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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Renewables plus energy storage of hydrogen, is uncosted and unproven. Batteries have been costed and are 8 times too expensive to allow renewables plus batteries to deliver 24/7/365 zero CO2 output at a cost equal to nuclear generation. If you started now, and took a decade to build a nuclear power station, it would have been operating for nearly two decades before Li-ion batteries have declined in price so they are only 3 times too expensive.

    There are two ways to get to zero emissions. One is via nuclear energy and the other is via magic wands and if wishful thinking.

    It doesn't matter how much you increase renewable capacity if you can't solve the storage problem. Of course Irelands response to inconvenient truths is the same as always: pretend they don't exist, hope no one notices, and hope they go away and that no one who matters, like the UNHC, calls you out. They have announced lots of offshore wind before the storage question has been answered. They are hoping it will be, but there is no guarantee any solution/s will be economic. Perty much the same as past generations attitudes to nuclear waste storage - long finger it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    This is from May 1 2021. It was an overcast day with no wind anywhere and wind output across North Western Europe that day was non existent.


    Untitled Image


    Wind Energy Ieland won't be sending a press release to the national media about this.

    The wind turbines were only pushing 11 MW. The 4% renewable you see is mostly hydro-electric.

    Across North-western Europe that day there was insignificant wind generation.

    Untitled Image


    It does not matter how many turbines you have installed or where you have them, The entire island get wind droughts that last several weeks and pften across the entire North Western Europe. Worse yet we can get weather with little to no wind when it is freezing in December or January. As a consequence, you must have reliable power on standby and that capital equipment must be maintained.

    How are you going to maintain the frequency at 50Hz with 100% random energy?

    You can only sell electricity when it is demanded. In Germany most random energy (wind and solar) is generated during the day nd there can be so much of it on the system that they have had on occasion to pay customers to consume it, however consistently in the evening both solar and wind output drops and they must import power at premium prices from Poland and Switzerland.

    This policy is all about subsidies and mandates.Anybody talking about Ireland as the Saudi Arabia of wind energy is away with the fairies.

    Lower wind speeds and cable problems hit first-quarter earnings at Denmark’s Orsted, sending shares in the world’s biggest offshore wind farm developer lower on Thursday.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Your costings are not credible. Green hydrogen technology is perfectly established. We just need a surplus of renewable energy which suits the intermittent nature of wind very well. Generate extra energy when we have it and use the surplus to generate hydrogen using electrolysis when prices are low,the hydrogen can then be sold back to the grid to balance the load when when electricity prices are high

    Also, nuclear does not generate 24/7/365. They need maintenance and to be refuelled do there is down time, and batteries would not need 24/7 coverage it only needs to balance the load.

    A proper grid has multiple different solutions that work together to provide a reliable grid. You're acting like nuclear is the answer to all of our problems it absolutely is not for a variety of reasons that have been explained by multiple posters on here already. We should have nuclear in the mix, but it's hard to argue for building it on the island of Ireland

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Ah, Hydrogen that sneaky,leaky gas. Tell me where this Green hydrogen technology is perfectly established?

    Here is an illustration from the UK to show why there is sudden excitement about "Green" hydrogen.

    Untitled Image

    Assuming they simplify the electricity supply to fully flexible combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT) and increasing amounts of wind generation that are given grid priority, this is the sort of picture you get. Once wind capacity exceeds minimum demand, we start to see wind curtailment. It rises very rapidly as capacity increases. The effective cost for a marginal wind farm is multiplied by 100/(100 – marginal curtailment %). That soon gets very expensive – at 50GW of wind (UK), you are looking at double cost. Yet you still need that backup capacity – capable of ensuring that maximum demand can be met despite Dunkelflaute conditions.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,618 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You should fire off a missive to Eamon Ryan on this. He has no problem using nuclear attempting to plug holes when the wind drops. Seems he either doesn`t know or doesn`t give a fcuk.

    Admittedly par for the course when it comes to ignoring reality in favour of fantasy where Ryan and crew are concerned



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    They aren't my costings, they come from a researcher at MIT: https://spectrum.ieee.org/what-energy-storage-would-have-to-cost-for-a-renewable-grid

    Please provide links for the costed grid scale hydrogen storage you claim exists.

    Ah, the old nuclear is grand, so long as it's built by someone else, somewhere else solution. Typical Irish inabilty to face reality or to take a morally defensible stance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Environmentalists didn't 'mothball nuclear'

    That was an public backlash as a result of a major nuclear disaster that you might remember from not so long ago

    And the wind didn't 'stop blowing for weeks' The wind practically never stops blowing offshore. even on the calmest day, go to earth.nullschool.net and you'll see calm conditions over land, with plenty of wind over the water.

    We haven't installed enough wind capacity yet. The problem is that we're half way through a transition and at the mercy of dictators who are playing hardball with supply lines.

    All the headtheballs on here saying it's too technologically impossible to install offshore wind while we've been relying on offshore oil and gas drilling for the guts of a century that has worked fine (apart from the odd ecological disaster here and the small matter of abrupt global climate change)

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    We already have grid level storage of 'natural gas' That infrastructure, including the pipelines and LNG infrastructure can be used to store and transport Hydrogen with few modifications (there would need to be compression stations installed along the pipeline network, but that's not a big cost)

    South Australia is implementing green hydrogen manufacturing from renewables, wind and solar PV, and they project they can do it for 2usd per kg

    That's much cheaper than the current grey hydrogen which is about 18usd per kg and is very competitive with the price of fossil fuels.

    And your last argument is just stupid. Nuclear requires a big investment and a big market to support it. If you think nuclear is so great, why don't you build a nuclear power station in your own back garden to power your own house.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Yes, there are solutions, that are economical at a scale way beyond what the Irish market can support.

    You mention Australia, has a population 5 times bigger than Ireland, and a whole lot of uninhabited land, and a third of the worlds uranium, and even they haven't build a single nuclear power station because it takes huge populations to justify the capital and operational costs

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    your map only showed onshore wind speeds. What was the wind off the Irish sea and Atlantic seaboard?

    The irish strategy is for mostly Offshore wind

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    Its very common to see in Australian neighborhoods to see "nuclear Free Zone" signs, there was a federal act back in 1999 banning nuclear development as it wasn't very popular. I actually work in Nuclear Medicine in Australia and about 15 years ago when I first arrived in order to get a job I needed to do a radiation safety course to get my EPA License. They man running the course was a Scottish guy, he previously worked at UKAEA before emigrating to work at Lucas Heights and he give me a good insight into Nuclear. I think Australian attitudes have changed somewhat recently, but probably not enough to reverse that law as there is to many other alternatives. I live in north west Sydney and my main solar system (10kw) on average annual production is about 21Mwh I consume about 6Mwh plus I import 4Mwh at $0.25kwh, I also export 15Mwh at $0.12Kwh my electricity supplier sell my export to my neighbors or more importantly businesses for $0.21 -$0.25. After supply charges etc my annual combined AGL electricity and gas bill is about $120 which is about €80.


    Australia also has a sh!t load of ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, osmium, iridium and platinum. Platinum, iridium and ruthenium are used in PEM electrolysis to produce Green Hydrogen made from Solar and wind power. Germany has moved away from Nuclear but is also the world leader in Hydrogen technology, they signed an accord with Australia to buy Green Hydrogen for next 30 years for their Power stations shipped in a liquefied ammonia carrier. Next you will probably see Fuel cell BMWs, VW and Mercs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,130 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    How much will the nuclear plant cost?

    How will we pay for the nuclear plant?

    How long will planning take?

    How long will construction take?

    How do we handle nuclear plant security?

    How do we manage the waste?

    What happens when the plant goes out on a fault/planned maintenance?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,632 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Hydrogen is far more unstable than natural gas, and nowhere near as easy to transport or store.

    Its incredibly volatile and the existing gas infrastructure would not be suitable to transport or store it.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    there was a federal act back in 1999 banning nuclear development as it wasn't very popular

    Interestingly the same situation exists here

    The production of electricity for the Irish national grid (Eirgrid), by nuclear fission, is prohibited in the Republic of Ireland by the Electricity Regulation Act, 1999 (Section 18).

    Can't imagine too many TD's being popular with their voters if they overturn that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    I remember in science at school" Burns with a loud pop"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Great post. I had seen good things about storing and transporting Hydrogen as ammonia, I'm glad that it's being used in real life

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    No it isn't. Hydrogen is not more explosive or volatile than natural gas and well maintained infrastructure can transport hydrogen just as well as methane

    In fact, in many circumstances a hydrogen leak is less dangerous than a methane leak as it disperses rapidly (upwards and outwards) while methane is heavier than air so sticks around and waiting to ignite, and unpressurised hydrogen contains a third of the energy of natural gas, so if it does burn, it doesn't burn as hot, and is less likely to cause harmful burns or toxic fumes

    Transporting Hydrogen can be done via the same mechanisms as natural gas with some modifications, many of the same infrastructure can be used


    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    May 1st 2021 - It was an overcast day with nothing significant offshore either.

    Untitled Image

    compare to today November 17 2021

    Untitled Image


    Eirgrid have told us what they are at in their technical report. In case you are wondering demand side management units are companies given an hours notice and kicked off the grid to run on their own diesel or gas generators. Notice also the increase in gas generation and nobody is talking about hydrogen gas before 2030. That coal plant in Moneypoint will still be around in 2030 to keep costs down otherwise Gazprom will be the most profitable energy supplier in Europe, they can't ignore reality of market prices and security of supply.

    Untitled Image

    Here are Eirgrids assumptions for random energy in 2030

    Untitled Image

    RES-E is Renewable Energy Sources.

    SNSP is System Non-Synchronous Penetration.

    As I said previously managing this system is more expensive. The risks include Higher levels of technical complexity, unreliability.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I'm an Australian and I think I have a pretty good idea why Australia doesn't have a nuclear power station. There are two reasons, one would be professional scare mongers like Dr Hellen Caldicott campaigning against nuclear all her life. She had an easy job of it, given those ratbag British testing surface nukes and hydrogen bombs in a lackadaisical manner because they didn't have to live there and using military personnel as guinea pigs. The other would be shed loads of cheaper than dirt coal. Attitudes there are changing; witness the nuclear powered sub deal. It was never about the cost or scale being too much, it was about coal being just so easy and so cheap.

    If Andrew Forrest doesn't deliver on his massive scale solar/hydrogen plans, then I think nuclear power will be in Australias power mix. I have seen some talk of it already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui




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  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This brings to mind anti-cycling articles that claimed bike lanes should be ripped out because they look empty when drivers sit in traffic jams



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,130 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    How far out to sea are they?

    How far out to sea would moneypoint 1 and 2 be?

    How active is the wind at the Kentish flats area vs the North Atlantic Ocean?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    To get the rotation of an object in a photography during they day you either have to use filters or with a technique called panning.

    Panning is not suitable for stationary objects so you have to use a filter on the lense. Given that the photographer was most likely on a boat which moves it would be hard to get a useable photo as you need to keep the camera stable.


    Long and short of the above the photo is not a true representation of turbines turning so the point you made with this image is a total red herring



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    It doesn't matter, they could bee 100K off the coast and there would still be periods of absolute calm when a high pressure system decides to hang around.

    The North sea - ironically, a photo taken by Greenpeace:

    Untitled Image

    As you can see, the wind is on holliday. As it is also is here:

    Untitled Image

    "Beatrice is an offshore wind farm off Scotland's Caithness coast"

    I suppose it will now be alleged that the seas to the west of Ireland are 'special' and completely different to those off Scotland and the North Sea.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I guess its a good thing our generation plan is not for 100% wind generation in a single location then.

    In addition to other sources, interconnectors etc, we'll be grand

    You really do have a hard-on against wind which is fine, but that you are obsessed with getting nuclear waste into Ireland makes it a truly baffling position



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,130 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Can you provide evidence of a study that proves there is no wind blowing at 100+metres in height, way out in the Atlantic Ocean (where moneypoint 1 and 2 will be) even in periods of calm weather?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    Hydrogen on its own is very volatile, but it can safely be transported in a carrier like liquefied ammonia then extracted in a carbon-zero manner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The salient point of that photo is the sea surface, not the lack of apparant motion in the turbine blades.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wind speed increases the higher you go, its why turbines are so tall.

    Not saying the water in that pic is not still, it looks it, but it doesn't mean there is no wind where the turbines are. It might not be howling, given the sea state, but it will be more than at the surface



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    The blades are 150 meters up not in the water.



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