Energy infrastructure

josip · 14-01-2022 7:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476192#Comment_118476192

Sounds like snake oil to me. Even if you constrict the aperture to increase the wind speed, you'll still have the same mass of air passing through overall blade surface area an thus the same limit on the amount of power capable of being generated?

https://www.ecohome.net/guides/3605/small-wind-turbines-for-homes-which-are-best/

Capt'n Midnight · 14-01-2022 7:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475497#Comment_118475497

No one expects wind 24/7 or the sun to shine at night. They do however, expect nuclear 24/7

As of 14 Jan 2022 11.30hrs, EDF UK only have 6 out of 13 reactors on Nominal full load. That's embarrassing.

If only they'd started replacing them in 2011. Oh wait. They did.

For the price of one nuclear power station (£23/€27) we could have had five times the installed wind capacity and it would have provided 50% of our power even at that pathetic % of installed capacity.

Also enough would have been generated over the weekend we'd could have easily supplied the missing 50% from storage too. That's brilliant.

magicbastarder · 14-01-2022 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476229#Comment_118476229

cheers - the one in the article i posted is pretty much the first example given when they start laying out the warning signs to watch out for.

magicbastarder · 14-01-2022 9:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476275#Comment_118476275

just doing some maths on this - say a wind of 8m/s (which is just shy of 30km/h) - if you had a 'collecting area' of 1sqm, you'd be looking at 8 cubic metres of air you'd be pulling the power from every second. that air would weigh ~10Kg; so would have a total kinetic energy of 320J, i.e. the theoretical max power delivered by 10Kg of air at 8m/s dumping all its kinetic energy would be 320W.

halve that efficiency, and halve the area from which you're collecting the wind, and you're down to 80W. to collect half the kinetic energy from wind with a half square metre device (roughly what the one above seems to be), and you'd need a 100km/h wind to generate the claimed 1kW? or is that how it works?

Markcheese · 14-01-2022 10:24pm

It's bonkers in a way to say installed solar is x , or nuclear costs y ,and wind z -

They're part of the grid - and other systems for them to work effectively -

All 3 would need some level of energy storage -

All need a level of reserve , and levels of spinning reserve -

And all have levels of public unpalatability ...-

14-01-2022 10:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118472940#Comment_118472940

That’s mostly cooking, heating, cooling and washing. Consuming less would mean more home efficiency.

wind is pretty bad today inland but reasonable offshore.

Sam Russell · 14-01-2022 10:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477293#Comment_118477293

Or more insulation, heat recovery ventilation, and less water usage. Even domestic PV installed - it would all help.

Markcheese · 15-01-2022 8:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477347#Comment_118477347

Except we're heading the other way - aside from electric heating and electric cars and buses, we're going bigger fridges ,bigger Telly's --more pumped electric showers , air con units , home computing power ( even if it mainly runs netFlix ) , and then add in the data centers ,

Are we going to counter all that with a few l.e.d. bulbs and an app to turn your hot water on when your on the m50 ,

Incidentally I'm all for efficiency and decent controls ,but we're going to be using more not less ...

Sam Russell · 15-01-2022 9:58am

Well, of course we will use more of everything as we get wealthier.

However, there are improvements in the efficiency of electrical goods - large TVs use a lot less electricity that the old CRT monstrosities of old. Likewise a bigger fridge is probably as efficient as the old one it replaces - you just need to keep the fridge door closed much more to see the real benefits. The LED lights are more efficient, but people make up for that by having much more of them and using higher light levels in their homes and outside their homes.

Being green is an uphill battle, and neither thanked nor appreciated.

tom1ie · 15-01-2022 10:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475319#Comment_118475319

What website is that?

Danzy · 15-01-2022 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469189#Comment_118469189

Does that make sense though or is their more than a touch of moral righteousness about it. Is it the best long term approach.

If they kept at it but invested the money in renewable energy development wouldn't it likely be a global game changer.

There might be no kudos in that but the results, incredible.

The cost of this change to net zero is going to be more than most people can bare, and more than most can afford here and in Europe.

It will lead to a backlash, especially as the Green agenda is largely confined to American and European middle class, the rest of the world have not much of an interest.

Unfortunately.

I farm in County Cork and the changes in my few decades are significant, over longer periods more so. I know what's fields were grazed first in the 30s and when I can see the changes in that, in nature. I'm not a climate denier.

Danzy · 15-01-2022 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475497#Comment_118475497

In fairness that is very selective.

It's like putting up a photo of yourself on the toilet and asking are you ever off of it.

Danzy · 15-01-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475458#Comment_118475458

The Germans have in a fit of madness and ego decided to wind down all their plants, coal and nuclear in a very short time period.

That's putting strain on the system and also more outages.

I'm no fan of nuclear, it's hideous expensive though I do accept that from a Zero carbon electricity pov that it probably has a significant part to play in many countries.

Hopefully German haste will not taint the entire renewable energy sector in Europe.

bk · 15-01-2022 12:47pm

“Except we're heading the other way - aside from electric heating and electric cars and buses, we're going bigger fridges ,bigger Telly's --more pumped electric showers , air con units , home computing power ( even if it mainly runs netFlix ) , and then add in the data centers “

I went from a 50” Plasma to a 65” OLED TV and the OLED uses about 1/4 of the power as the Plasma! Before that I had a 32” CRT and that used even more energy!

Likewise if you go from a smaller, 30 year old inefficient fridge to a modern larger fridge, despite being bigger the new one will use far less power.

I wouldn’t necessarily assume larger means more electricity.

Modern washing machines / tumble dryers / dishwashers are vastly more energy efficient then older models and these are some of the biggest energy users in the home.

I get what you are saying about LED lighting, people are definitely using more and keep them running longer. But the studies that have looked into this still finds that even with increased use, they are still a net reduction in power use versus traditional bulbs.

LED’s use about 1/10th the power of old bulbs. So let’s say you use to use the old bulb 3 hours a day. Even if you ran the replacement LED 24 hours, it would still use less power then the old bulb running for 3 hours!

I’m big into home automation, I’ve a lot of devices and I keep a close eye on power usage. To be honest, modern consumer electronics use feck all electricity. The vast majority of power usage in homes is primarily, heating, hot water, cooking and washing. Lighting in the past, but LEDs have made it barely register. By comparison your device running Netflix barely registers.

Once you have switched to LEDs, moving to modern appliances has a massive impact on energy use.

magicbastarder · 15-01-2022 1:32pm

i suspect one of the biggest users of electricity among kitchen appliances is the oven; AFAIK they can draw several kWs at full power, but i'd be curious as to how much fan assisted ovens make a difference, and what their average power consumption is if used for an hour, say, compared to one from 30 or 40 years ago.

i also remember reading that one simple step you can take with ovens is to not worry about pre-heating; in most contexts, you can lash the food into a cold oven and let it warm up with the oven (a point at which it'll probably be drawing full power); unless you need to sear a joint from cold, for example, this should work with most foods.

bk · 15-01-2022 2:00pm

Absolutely ovens are some of the highest energy users in our homes.

Yes, convection/fan ovens use about 20% less energy. Plus there have been other improvements over older ovens, new ones tend to have far more insulation, which keeps in the heat and thus reducing the energy needed.

As an aside, it can be more energy efficient to use other appliances for cooking small meals, toaster / air fryer / microwave rather then the oven.

BTW I forgot earlier one exception to the above. Big gaming rig PC's, if you game for many hours they can use a lot of power.

gjim · 15-01-2022 3:06pm

I used gas for cooking years ago and at the time it was better than old style electric but induction cooking is superior again in every way - it can boil water 2 or 3 times faster than gas as well as provide very low controlled temperatures. Apparently, the professional users are moving to induction in droves. And I'm comfortable leaving the home with something on a very low simmer over an induction cooker but would never consider leaving with a gas burner running.

Worse is that the evidence has been mounting from decades long studies that cooking by burning methane at home is damaging to your health - the burning releases not just carbon monoxide but various nitrogen oxides and formaldehyde and is statistically associated with lots of bad medical outcomes. For example, the highly elevated asthma levels suffered by kids growing up in a home with a gas cooker. There's enough evidence right now to think about restricting cooking with gas to professional environments with industrial-style extraction. I've heard that New York has banned gas cooking in new builds.

Cooking with gas is inefficient - less than half the efficiency of induction - as most of the heat just rises around the outside of the pot and into the air.

Everyone should cook with electricity - it performs better, won't poison you and your family and will reduce greenhouse gas emissions considerably.

Sam Russell · 15-01-2022 4:05pm

Cooking with gas is inefficient - less than half the efficiency of induction - as most of the heat just rises around the outside of the pot and into the air.

Well, gas costs about 5c per kwh while electricity is about 17c per kwh. [Deals vary]

Now I was always taught that efficiency is measured in the wallet, so induction would need use less than a third of the energy is the gas. Now it might, as the induction only heats the water, while gas heats the room and the kettle as well as the water.

bk · 15-01-2022 6:16pm

Yes induction hob use almost 57% less energy then a gas hob. However that wouldn’t be quiet enough to close the gap between gas and Electric prices, gas would be still cheaper

Having said that, I feel gas hobs just aren’t safe and I wouldn’t have it in my home with kids, etc. Plus as an asthmatic, the idea of pumping Nox into my home is just a non starter.

I don’t think the price gap is enough to be worth the risk. According to an article in the UK, the cost to run a gas hob for a year is £16 versus £34 for an induction hob. Really not that big of a difference.

At the moment I use electric, which is even more expensive, but don’t particularly notice. I’ll definitely switch to induction when it comes time to replace my current hob.

Sorry I should add, induction hobs are more expensive up front to buy then gas, I still think it is well worth it.

cnocbui · 15-01-2022 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118479962#Comment_118479962

Induction heats the pan, not the water. Microwaves are the only tech that heats water molecules directly.

My hob has both induction and gas. The induction is cheaper for me as the gas is from a bottle, but the gas is more useful during power cuts.

Sam Russell · 15-01-2022 7:19pm

You are right - brain is addled.

However, efficiency is still in the wallet.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-01-2022 10:49am

ScotWind auction. Prices tomorrow. I'm predicting they'll come in way under £106/MWh when running.

"In total, projects which have consent and those already in the pipeline come to less than 10GW.

The ScotWind auction, whose successful bidders will be announced on Monday, should see at least a further 10GW"

A small fraction of 20GW would power Scotland even at low wind speeds with plenty of scope for storage and export to England (and here) with normal wind speeds.

Sam Russell · 16-01-2022 11:47am

Now here is a question.

If a person had €50,000 to invest - say, what would be the better way to invest - for the individual, and secondly for the planet?

Buy a new EV like the VW ID4 or BMW i4 which will allow the use for personal transport of 100% electricity, and stopping the use of fossil fuels. Say, depending on mileage driven, perhaps €1,000 per year of fuel saved, but costing say €200 in electricity. There is also a saving on maintenance costs and perhaps other costs and charges, but these would be small.
Invest €50,000 plus SAEI grants in a insulation refit and domestic PV and battery system that would improve the BER to A2 or B1, and reduce the energy bill to small numbers. A feed-in tariff may help a bit. It would also improve the reliability of supply, which with the move to VoIP telephones is an important consideration.

I think investing in an EV (compared to the PV and battery option) makes little sense. Just think in 10 years, the EV would be worth little money, but the domestic insulation and PV system and battery would still be working at near full production, and may have paid back the initial investment.

Clearly, from the planets side, the PV and battery route has to be the preferred option as cutting out fossil fuels has to be the better option.

Danzy · 16-01-2022 11:51am

The cost of tyres and the frequency of change is over looked with regard to electric cars.

It's being worked on but it is a problem.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-01-2022 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483557#Comment_118483557

How much will people be travelling ? Working (and schooling) from home and buying online and having it delivered will become more common. Consider that car sharing schemes and robot taxies will be more likely in future too.

Retro fitting of old cars should become a thing for more popular makes which would be less wasteful than an new vehicle. Energy to fuel would mean low mileage old cars would be greener. Considering how much of the cost of fuel is excise it might not even be that costly if there was political will. Emissions would still be an issue. (At this point Biofuels are close to greenwashing and unless the technology improves there isn't much justification in ramping them up)

IMHO Tariffs and smart meters haven't provided a justification for using an EV's battery to support the grid. If going off grid then the savings on connection may add up.

Insulation benefits everyone in a household. An EV benefits the driver. There's five million people in the country and only half that number of vehicles registered. It's would be wrong to regard EV subsidies as being for the richer part of our population and insulation for the poorer part, but not that wrong.

techman1 · 16-01-2022 12:16pm

Was listening to an interview this morning on newstalk with Professor Paul Dean of UCC on Ireland's energy make up. He says it is predominately fossil fuels mostly oil for transport and gas for electricity generation. In fact 60% of our electricity comes from gas and the 30% that is coming from renewables must be 100% backed up by conventional power stations.

In fact we are the 5th most fossil fuel dependant country in Europe because of so many one off houses that use oil for heating, because of car dependancy and the very low proportion of our rail network that is electrified. Also we have zero nuclear power unlike alot of our european contemporaries

There is alot of denial and wishful thinking both by the government and by the public regarding energy security. This was the main reason why we experienced critical power shortages last Winter, there was under investment in new gas generating stations because it was not popular to this and over optimism regarding the conversion to renewables. When Covid hit some of these older generating stations went down and it took alot longer to get the parts and expertise into the country to fix them

However in one regard we are lucky with our gas supply in that 50% of it is domestic coming from the Corrib field and the other 50% of it is imported coming mainly from the UK and this has been a very reliable supply. But again we are in denial by refusing exploration licences for new gas fields of our own. The realization that renewables and zero carbon sources are going to take much longer to materialize is now dawning

RandomViewer · 16-01-2022 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483617#Comment_118483617

Retro fitting is expensive and to do it properly would mean a total upgrade of brakes and suspension to allow for the extra weight, in some cases double the weight, I think there is a gap between what is economically viable and what some people believe is possible,

bk · 16-01-2022 2:46pm

“In fact 60% of our electricity comes from gas and the 30% that is coming from renewables must be 100% backed up by conventional power stations.”

That isn’t correct, in 2020, 43% comes from renewables. Gas was 52%, the remainder being coal, peat, inter connectors and a few other bits.

of course it is true if you look at the entire energy market, including cars and home heating, it looks far less good.

“There is alot of denial and wishful thinking both by the government and by the public regarding energy security.”

There is no denial, we have a very clear path to getting to 80% renewables by 2030. We have two massive RESS auctions coming up this year and a few years later. These will result in massive amounts of extra wind energy being added to the grid, plus two new interconnectors.

Cars and home heating will be a bit trickier, they basically need to be electrified. Move cars to EV and greatly insulate homes and move them to heat pumps. So both end up running off that electricity that will then be 80% renewable.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-01-2022 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118484223#Comment_118484223

Current prices for a full retro-fit are crazy unless you DIY and disregard the time.

If you accept a reduced range of about 70Km then it should be possible to do it without too much extra weight. It should be possible to do kits for popular marques that use standard sized drive components coupled with modular batteries to distribute weight and space. Top selling cars in Germany 10 years ago were Golf , Jetta, Passat and Polo They use the same platform as Audi A3, Seat Leon, Skoda Octavia and Superb of the time.

For high milers a new EV might be better, for very low mileage using fuels produced by renewables might be better.

techman1 · 16-01-2022 3:02pm

"That isn’t correct, in 2020, 43% comes from renewables. Gas was 52%, the remainder being coal, peat, inter connectors and a few other bits."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/793304/ireland-power-mix/

renewables were only 33% in 2020, 30.5% wind, and 2.5% hydro, Gas 51% , interconnector 5%, coal 5% Peat 3.5%

Thats only the electric energy mix if you factor in transport and heating and agriculture renewables fall much more and fossil fuels go up to 80 or 90% of total energy demand

Energy infrastructure

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