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Can anyone explain Rolex to me?

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  • 04-01-2022 11:34am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭


    Firstly, let me say that I am no expert and I am open to correction on any of the points below.

    Secondly, I don't hate Rolex. I think if you can buy a Rolex at retail price then you're buying a decent watch at a decent price.

    My confusion is around the watch community's obsession with all things Rolex leading to people asking anything from 15,000 to 20,000 USD for a simple green dial, time only 41mm oyster perpetual on chrono24.

    If I look at Rolex watches objectively then I don't see any major innovations, the dials are good but not fantastic, the movements are solid but due to them not being visible through the case back they are not highly decorated, they're not haute horlogerie (although the definition is loose) and they're no more accurate than any other well made automatic watch.

    On the plus side, the oyster bracelet is a fine bracelet. I'm not a fan of the presidential but that's just personal preference.

    I take my hat off to Rolex though. Their marketing is excellent so the average guy on the street (i.e. not a watch geek) is aware of them as a luxury brand and it's the first watch they'll try to buy if they come into a bit of money.

    Also, restricting the supply of their most popular watches obviously increases the desirability but I find it strange that the watch community doesn't see past this obvious trick and realise that the watches are not worth the prices being charged on the grey market.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    It's like having a Rolls Royce on your wrist. Not to say it's the RR of watches it isn't, just that's the perception among the nouveau riche.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Fitz II


    You have mostly got it. Certain, and I stress certain ,Rolex models are very popular. They are oversubscribed from the Authorised dealers to the point there can be an extensive wait, or a necessity to buy less popular models before they will get you the watch you want. This has lead to a active secondary market where people sell second hand Rolex for a premium. Certain watches can go on this secondary market for twice to three times their retail price. There is also a dark side to it where certain people buy a lot of Rolex from the AD and immediately flip them onto the secondary market for profit. Its been going on a while now. Some would call it a bubble but its in everyone interest that is inside the market to keep it going. Demand far outstrips supply for Rolex at retail prices.


    As a watch its not exactly the Rolls Royce of watches. Its more like the Mercedes or BMW of watches. The branding is very good and its one of the most recognisable brands out there. The fact you dont loose money on them, make money or store money in them also makes purchasing them an easy decision. They are universally well made. robust and everyday watches. Brands like Patek, AP and the ultra luxury brands like Richard Mille would be seen as above them. And again in those brands there is an active secondary market and premium. People often use the purchase of a Rolex to mark a special occasion or to celebrate financial success. This is the same with most luxury goods.


    If you want something like a datejust, or a two tone Rolex that fairly easy to get and do not fetch premiums. So this is limited to certain models. However these are almost universally the models people want the most. Its easy when you are outside the brand to not see the point, or start to find those inside to be unlikable or foolish. Wheather they be nouveau riche or old riche, they are still riche. But like everything in watches you should buy what you like, and if you like Rolex buy one, but expect to either wait or pay



  • Registered Users Posts: 586 ✭✭✭Pablo_Flox


    For me they are way over-hyped and for the most part not very interesting design wise. I say get a Solas Equinox and forget the cult of Rolex!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Good solid watches from the universally recognised watch brand with a couple of "watches" for life classics like the Submariner. Currently hyped up beyond all recognition and because of that vastly overpriced for what you get. RRP has gone a fair bit up over time too.

    and for the most part not very interesting design wise.

    That's a huge part of their appeal for many buyers. They're consistent and very conservative over time so no shocks will throw the buyer's market they tend to appeal to. Look at the examples of Mercedes and BMW Fitz gave. They do the occasional oddball, but their bread and butter is soild, conservative middle class suburban cars which they do very well and they have design cues going back decades. When they stray from that they tend to sell less. Same for Rolex.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭pjdarcy


    Thanks guys. I thought I was missing something but it appears that I'm not the only one that thinks they're massively overpriced on the grey market.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,786 ✭✭✭893bet


    Every luxury product is overpriced.

    i don’t think Rolex are overpriced on grey market. Market has set the value and they have proven to be fair robust for value retention. However if buying in now on the like of a Batman or BLrO at grey prices i don’t see much short term upside.

    Not a good investment to make money at this point but a good value store to enjoy.

    For the grey cost there are much better horological options. Up to the buyer to decide if they prefer value retention and liquidity of Rolex over finishing etc. you get with other brands at that price point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭covey123


    Of course this is subjective, but taking all marketing, and hype out of the equation,what do some of the longer term watch collectors here consider to be some of the best bang for your buck watches out there, whether it be €500 or €5000 or anything in between, with regard to craftsmanship and finish/design etc, purely based on the quality of the watch itself.

    One opinion I came across on a Rolex review on YouTube mentioned something along the lines of "its a great watch for €8000, but will cost you €12,000".

    So pound for pound, what are some of the favorites out there?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    When luxury goods sell at a premium or multiples of retail then something other than normal market forces is operating. People are buying Rolex watches at inflated prices because they can't get them in ADs. Let's not beat about the bush, if you only have the prospect of getting the watch you want from an AD by buying loads of things you don't particularly want from that same AD then the retail price of the watch isn't really what it says on the receipt.

    So what's the alternative?

    Obviously buy 2nd hand on the grey market. If you want it so badly and can afford the price then that's what you've got to do but if you believe this rubbish about 'they will always maintain value or a modest profit' then beware. The grey market for certain Rolex models is a classic financial bubble and despite what people (many with an interest in maintaining 'value') might tell you all bubbles eventually burst, sooner or later.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,628 ✭✭✭scwazrh


    The Rolex market is hyped up so much now by the flex culture and lads just wanting to show off their wrist candy .Wibbs said it in a post recently that most watches are now just mens jwellery and its right.

    Most of the YouTube / Instagram watch stuff is expensive watches on shaved tattooed arms.I’ve seen some of the Buyers in the vids asking how often the battery in their new Rolex needs to be changed … That side of the hobby annoys so much.

    And it’s not just social media . I know of two young lads , early twenties who just before Xmas bought Rolex’s each .I said it to them about pooling the money together for a house deposit but the flash watch is more important to them .Renting a house ,getting the bus to work and putting a two tone Rolex on at the weekends.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭hitemfrank




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,628 ✭✭✭scwazrh


    You can but I have to mind your watches till the hair grows back



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,862 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    My Dad has a submariner… he was left it in his uncles will in the late ‘80s, i believe the watch was made in the mid 1970’s…from some googling I ‘think’ the value is around 10,000-12,000 euros give or take…

    he wears it about 3 or 4 times a year… wedding, funeral, over Christmas etc…or a night out..

    it’s not an ‘exceptional’ looking watch even though it’s in near mint condition…but nice, yes.

    my annoying cousin keeps mentioning it to him… “ ohhhh you still have that Rolex Uncle Sean ? Why do you not wear it, would you not sell it or give it away “… my cousin collects watches but I think he better think again if he believes my father will be ‘hinted’ out of a ten grand watch…



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,786 ✭✭✭893bet


    Rolex tends to drive some strong opinions. Often from people not even on the slightest qualified to offer the opinions. Strange.


    One thing I always found strange is how people say how amazing their marketing is. I tend to disagree. They have spent an absolute fortune to get to their position. A **** fortune on sponsoring global sports events and full page advertising for years and years.

    And I don’t think they have really done anything to drive the current situation on. They ain’t limiting supply really IMO. Demand has gone through the roof and they have not been able (or decided not) to fill it all. Probably both. Could they stop building DJ and just build sports. Maybe, maybe not. But it would be a poor business decision.


    Their designs don’t really light my fire but I may at some point pick one up again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    €500 range Steinhart, €1K-€2 Sinn, €2K-€5K Omega.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    It's a great time to work in a Rolex shop. You've nothing to sell.

    Rolex is definitely a statement watch more than most others and probably ties into the Instagram persona that a lot of people are trying to cultivate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Fitz II


    Not really, they get to sell Stienharts, sinns and omegas to people who really want a Rolex as "relationship" pieces.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,786 ✭✭✭893bet


    The two that spring to mind for me are


    1) Nomos are great bang for buck at lower end. Great finishing and design.


    2) Breguet at the higher end.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,786 ✭✭✭893bet


    I dunno. They get accused of being snotty but I suspect having to explain 40 times a day to people that they can’t have the watch they want gets tiresome to the point that they become dismissive.


    Then they have to maintain the straight face while they try and sell them an Omega at full retail. What about some a diamond bracelet for your wife Sir.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Fitz II


    Hey these are just snotty neaveaux riche instagram people so you can be as rude as you like to them.....it would appear. 😂 I am sure the odd hard working salt of the earth type gets some friendly fire but a small price to pay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    I agree as regards Steinharts but not as regards Sinn and Omega. Steinharts are mostly modelled on popular but over-hyped/priced Rolex models and are an affordable alternative. Sinn have a different aesthetic and Omegas like the Aqua Terra are good watches that have their own following and you can still buy good examples used for under €5K. You could have included Tudor which is the quintessential Rolex relationship brand.

    Edit: BTW AFAIK Sinn aren't sold in ADs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,786 ✭✭✭893bet


    Exactly. And the likes of me who is a more discerning independent style watch collector I can also look down at you Rolex loving wannabe car salesmen types.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Fitz II


    First rule of watch club is "buy what you like" second rule of watch club is "Ignore rule 1 if you like Rolex your a fool to buy it, like they are not even that nice man, and people who have them are twats, and half them are fake anyway". 😕



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,648 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You might call it marketing.

    But Brand engineering adds monetary value.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    One thing I always found strange is how people say how amazing their marketing is. I tend to disagree. They have spent an absolute fortune to get to their position. A **** fortune on sponsoring global sports events and full page advertising for years and years.

    I would say that in the last couple of decades their marketing has been pretty average but again consistent. I would regard the marketing of their founder to be the amazing end of it(with a later blip of genius in the 60's/70's).

    Though people think of Rolex as Swiss today, they were much more an British/English company in outlook and market for much of their history. Their founder Wilsdorf was a strong anglophile, founded the company in London and even the name Rolex was invented to make it easier for English speakers to pronounce, recognise and remember. Consider their "budget" brand(or at least the one that survived); Tudor. Couldn't get any more English than that, even had the Tudor Rose as a logo for years. Remember "our man in Venice" and the French dollybird informing us how to correctly pronounce Swiss brands? Or the same guy's vid on how to pronounce Omega? Not required for Rolex.

    What Wilsdorf spotted in the British market was an opening. And remember in 1908 Britain had the largest empire the world had ever seen. Swiss watches were the underdog in many ways. People wanted to buy "local". The Swiss sold their unbranded movements and dials to British suppliers who flogged them off to retailers who put their name on them. A gentleman would look for a Harrods or Asprey wristlet rather than an Omega or Zenith, or Longines or IWC(IWC were more a movement supplier than a watch brand back then, though their name was their way to go "international"). They even supplied movements in gilt finishing because that's what British watchmakers did.

    Wilsdorf started to take the American approach to branding and marketing and fought to have his "British" Swiss watches named on the dial. That was a ballsy decision back then, but it worked. By the 1920's the British market was looking for Swiss brands more than retailers. That was all Wilsdorf. Rolex used local British celebrities to market their wares. Something also new to that market, but common in the US. He even nicked the waterproof watch in a goldfish bowl image for his "Rolex Oyster" marketing from a US campaign by Elgin/Depollier of a decade earlier.

    So Rolex became the solidly middle class "good watch" of Britain and her empire. This was further reinforced in WW2 when alone among the Swiss brands Rolex supported Britain and refused to sell to the Nazis and sold them at massive discounts to British POW's. Again a brave move at the time. So it's not a shock a certain Ian Fleming owned one and put one on the wrist of his oh so British spy. And the next phase began...

    Outside of Britain and her commonwealth Rolex were essentially unknown. If you look at US ads or industry mags from the 1950's Rolex are nowhere(they're not seen that often in European or even Swiss periodicals). They had tried to make inroads by gifting US dignitaries and presidents with their watches, but it didn't take off with the public. The huge success of James Bond helped. That was their "Omega Moonwatch" moment. As did the 60's American gra for all things "British" on the back of the Beatles etc. Rolex then threw big money into US advertising in National Geographic, Time magazine etc marketing their watches as adventurer pieces worn by sponsored "sporty" celebs. This massively expanded the brand recognition and they copied that to other markets. They also did less obvious things like heavily discounting their watches through American military PX's to get them out there as the military man's watch. They had tried to get the US military to buy them directly, but they were rejected as being overpriced and prone to leaks of all things. You'll notice that a lot of the time when an old American guy shows up on their antiques roadshow with a NOS Rolex from the 1960's he's a ex military chap who bought one when he served. And interestingly rarely wore.

    So by the 70's in America Rolex had become the solidly middle class "good watch" there too. They just about weathered the quartz/digital crisis and were perfectly placed to get in on the mechanical revival. Consider the Daytona. A hard sell that pretty much didn't. It gained an automatic movement in the late 80's and with the resurgance of mechanical and initially with a sudden popularity in the Italian market of all places it finally started to sell in decent numbers. And then the internet happened...

    The sponsorship of global sporting events keeps their name in lights. Most watches are not sold to watch geeks, but to muggles 😁 everyday people who watch sporting events. It had very much worked for Longines in the past. They had been pretty much the sporting timer brand for decades, but then they ran out of money during the 70's. IIRC the 72 Olympics was the last one they sponsored. Today they throw money at equestrian events which works very well in Asian and Arab markets were they sell a lot of their watches. TAG Heuer got huge in the 90's on the back of F1. When Seiko wanted a worldwide audience they sponsored the Olympics too(1964). Rolex sponsoring sporting events is good marketing.

    Another thing Rolex do is keep a dignified distance in thier marketing. They avoid making historical claims of innovation, preferring to leave that to the fanbase ensuring plausible deniability(and they got stung a few times in the past when they did make such claims). Unlike others they won't even authenticate their own vintage watches and have in the past removed the patina and history of pieces in servicing(though they're not alone in that) and still the fanbase remains loyal.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,232 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    Imagine nasa went with Rolex instead of Omega, god help us



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It could have happened I suppose. Though Rolex's only offering close to their requirements was the Daytona, which was about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit at the time. It was likely not even on their radar. NASA were pretty lax in their watch requirements. They only tested a few watches and a couple of them had the same movements. They clearly weren't that pushed and it was a late addition to the programme(or program 😁). If you were designing an actual watch for spaceflight and especially EVA's none of the ones they tested were much use in reality. Too small, pretty much impossible to operate in an EVA suit with pressurised gloves. If they were to design one from scratch it would have likely been more along these lines:

    A 1930's Zenith bombadier's "wrist" watch. Massive, a stopwatch and easy to use with gloved and clumsy fingers.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭pjdarcy


    Federico talks a little about Rolex hype in his video today

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjxk2H23LG0&t=192s



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    I think he said 'nouveau riche', in fact I'm sure he did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,786 ✭✭✭893bet


    Not so fat anymore fed seems to have changed his position a lot in the last 6 months or so. He had a fair few Rolex and sold them off. Was always on about his Hulk and how much he loved the watch. Then recently he sold it to some “schmuck” (literally what he said !).


    I think it’s a small angle from him a little bit. Rolex sell themselves and he is trying to push some of his base in other directions.


    I relatively like him still. Short snappy videos that’s are purely opinion based. I no longer watch any of the DITL videos. Jesus they are repetitive.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Fitz II


    Fed (well done for loosing so much weight, looking good buddy) was very sore about the pepsi he sold to TGV for a song a few years back and then TGV ghosted him like is his way. After that he sold all rolex but his hulk. As 893bet says he tend to push other watches a lot of breguet, piaget and the likes, and he sells them in his shop. He has some good points, but his ire at the Rolex scene is quite personal.



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