Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

"Green" policies are destroying this country

177788082831119

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,894 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Wow, you could have me agreeing with you more often. Apologies, but maybe I am the stopped clock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,258 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    Id say nuclear power is not high on the agenda due to its huge cost and risk levels. 32 countries have nuclear power but some are looking to back out of using it, mainly due to 3 accidents since 1979.


    "Following Fukushima, Germany has permanently shut down eight of its 17 reactors and pledged to close the rest by the end of 2022.[2] Italy voted overwhelmingly to keep their country non-nuclear.[3] Switzerland and Spain have banned the construction of new reactors.[4] Japan’s prime minister has called for a dramatic reduction in Japan’s reliance on nuclear power."

    Wind energy is a relatively new technology. Id say the hope it that over the next few decades more improvement in efficiency will come, its still early days. Wind energy developments may render nuclear less viable also.

    Taxing people more makes them poorer, resulting in less consumption that is killing the planet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    You have that backward. Interest in nuclear is clearly on the rise, it's not declining.

    "Countries Detail Nuclear Power Climate Change Plans in COP26 Event with IAEA Director General"

    Wind energy doesn't need greater efficiency - that isn't the fundmental problem, which is that even in a fairly windy place like Ireland, it stops blowing for weeks at a time. You have to be able to plug a contiguous 3 week gap, at least, of essentially no energy generation from wind.

    No one has come up with a way to store enough excess generation from wind to provide power for more than a few hours. You no doubt have heard of grid scale battery projects, well they only have capacity to supply power for a few hours, and even then it's never enough to satisfy more than a small fraction of a nations total demand.

    You have to remember the goal - net Zero CO2 emissions - so cranking up the gas turbines every time there is a lull in the wind isn't an answer.

    A former president and founding member of Greenpeace was asked why the world is so averse to nuclear energy, and his reply was 'because they are idiots' - 1:00:00 (thats one hour in)


    this is from someone who campaigned against atmospheric nuclear tests and was part of crew on a boat that sailed up to an Aleutian island to try and stop the US testing a hydrogen bomb (they succeeded) They temporarily named the boat Greenpeace, and the group changed their name to that subsequently.

    He has stuff to say about Fukushima and Chernobyl.

    Post edited by cnocbui on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    It is not new technology wind energy in particular wind turbines have been used for a long time. I find it useful to dry my clothes hung on the washing line. Wind energy is low quality when it comes to providing electrical energy. Check out the Betz limit - no turbine can capture more than 16/27 (59.3%) of the kinetic energy in wind. They need about 50 acres per megawatt generated, consider most of the best and cheapest sites for wind turbines have already been consumed, there are also the raw material requirements that go with that dispersal (Foundations, cabling from remote areas to the distribution network, towers, nacelles and blades), with a design lifetime of perhaps 20 years. That's a lot of capital, mining and land area tied up in those, the trend is also for taller towers and blades, in 20 years time the existing concrete and steel foundations are no good to carry the larger, heavier loads and stronger wind force load. Wind turbine effectiveness (the load factor, to use the engineering term) is determined by the wind that is available, and that randomly varies from second to second, day to day, season to season, year to year. The strategy of wind turbines is an economic white elephant project on a larger scale than the turf powered stations were.

    Since January 2020, there have been eight system alerts in Ireland due to a combination of factors. These include periods of very low wind, limited interconnector support from Great Britain due to its tight margins, prolonged outages at two large gas generators due to technical problems and the impact of Covid-19 on maintenance schedules.


    <snip>


    The report found that despite a short-term reduction in electricity use due to Covid-19, demand in Ireland is on the rise and, long-term, it will increase significantly due to the expected expansion of large energy users. Large users are expected to account for 27% of electricity consumption by 2030.


    It predicts that over the course of the next five years around 1,650 megawatts (MW) of generation will retire in Ireland, with up to a further 600 MW retiring in Northern Ireland.


    source

    The costs running offshore wind turbines are higher (installation, maintenance, depreciation) and you are ignoring the economics of managing random surplus power on the grid when it is not needed (curtailment payments) and having to maintain the capital equipment on standby for when the wind does not blow or sun shine. The other site of that is what happens when the gas plants lose money and shutdown, there was major panic in Eirgrid back in 2018 when Viridian planed to close its Dublin power plants.

    If you watch carefully reserve power generation capacity across all systems in Europe are being removed leaving us dependent on random power generation and other countries surplus power via inter-connectors, if that worst case scenario, freezing weather over North Western Europe with little wind, there will be no surplus power power at any price available at a time when consumer demand surges. The plan is to use secondary source energy (i.e. electricity) to run heat pumps and electric cars (BEVs), primary source fuel (gas, coal, wood) is not an option today for heating in many apartments and increasingly new housing builds. It will be increasingly hard to get parts for gas and oil fired boilers after 2025 leaving consumers with higher maintenance costs when equipment breaks.

    But hydogen and batteries the critics say. Battery storage is only good for short intermittent dips in power, it cannot sustain 24 hours of limited to no random energy. Hydrogen gas is not an option before 2030 and comes with its own higher cost of manufacture and distribution network challenges.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Phasing out nuclear power because of the few accidents that have occurred is likely phasing out aviation because of some plane crashes. They are more high profile events but are ultimately safer than the alternatives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,258 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    It is rising but there are still concerns about using nuclear energy. Perhaps its use would be considered a last option in Ireland anyway. Accidents are rare but potential devastating. Because no one has yet found a way to long term store energy from wind farms doesn't mean they wont improve storage technology in the next decade or 2. I dont think id be happy to start down the nuclear route just yet. Id rather see how wind, wave, solar technologies develop over the next decade or 2 first & also see if people can reduce their energy demands as time goes on (doubtful).

    I think reducing our energy consumption 1st should be the main goal and in parallel look at how are energy is supplied. It wont be easy with a rising population. People insulating there homes is a start. The next 20 years will be interesting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,258 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    Yes efficiency at the blade has a hard limit & I agree windmills have been around for a long time, but large scale wind power appears to have only taken off in the last 20 years due to the focus on climate change. I suspect this may be a catalyst for more innovation in relation to better storage of energy from windfarms in the near future. Time will tell.

    Will be interesting to see how the development of the VAWT turbines plays out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Perhaps ESB networks will put you on the same test program they have me on, where they disconnect your power for 8 days in a year. That reduces energy consumption quite substantially.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    One of housing in my view is a no go. full stop. A terrible mistake altogether. When I was a young lad growing up in the 80ts there was lovely old woodland along with a fairy fort nearby me [village]. In the last 20 years, the woodland is gone with two big 16 room houses are now in the middle, and the fort I don't know what became of it as it's all privately owned now. I don't think it survived.

    Dan.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    While climate change is given as the major reason for the rush for wind turbines, the origins of the current policy in Western Europe go back to the oil crisis of the 1970s and the fact that Western Europe has little in the way of oil and gas, post world war II they built the electricity network on coal and oil. Several countries especially France pursued a nuclear generated electricity policy. There is also the peak oil hypothesis that had a lot of traction in the late 90s into the 2000's among planners and the many of the electricity generation plants built in the aftermath of the war were reaching the end of their working life. There are several economic problems with wind turbines, they are low density, dispersed and random output and in a free market the output can never command a premium price, hence taxpayers and electricity consumers must subsidise them. Once the subsidies go, after 20 years the German state of Branderburg did this, the operators cease trading and go bankrupt. There are also issues with the finance and debt structures behind these companies. It was something Eddie O'Connor of Airtricity warned a few years ago, I can't find the link just now. The risk is that your pension fund may eventually end up with the losses. Profitability is a big issue for these operations, the current environment of cheap finance may be masking a long term problem, that only becomes apparent after the original investors have managed to flip the company and exited. "Green finance" has a bubble feel to it especially when you hear terms like "gold rush" and "Saudi Arabia of wind" and Qatar bandied about.


    World's largest offshore wind farm 'unprofitable' for Equinor, say government-funded researchers

    Equinor's investment in Dogger Bank — the world's largest offshore wind project under construction — will be unprofitable, according to a Norwegian government-funded study.

    The new research raises challenging questions about the Norwegian state-controlled oil and gas giant's energy transition strategy.

    The study was submitted this month to Norway’s Petroleum & Energy Ministry, which financed it as part of wider research into potential energy transition opportunities for the country.


    As regards vertical axis turbines, the appeal is lower cost but the experiments are not promising and there is more work to get efficiency of the horizontal axis turbines. See College's green turbine uses more energy than it generates.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,258 ✭✭✭Andrewf20




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14 EtonMess


    Interestingly, a lot of wind turbines cause the release of more CO2 than they save.

    Installing turbines on hilltops in Ireland requires new service roads and foundation pads to be built. This drains the surrounding wet and peatlands releasing the stored carbon in the ground which have been there for millenia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    You are talking about Grey Hydrogen, I’m talking about green Hydrogen. Germany already has went GH2 route having moved away from nuclear. But they are unable to produce enough themselves, I can see Ireland moving along the same lines.


    https://cosmosmagazine.com/technology/australias-new-green-hydrogen-partnership-with-germany/?amp=1



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    Sure it’s long term strategy, but has to start somewhere. Germany is moving away from Nuclear and will source green energy from elsewhere. The fact that they are investing means they will be pushing, they will also be pushing smaller European countries to do the same.

    here’s more details

    https://germany.embassy.gov.au/beln/hydrogen.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I fellated the posters on the facts. It's in the thread. They then resorted to ridiculousness. They got mocked with a bit of humour. Don't be so pious.

    I know some people would rather the site turned into a knitting circle, where consensus is reached by splitting the difference, but the reality is some stances are so silly they deserve the ribbing they get.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    And just as a context follow up: Certain posters immediately called another an idiot / spoofer etc when he made the factual and we'll documented point that one-off housing contributes to high electricity prices for all.

    If we're going to engage in piousness and policing posting, by all means, just apply it equally if you can.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,365 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I realised a while ago that rural people genuinely believe living in totally car reliant one offs is better for the environment then in clustered communities. There's no point in trying to discuss it with them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,053 ✭✭✭gifted




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Yes. That is the only possible urban environment and living alternative to a McMansion 3km down a boreen.

    There is also no such thing as villages apparently. Just septic tanks spewing in the middle of a field and Toyota Landcruisers to the nearest Lidl 15km away.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Funny when there's water contamination it's always the local authority sewage plant that's to blame not the humble septic tank,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Is that so?

    1 in 2 septic tanks failed inspections and 1 in 4 pose a risk to human health and the environment.

    Who picks up the tab? Why there's an 85% government grant up to 5k from the public wallet to fix the failing tanks.

    The one-off Ireland archipelago, what a place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Have you considered leaving? North Korea or Afghanistan should be attractive to someone who loves telling everyone else how to live their lives,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Ah God help us. Is that what you think is going on? Telling you how to live your life?

    Here's the default position in our democracy: You need to secure planning permission to construct an abode, and the consequence of building that abode needs to be environmentally, socially and ultimately economically sustainable for the wider community, not just for the person seeking to build.

    Just as I can't throw up a rollercoaster and a Harvey Normans in the middle of the Phoenix Park if I felt like it, so too must people planning a housing unit in the countryside, which is a shared public good and not a principality where anything goes for the property owner.

    One-off builders had it their way and all their way for a very long time, and the consequences are now coming home to roost. You could accept it and show some humility, or you could tell people to move to North Korea(?).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Your kind used to rule the roost when the RCC called the shots, now that avenue isn't open to you, you've jumped to the Green party, same narrow-minded little people, still trying to control the people only difference is Greta has replaced Jesus as the figurehead,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    🤣 You're so wide of the mark it's funny.

    A suggestion that one-off housing should be drastically curtailed (which has been mainstream thought in the civil service since the late 70s and is now accepted government policy) sends you into a tailspin.

    Haven't had a bowl of muesli in an age and I don't even wear sandals on holidays. If 'controlling the people' means advocating against an economically, socially and environmentally thick practice of lobbing up houses everywhere, then Joseph Stalin I am.

    The only people that endorse the practice of one-off housing are yahoo TDs whose seat is shakey at the next election; everyone else acknowledges it's a disaster. Enjoy the company.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 920 ✭✭✭techman1


    exactly, the germans learned that painful lesson way back in the 1930s with the hindenburgh disaster. hydrogen is still the same as it was back in the 1930s, some things never change ☺️

    although it was very environmentally friendly, you could cross the atlantic using very little fossil fuels although running the high risk of being toasted



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Now would you mind quoting and highlighting the bit where they detail the meausered and documented consequences? Measured pollution of waterways and lakes as they do for agricultural runoff. Boil notices because of domestic septics? Beaches closed?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well, a lot of people want to live in one off housing. Indo reported on Saturday I think it was that one off housing prices are up 20-25% in the last 12 months alone



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    That's right cnoc, the EPA are saying 1 in 4 are a danger to human health for the laugh.

    Untitled Image




Advertisement