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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    This is where the conversation inevitably goes. No one mentioned anything about bulldozing houses or moving anyone to cement tenements off the M50.

    I was making a factual point that the cost of provision of electricity to one-off houses is heavily externalised to other electricity consumers (and is but one example of how the true cost of heavily dispersed settlement is externalised). That's my angle. No more no less.

    We're long past the point where we can afford to entertain comfortable falsehoods about one-offs. Yes we all pay for things that don't benefit ourselves, but let's not tell lies to ourselves about the significant cross-subsidization of the one-off way of life. Especially as people living in the rural idyll on the hillside frequently frame themselves as the keepers of the flame of Irish life, dancing at the crossroads etc, when the cost of that way of live is borne in many ways by other people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,135 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,130 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Well I do want an answer.

    The same as I want an answer for how much continuous wind we get in the Atlantic at 150m in height, at a distance from the cost where these wind farms are proposed.

    Why are you purposely holding back info that backs up your argument? Unless your argument doesn’t stack up…….



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    Do provide a link for your 2 to 5 times more expensive connection claim.


    Power loss to the grid? You're joking right?

    "Unusually large infrastructure"? This is the point being made , the farms are already out there.

    Do green extremists really want rural Ireland emptied. What about rural holiday accommodation? You know, since we can't or shouldn't fly abroad because of co2.

    Is there a list of who and what would be allowed in rural Ireland?

    When are we demolishing the one off's? How will this effect the already high demand and prices and rents in cities?

    What is the co2 cost of squashing everyone into a high density green utopian city? All that demolition and building...since we need to fix things before 2030 or the planet will boil.


    Any nuclear, solar, wind, heat pump, rural resettlement solutions need to get started now since such projects will take years. Do we see it happening?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Knock yourself out... (Original research conducted by UCD and EPA Strive project)*

    https://kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/YourCouncil/Publications/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/KildareCountyDevelopmentPlan2017-2023/Kildare%20Rural%20Housing%20Report%20Airo%20March%202016.pdf

    "Electricity provision to rural areas is high due to the average fixed cost of capital investment and the cost of subsequent maintenance of a considerable length of power line. In addition, electricity is lost due to the length of the distribution network while voltage quality can also be adversely affected. There do not appear to be any publicly available estimates of these relative costs, but it is possible to provide a relative indicator through comparison.

    Due to the low density of population and housing, Ireland has the most extensive network per customer in the EU, resulting in high transmission losses. ESB networks is forced to maintain more than three times the length of distribution circuit per customer as compared to, for example, the UK. To avoid voltage drop over this extended network, at least one transformer for every square kilometre is needed in almost 75% of Ireland. This means that Ireland has almost one-third the number of transformers as in the UK despite having a total distribution network of just half the size and 6% of its population. Even if a comparison is drawn with Scotland, a country of similar size of population and with a low overall population density, ESB networks must supply an average of 8.5 customers per kilometre compared with 11.3 for Scottish Hydro. Ireland has five times the length of overhead line to supply and maintain (154,000 km) compared with Scottish Hydro (30,000 km) despite only having two and a half times as many customers (Scott and Brereton, 2010). AIRO, March 2016 19

    The condition of the rural network is a cause for concern and voltage quality standard is not being met for a significant proportion of the rural population. The low proportion of underground cable (approximately 8% underground compared with 57% in the UK) also has a significant impact on continuity of supply. Of the approximately 1.7 million wooden poles on the system, one third are over forty years old and pole rot is becoming a significant factor. Meter reading is also more expensive due to the higher rates per house paid to rural inspectors, equivalent to 134%. Meter reading is believed to cost three times more in rural areas than in urban areas. In recognition of these high costs, electricity is the only utility where a cost differential between rural and urban homes applies. Currently, the cost differential between the standing charge in Urban and Rural areas is +53%. In short, although a proportion of costs are recouped, the higher price paid by rural customers falls wells short of the actual cost incurred in providing and maintaining the service.

    *The 2-5 times differential comes from a State Agency comprehensive research project on the cost of one off housing, I'll let you do the Google-fu on that yourself since I've done so much of the legwork myself.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Answered in the should Ireland go nuclear thread in relation to SMRs RR's pricing and the UAE's Barakah nuclear power plant, where 4 reactors were built in 9 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    From what I see around my area is that for every new rural house build you will have 2 or 3 older ones closed up.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is a nutty comparison. If we bumped the population of Ireland to match the population density in England it would not be good for the environment.

    It talks in comparison to the UK. It talks about the length of the grid etc. In terms of per customer.

    The one off's are between farms unless you want to cut off everything beyond the pale or turn Ireland into a version of high density England the comparison is nonsense

    New connection fees exist. People are billed for their electricity already. If you think the supply fee should be different that's one thing. Emptying out the countryside is fanatical psycho pol pot stuff



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    There's so much wrong here in such a short post there's no point in even getting into it.

    The facts are there, one-off housing increases the cost of electricity for all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,741 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    I'm not sure the peak demand issue is much of an issue for heavily urbanised areas. There will never be a peak that comes close to everyone having personal ownership of a car. If one thing comes out of the pandemic it'll be more flexible working arrangements; the days of the overwhelming majority of us being expected to get into work in the same hour-long window and heading home in the same hour-long window are hopefully waning.

    As for needing true AI to run autonomous cars? I'm not so sure about that. They might not be hitting the streets any time soon, but the things are being actively worked on with current tech. We massively overestimate how great we are at driving, we crash all the time, and in stupid situations even a current AI wouldn't get into. There's also the issue of the interaction between the more predictable autonomous vehicles and human drivers. The AI follows the rules where we don't, and that will be very apparent in the accident rates. Vehicle accidents are accepted as a necessary evil, but I see a point where having a licence, or the insurance, to manually drive a car will be a rarity. But it won't be in my lifetime.

    As for humans leaving the solar system, whether we are ever capable of that is still in debate, whereas cars driving places by themselves is already happening in limited situations.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    Power NI have just announced a huge 21% price increase......... Rising gas prices and lack of wind being blamed by the company. Whether you believe these reasons or not, that's a substantial financial burden being loaded into their customers .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,130 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    But if everyone lived in cities you still have to maintain rural lines for farming and it’s associated industries eg milking co ops, 3 phase repair shops etc

    also if everyone lived in cities you would have a much higher density in said city which means more electricity demand in a smaller area which means larger underground cables which leads to higher capacitance issues which leads to higher cost anyway.

    It’s kind of a non argument really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0


    In a large amount of cases, the existing pipework can hold hydrogen. The main problems are the higher flow velocity required to achieve the same amount of energy transferred. This can cause issues for any metallic pipe in the network, but a large amount of the gas network is plastic, and is fine for hydrogen. Moving some of the demand away from gas and towards electricity will reduce the amount of hydrogen that needs to flow through the gas network if there is a change from natural gas to hydrogen.

    I agree with you that hydrogen isn't suitable for gas cooking. It also isn't really suitable for a gas fire, mostly for aesthetic reasons. Hydrogen burns with a faint blue, nearly invisible, flame. There are safety concerns with having flames that aren't obvious in a home environment. That is why I said we need to move away from gas for heating and cooking.

    What I am saying is that we need to plan a move away from gas. I don't think it can happen in the short, or possibly even the medium term. I think that it is a project that would take 15/20 years minimum to complete. But it needs to be planned, and the planning needs to start now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0


    Trades people will still be required. If there aren't as many required, then that would be an economic efficiency argument in favour of removing gas, but I don't think that there will be a reduction in the number of trades people required. They won't be working on gas boilers, except removing them, but there will still be heating systems required. People will still need hot and cold running water. I would suggest that there should be training provided (free to the tradesperson) to re-skill them for working with heat pumps or other electrical boilers, should other types become available and more desirable.

    Part of making a just transition to a carbon-free economy is to support people through the changes that are being imposed on them. In this case, it means making sure that RGI plumbers are given the appropriate opportunities and skills to continue to work with the replacement technologies. It's like with the move to electric vehicles - there will be a smaller number of mechanics required for working on ICE vehicles, but there will be a larger number required for working on EVs.

    I also don't think that it will happen or that it is desirable that it happen very quickly. I think that there needs to be a planned, phased approach to making this transition. As it currently stands, gas boilers are installed in very few new homes. Phase 1 is not installing them in any more new homes. Phase 2 is encouraging the replacement of end-of-life gas boilers with some sort of electrical heating. This phase will take quite a while. Most gas boilers last between 10 and 15 years, and it would not make sense to force replacements on people until their existing boiler has either ceased to function or has become extremely inefficient. There should be a low-cost loan/tax rebate available for the insulation/energy efficiency/heating system replacement works to encourage homeowners to upgrade the energy efficiency of their house when they are making these changes. I would suggest that this phase be completely finished by 2040. At this point there will be a relatively low number of houses with gas heating. They should just be given notice that the gas network is being shut off and that they have to sort out their heating.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    If you read my original comment the ESB was setup by the Irish government in 1927 with the main purpose of bringing electricity to all parts of Ireland to greatly improve the quality of life of all the citizens of Ireland and its still 95% owned by the Irish government, the network has been in place for many decades and has negligible impact on the cost of electricity now, the main reason is that all these rural house aren't getting electricity for free, they have been paying bills for over 60 years. I don't see you making any comment on the PSO levy to subsidise renewable energy which is added to everyone's bill? As far as i can see most renewable developments are by funded by private companies so what does that get spent on? The ESB made 600million in profit last year BTW in case you think they are struggling with the costs of all these rural houses or the rural houses are getting in the way of connecting new data centers to the grid and causing these amber alerts.

    I appreciate the time you took to make the comparisons with other countries but trying to say volt drops in cables to rural houses are a major issue on the network makes no sense, take a look at a map of where all our power stations and wind farms are (not Dublin) and where the main energy load is (Dublin), is your argument that should we move our main population to all live around a wind farm or power station because that's the most efficient solution?

    If you really were really worried about all this you'd be campaigning to turn off all the street lights, they are a massive energy load and energy waste across the cities but I guess there's none of them in the countryside and you benefit directly from them so its fine for the taxpayer to pay for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    It's a fact. It's significantly more expensive to deliver electricity to rural one-offs and you're not paying the full price of it, it's externalised to others. And that's just the externalisation of the cost of electricity, one-off living is a heavily cross-subsidized way of life.

    This isn't a big bad Dublin vs the poor craythurs beyond the the Red Cow as you're trying to frame it. It's possible for people to live in a rural setting clustered in a village or in sensible proximity to a village, which would improve the economic life of the village and be a sustainable way of life for the provision of everything.

    I know one-off dwellers don't want to hear it, how well we all know you don't want to hear it. Please note I didn't mention bulldozers in this post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    I don't really understand your argument, maybe you should walk out of your house with mains water, sewage and gas, down your lit street to the local bus stop with regular bus service to get you to the luas to bring you into the city to ask someone what heavily subsidised means.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    That post is ridiculous and I think you know it yourself. There is no comparison between privately operated productivity driving and sustainable transport infrastructure in an urban area that is an economic engine of the country that, more than washing its own face, ultimately provides you with your way of life, and a one-off house which is a net taker on almost every front.

    I'll do the reductio ad absurdum thing (because that's what one off defenders often engage in) to illustrate. If everyone in Ireland did the one-off thing, provision of any basic public goods from postal to broadband to paving the roads would be impossible. We'd look like Afghanistan because there would be no one else to externalize the true cost on to.

    Urban areas are highly productive (and I'm talking generally not about big-bad Dublin), have levels of economic activity and efficiency that means the more you invest in them the more return you get and productivity soars. A one-off will always and forever be a heavy net drain in the provision of public goods, even down to the humble postage stamp, which costs An Post multiples the price of a stamp to get a letter to your door. Ever think where the rural post office went and why that might be?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'll leave it there. One-off dwellers and promoters have been handled with kid gloves for years because it's politically expedient to do so. They have their comfortable delusions about that way of life which if quietly held, aren't all that much of a problem. But the problem comes with the interface with reality. Nobody is asking to burn down the homestead and move to a tower block in Blanchardstown, just when reality and facts come knocking, please open the door and let them in for a cup of tea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    You seem to be under the impression rural dwellers are somehow gaming the system to some massive personal benefit at the expense of poor city folk just scraping by and its ridiculous, rural people building a one off house pay all the planning contributions, taxes and bills the government and utility companies demand of them same as everyone else, you think any of those bodies are charities and wouldn't have increased those charges if they were losing money? You seem to think someone could get planning for a house on the top of a mountain and then the ESB and council have to put in 5km of new lines and new road to service that house for free, they do on their f#ck, you want want it you pay for it.



    "The Department of Transport said it more than doubled State subventions to the main transport operators last year – to €670 million – “due to the profound impact that the Covid-19 crisis had on the sector”.

    So even on a good year the the Irish taxpayer is subsiding public transport to the tune of over €300million, this is public transport that is already pretty pricey to people but what do rural taxpayers get for this? They have to pay for their cars and fuel which makes them net contributors to the exchequer, but they get crap roads and no public transport in return.

    You're whole argument seems to be somehow rural dwellers are this massive drain on the economy but that is not reality, you realise they are planning on spending €10billion on the Dublin metro right? What % of Ireland's total population will actually have any use of that when 100% will be paying towards it?

    Post offices are closing because people don't send letters anymore.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    You would do well to remember that these one-off rural houses are being paid for by the owners, not by councils.

    And these ''Urban areas are highly productive'' is laughable, have you been to Ballmun lately, you know the place that a billion of taxpayers money was spent on, or all these other regenerations protects around the city costing hundreds of millions.

    So before you start chirping about the cost of rural housing, have a closer look at home.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I think the point is to stop all the disingenuous complaining about the cost of electricity in Ireland and blaming wind power for our higher than average bills

    Ireland has had higher than average electricity costs way before the first wind turbine was built.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The UAE is a dictatorship, not exactly known for asking their citizen's permission before construction projects

    The fact that it took them 9 years to build them without having to go through planning or consultation is actually a bad sign

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'm sorry MBE, another deluded post.

    Dublin (for example) isn't just the economic engines of Ireland, it's one of the most economically productive per head urban areas in Europe (and the world for that matter). That there is inequality within Dublin is no major surprise, but it doesn't just carry the likes of Ballymun, it carries you too.

    The difference being, people in Ballymun are labelled scroungers etc etc (wrongly IMO), and I'm sorry, but the likes of one-off dwellers economic burden on others via direct transfers and hidden externalities far outstrips a Ballymun (which is actually an alright place this weather, with a university on its doorstep).

    The (oversized) rural road network, is overwhelmingly, ridiculously subsidised by urban Ireland. The state of the road network in rural Ireland is yet another strong argument against one-offs btw.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The Dublin metro should be doubled in size and scope. It's a project of national importance and will more than pay for itself with productivity gains in short order. It will even benefit you though you may refuse to recognise it.

    Btw, transport subventions historically and into the future go to rural bus routes that lose money hand over fist to mop up the social issues of those who don't/can't drive in rural arcadia. Subventions are a bad example to go to, because rural one-offs are a major generator of these subventions themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    You have it backward, people vastly underestimate how good we humans are at driving. The Norwegians manage one death per 600,000,000 km. That's out beyond the orbit of Jupiter.

    There is an almost humorous articles in just the last day rumouring that the great god Apple has decided to go for fully autonomous in their EV project, with stupid nonsense like them trying to decide whether they would include a steering wheel to allow for human emergency intervention.

    "Apple’s ideal car would have no steering wheel and pedals, and its interior would be designed around hands-off driving… Though the company is pushing to not have a standard steering wheel, Apple has discussed equipping the car with an emergency takeover mode"

    Back in the real world, APPL up 2.85%. Will the author of that rumour please step forward and take a bow. Not exactly insider trading, but of the same ilk. The gullibility of seemingly the whole western world when it comes to hopeful whitterings on future tech simply amazes me. Disengagements per 1000 miles in 2020: Waymo, 0.033. Apple, who will release a fully autonomous vehicle in 4 years time which has no steering wheel - 6.95.

    Remember that spoofing sack of faeces Musk, telling the world a Tesla would drive coast to coast in the US autonomoulsly, in 2017? Announced in 2016 and here we are at the end of 2021. To boost Tesla's share price so he could reap his massive mult-billion performance reward, he announced that by the end of 2020, Teslas bought at any time, would receive a full self-driving update, turning them into fully autonomous self driving taxis which would earn their owners $30,000 a year while their incredibly inteligent and financially savy owners slept or otherwise were not using their money printing machines.


    People who worship technology simply astonish me. Unless it's ever proven otherwise, I maintain that general intelligence is required to drive a car safely and systems touted as AI (they aren't even close to the I bit) will not be able to achieve it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Providing access to dispersed rural housing places a heavy burden on roads and local government budgets.* Ireland has 91,000 kilometres of non-national roads representing 94% of the total length of all the country’s roads and carrying around 60% of total traffic. Ireland’s road network per head of population (25.68 km per 1,000 population) is considerably greater than the EU average and twice that of the Member State with the next highest road length (8.5 km per 1,000 population). Many of these minor roads are laneways that evolved with farming practice and are unsuited to significant traffic movements. Reviewing Ireland’s road maintenance budget demonstrates that the more population is dispersed, the greater the amount of road spending that is required. According to the latest data on local authority financial spends (http://localauthorityfinances.com/) per capita spending in 2015 on roads in County Leitrim (highest spend) was €336 compared with €56 across the four Dublin local authorities. An analysis of this data and an approximate local authority one-off housing rate based on 2011 POWCAR data reveals that there is a clear correlation between high levels of per capita spend on road maintenance and high rates of rural one-off housing within local authority areas. For example, 10 of the 31 local authorities in Ireland are estimated to have greater than half of housing classed as rural one-offs. All of these local authorities have an annual per capita spend on road maintenance of between €144 and €336 (€194 average). In contrast to this, 6 local authorities have a rural one-off rate less than 4% with per capita annual spend on road maintenance of between €49 and €92 (€60 average).

    *Local government budgets are direct transfers remember

    https://kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/YourCouncil/Publications/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/KildareCountyDevelopmentPlan2017-2023/Kildare%20Rural%20Housing%20Report%20Airo%20March%202016.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    One-off houses don't make a blind bit of difference to the cost of anything, All the services and roads are there already, if not you will pay dearly for them yourself.

    A simple way of looking at it is, If you have a bus route from the city centre to the airport, it cost the same whether there are 20 people on that bus or 50 on it. That bus company has to pay the driver the same wages, fuel and maintenance cost the same regardless. So are you not better to have 50 on it rather 20.

    So I cant see where the big costs of on-off houses come from. Say on a country road that you have 5 houses on it now, would you not be better off having an extra 10 houses on it using the bus example, no.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    "One-off houses don't make a blind bit of difference to the cost of anything"

    There's no point in engaging any further. I know deluded is a strong word to use, but there's a powerful delusion at play here.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    Fine by me, but you are the one that's deluded, not me.



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