thanks Mike,
adam

Doh! That site is deadly as every word in a defintion
is hyperlinked to its own defintion...hence the balls up!

Mike.

Cork · 31-10-2003 09:30PM

Originally posted by Go Figure!
Yes, if the Conservatives think that Michael Howard is going to change their fortunes then they are seriously mistaken!

No, I disagee.

The Conservatives are one of the most successful partys in the world.

Labour has embraced many free economics principles which is a great thing.

But - opposition partys are needed & their time will come again.

Ian Duncan Smith

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