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What do you believe happens when we die

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl



    Hmmm, seems like romantic fantasy from where I'm sitting. The notion that Shakespeare has been globally redistributed such that every person on the planet has a constituent number of billions of the bards atoms would take some proving. Worth remembering that vast quantities of organic material goes nowhere and does not get recycled as more organisms, e.g. think of fossil fuels. If we take the notion that we each have a few billion atoms of Genghis Khan for example, firstly I'd be interested in seeing the statistic that suggests somebody buried in 13th century China would share matter of some kind with me and by extension every one else. Say that were the case, the direct implication is that I share matter with every other person that ever lived more than a certain time ago, and similarly every other reasonably large animal or plant. The same would need to hold true for everyone else alive today. Not convinced.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    depends on how you define shakespeare, as in, what constituted shakespeare's body or part of it. if you're merely talking about what constituted his body and was buried when he *died*, then i suspect you're correct, in the same sense that your fossils analogy makes.

    however, having 'been part' of shakespeare is much more broad. matter he ingested and then exhaled as CO2 and water, etc., and all other aspects of what could have been part of his body over the course of his life, widens the net colossally. eye-wateringly so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,457 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I suppose the difference between Bryson's claim and religious claims - you can actually check the veracity of Bryson's claim. i don't actually know if it's true or not. He could be incorrect but the reason he said it will have been based on the evidence rather than a "just so" claim of the religious.

    Worth noting that Bryson is talking about atoms not whole substances. So atoms can break off and replace each other without the substance changing.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    True, but to take Shakespeare as a specific example demands that the same be true of every other person who predeceased him. To say that 'you' contain a few billion such atoms, similarly implies the same is true for everyone. Thus for the statement to hold true, every person would have to have a few billion atoms from every other person that predeceased them by a certain number of years. Not only that, but unless we can figure out why this is a specifically human phenomenon, the same would have to hold true for every other similarly sized animal. While I could accept it to be true in specific instances, I rather doubt it is generally true for every instance. I'd like to see the statistical arguments that support such a hypothesis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,457 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Well yeah but they're not all exclusive. The same atoms could have been part of billions of organisms, plants, animals stars and all the rest before while on earth, and came from elsewhere in the universe before even arriving on earth.

    It also doesn't suggest you have all these atoms at the same time as the atoms that make up you are always on the move. Every time you poop you release loads of atoms that were once part of you. Every time you shed skin cells or exhale, you're releasing billions of atoms that were once part of you.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Still not entirely convinced that Bill has thought this one through. Take the statement "Every atom you possess has almost certainly passed through several stars and been part of millions of organisms on its way to becoming you" for example. The vast bulk of the material that constitutes our planet and everything on it has come from our sun. We understand that the sun however is a vast fusion reactor, it is continually making brand new atoms so the assertion that every atom you possess has passed through several stars seems specious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,457 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Is it true that the vast bulk of the material that constitutes our planet and everything on it has come from our sun? I didn't know that.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'd thought that it had, but googling shows it was more likely accretion from the same dust and gas cloud that formed the sun. Score one Bill :)

    That said, if most stars are also creating new atoms through fusion, it seems less likely that most atoms have passed through several stars before we incorporate them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,457 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    It might depend on whether you consider them new or not. It might have a new name but the 2 atoms press together to create helium, its could be considered the same stuff in a different form (minus some energy). But I don't pretend to know.

    We'd probably have to ask Bryson what exactly he meant and ask the relevant scientist what the actual facts are. Bryson's book was excellent but it would have been boring if it went into that much detail on every point.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl



    Certainly seems to be a very popular book, but I'd wonder whether parts of it are factually dubious. A skim of reviews on goodreads suggests this could well be the case. And pedantically perhaps, if you combine a number of atoms of one thing to form an atom of another thing through a process of nuclear fusion, or split one atom into different atoms through nuclear fission, the result is new atoms (and maybe some energy). In your originally quoted paragraph, Bryson talks specifically about atoms, stuff can mean pretty much whatever you want to mean and is ambiguous by comparison.

    Great thing about not being religious is we get to ask awkward questions about the good book, or about any good book for that matter :)



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i don't think anyone ever claimed that it's a specifically human phenomenon, though. and the same concept for me containing X number of atoms that were once in shakespeare also holds true for shakespeare's barber, or whoever you wish to pick.

    there are 10^26 atoms in a litre of water, and about 10^19 litres in the sea.

    if you took one litre of water, poured it into the sea, and waited long enough for it to be mixed thoroughly through (let's call this shakespeare by extreme homeopathy), and then filled a jug with one litre of water - there'd be 10^7 atoms from the *original* litre in that jug.

    given that probably tens of thousands of litres of water probably passed through shakespeare, it's probably trivial to claim theres X million or X billion atoms in my body which were once in his.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    just thinking a little further, to reach a quantity of water where you can say 'there are as many atoms in this quantity of water, as there are these quantities of water in all the oceans', you're looking at less than a millilitre of water as far as i can see. the key is the mind boggling number of atoms there are in any normal scale amount of matter.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    How long though would it take for one litre water to become evenly mixed throughout all the bodies of water on the planet, to the degree that any other litre would contains water molecules from that litre? On what basis are we assuming such an even redistribution would ever take place, not just in one instance but in every instance? Much like homoeopathy tablets, I would guess most litres of water don't contain any actual Shakespeare ;)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    well, if you're arguing that not all water mixes evenly, i suspect the odds actually work against your proposition. in that shakespeare water (tm) is almost by definition surface water (i.e. water exhaled as part of respiration, or water excreted into surface water supplies) so more liable to mixing than water at the bottom of, say, the marianas trench.

    but yes, you are correct. the mouthful of beer i have just ingested does not contain any actual shakespeare. he may have consumed many millions of those molecules in a mouthful of beer centuries before, but this does not make those molecules his.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,457 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I'd imagine any book that's as old as his would contain lots of science that's been superceded if not outright rejected in the meantime.

    Then I'd probably ask you what percentage of atoms thst come from a star are new in the way you described and how many are intact just being recycled. Your point would stand if the atoms are all being destroyed and reformed through fusion but is that what actually happens? I don't pretend to know.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a lot of the heavier elements are formed in supernovae - our sun wouldn't have the energy levels high enough to produce much more than the very lightest elements, and i think you can only go up as far as roughly iron in red giants, before heavier atoms get formed in supernovae.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I agree that he may indeed have consumed many molecules in common with those of the beer you just consumed, but compare that to making a statement that he probably did or certainly did. There are many orders of magnitude here between possibility, probability and certainty. For certainty we require those millions of molecules to be present in every mouthful of liquid, morsel of food or even lungful of air taken by any person at any point in time we've allotted for the uniform disbursement of those molecules imbibed by Shakespeare to the global environment. That makes about a 10^10 difference between possibility and certainty (say 10 billion people). Now for this to hold, it holds not just for Shakespeare but everyone who predeceased him (say 1 billion people). That adds about another 10^9 difference, or 10^19 in total. This is before considering the same argument across the broader animal and plant kingdoms or the length of time to evenly distribute all the atoms that have come within an acceptable proximity of Shakespeare globally to the extent that they are everywhere. Going from possible (probability > 0) to probable (probability > 0.5) to certain (probability = 1) involves some pretty big jumps. We get a few divisions by two to drop from certain to probable, but that doesn't account for orders of magnitude.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,173 ✭✭✭Kaybaykwah


    Just sayin’. Them old hebrews were onto something when they theorized about that collision of Atom and Eve. Big bang happened there, apparently.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    For certainty we require those millions of molecules to be present in every mouthful of liquid, morsel of food or even lungful of air taken by any person at any point in time we've allotted for the uniform disbursement of those molecules imbibed by Shakespeare to the global environment.

    we don't need to assume those molecules were present in the mouthful of every other person who has ever existed.

    it's simple probability - if there are 10^45 atoms in the 'available' liquid and vapour water on the planet, and you pull out a litre, add it again, assume uniform mixing, and then pull out a litre again; the second litre will have a significant number of atoms that were also present in the first sample.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch



    It's not that you pour a liter of water into the ocean and wait until its constituent quarks and higher-order structures distribute themselves slowly and evenly amongst the waters of the Earth, to be drunk by humans, or drunk by fish, caught by fishermen and eaten by consumers, but that - in addition to this - the seawater evaporates, returns over the land as clouds and supplies the water we drink and farm with. No idea how to estimate the relative transfer rates, but I'd imagine the second is far faster than the first.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    It's the 'assume uniform mixing' that I'd query there. You pour a litre of water into the Avon, how long roughly does it take for that liter to be evenly distributed across the planet's water supply, such that every liter likely to utilized in the formation of another person contains billions of atoms from the original source. How about an amount of water that Genghis peed into the Mongolian desert? Even then, we seem to be assuming that when talking about the atoms that Shakespeare or Genghis Khan possessed we're happy to include the sum total of their urination, feces and any other excretions over the course of their lives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,808 ✭✭✭Man Vs ManUre


    What about ghosts?? Surely if you can become a ghost when you die, for anyone who does unnatural be it gangland shot, beaten by spouse or other person, killed in a car crash by an act of stupidity by somebody else, then you would come back as a ghost and torture that person responsible for your death. Like boo hoo in dark rooms and all that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,464 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Rather ironically, what Bryson says is a bit like a lot of religious ideas. They simply can't be proved.

    So it's easy to spout them and sound clever.

    The only argument against that would be of course that science will try to prove it's claims, and might get there eventually. But for now, I'd take that quote from Bryson with a massive pinch of salt.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 12,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    Nope. It comes from past stars that have died.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl



    I suppose the big difference here is that we can tease any scientific assertion out with questions and refine our understanding as a result. What Bryson says may be reasonable on the basis of a number of broad assumptions and less so on others. I think the language he uses in this quote is misleading, so for example saying that we are "vigorously recycled at death" at an atomic level suggests to me he is talking about human remains specifically, as opposed say to various excretions over our life time. The other arguments here supporting Bryson's quote would suggest that if anything, we are more vigorously recycled during life. Either way, the notion of sharing atoms with Shakespeare or Genghis Khan to me seems very much like a romantic notion that isn't particularly meaningful, provable or of scientific value. I'd agree it does have that in common with a religious assertion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,464 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    If you believe what Bryson says, then by the same logic, we are also drinking Shakespeare and Khans pee everytime we drink water.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,944 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm reminded of the saying that every glass of tap water in London has already been through seven sets of kidneys...

    It's also become apparent with coronavirus how much of what we inhale is the exhalations of others - especially in an enclosed space, bus, train etc. Yuck.

    Every time you smell a fart, molecules have entered your body which only seconds before were up some other person's bottom.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,944 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    These sorts of deaths happen relatively frequently, but has even one credible instance of haunting ever occured...?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    well, yes. and dinosaur pee, etc. etc. the chances of taking a mouthful of water where a significant number of the water molecules haven't been peed (or excreted, or ejaculated, or what have you) by some human or animal at some point, are astronomically small.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,808 ✭✭✭Man Vs ManUre


    And there has never been a ghost caught on camera. So makes me think there is no ghosts, spirits, afterlife and there is nothing after death.



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