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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Hard data! Good one ya.

    Gas isn’t clean aside from the CO2 there is also Methane.

    Where are these empirical studies ?

    List some of these efficient ICE engines.

    Saying that other countries aren’t as good as Ireland at using renewables is not a real argument for delaying the transition away from fossils fuel.

    Green Hydrogen can and is being used in heavy haulage and heavy industries instead of fossil fuels.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,365 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Why does it matter what the greens think of nuclear? They're a tiny minority party that will be gone in next election.

    Why aren't people angry with FG and FF for not pushing for nuclear given they're the ones with all the power?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,463 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    There is not a single community or village in the country who'd want a nuclear power plant in their locality. FFS we get huge amounts of nimbyism in this country when we try to put in bus lanes, imagine trying to build a nuclear power plant?

    When it couldn't get off the ground in the 70s when it had political backing, then there's zero chance of it happening now or in the future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,365 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I know this, nuclear will never happen, we can't make a road one way or put in a bus or bike lane without politicians and constituents going into absolute meltdown, never mind a nuclear power plant.

    It's just the folks who refuse to be inconvenienced or change their lives in any way always throw out the nuclear line as if it's some panacea for all of our environmental ills. It will never happen in Ireland so it's not even worthy of discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Would that be more or less deadly than a multi vehicle pileup on a motorway? Rhetorical question, of course. Now you know why it isn't enough of a problem anyone can be arsed extracting the didgit and can sit on it for 77 years.

    I really do think they should turn it into synroc and stick it 3+ km underground in a 200-400m year old salt deposit, but it's not been enough of a real problem.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,463 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    That all sounds grand until there is a peak of demand and people are left without a car. And widespread autonomous cars is not something that will be happening any time soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    In that case, Ireland will never reach zero emissions. The BBC will keep pushing it's climate hysteria agenda and at some point, they will probably succeed in convincing Irish people that some sacrifices are acceptable and necessary. It's like saying the majority in Ireland will never believe AGW is real.

    The hysteria has been enough to get politicians to force councils into accepting solar panels on roofs, after all. They might even amend planning requrements so offshore wind farms can get approval in 8 years instead of 10. After that, it's just another amendment away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    They will just offer free electricity to locals for life and they will ask 'could it not be built a bit quicker?'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,463 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Doubt it to be honest. Nobody wants a nuke plant next to them - free elec or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    There will not be autonomous cars hitting the streets. Full automation would, I believe, require the creation of a true AI with general intelligence, somthing that might be achievd a few centuries after the first manned mission to another solar system arrives at it's destination.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    But the planet and the children are dying, can they be that selfish? Haven't they seen the fires on TV?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Reality is hitting electricity consumers bank accounts today, and the only trajectory with the current plan is for costs to keep rising until consumers can bear no more. Wind turbines are a low quality generator requiring very costly grid management actions to maintain security of supply. Eventually the public is going to have to chose between between sustainable emissions reductions, the greens failing pet technologies, wind and solar and its contribution to serious economic depression. If you want to see what happens with a mismanaged grid look to South Africa, power cuts are a regular occurrence due to incompetent planning decades ago.

    The Irish Governments plan for the rest of the decade is:

    • More turbines
    • More solar
    • More inter-connectors
    • More wiring
    • 1 million electric cars
    • 400,000 heat pumps
    • Much more energy tax.
    • More subsidies
    • More EU economic sanctions.


    Untitled Image


    The catastrophists will always be there. They have a complete record of failure in their predictions and the computer model projections they depend on to generate media headlines lack predictive skill. Net zero will eventually be seen by the greater public as a massive wealth transfer from them with no tangible benefits.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I find it hilarious that the rise in electricity prices caused by the spike in gas prices globally, is being blamed on renewables

    Like what kind of perverted, twisted illogical math do you need to do to come to that conclusion



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Declaring that 'it makes sense' does not make it so.

    Do you honestly think a new nuclear power station would get planning to be built on the Corrib

    Or are you talking out of your arse

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    It hasn't been stored, up until the 1980s, it much of it was simply dumped into the ocean, and some low level waste ended up in landfill https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/07/sellafield-prosecuted-radioactive-waste-disposal https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/sellafield-s-nuclear-pollution-of-the-irish-sea-took-decades-to-achieve-1.157519

    And much of it into the Irish sea by our buddies across in Sellafield

    And even if you don't believe these stories, or think they're exaggerated, that is irrelevant, this is the kind of stuff that would be flooding the media if there was an attempt to build a nuclear power station in Ireland, it would delay and obstruct the development for eternity


    And this attitude you have of putting things on the long finger to make life a little bit easier for us right now, is exactly the kind of fucked up attitude that has led us to this climate emergency in the first place

    "Let someone else deal with it". The mating call of the 'Libertarian'

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    While I'm not unopposed to nuclear energy, I don't believe it's the silver bullet most people believe it to be. Objections and environmental concerns aside, it's insanely expensive to get to a point where you have a mature nuclear generation capability, like France. As it happens, there was a piece in the Economist this week about the UK's efforts to up its nuclear energy share:

    In 2010 the government gave permission for eight new reactors to be built in England and Wales, as part of its efforts to decarbonise electricity generation. Things have proved harder in practice. A decade later only one—at Hinkley Point on the Somerset coast (pictured)—is being built. It is late and over budget. Construction only began at all because in 2013 ministers committed consumers to paying edf, the French firm building the plant, a fixed price far above the going rate for its electricity for the first 35 years.

    and

    The latest estimate for Hinkley Point C is £23bn. Such a hefty price tag ensures that only the biggest, best-capitalised firms can build nuclear plants. Even then governments must often sweeten the deal. In 2017 the National Audit Office, a spending watchdog, said that edf’s fixed-price contract might amount to a subsidy of £30bn over the 35 years of the contract. 

    That's more than 10 National Children's Hospitals for one plant being delivered by an engineering firm that can milk you for as much as it wants because they know they've got you by the short and curlies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,894 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I pretty much agree with you on a lot of the climate change stuff, but on nuclear, we wouldn't be building another Sellafield. The more modern designs are far far safer, safer than Chernobyl, safer than Sellafield, safer than the Japanese one etc. There just isn't a comparison. It is like comparing coal to solar for environmental damage.

    We do need another sensible conversation about nuclear in this country. It may not be the solution, but the new types of plants need to be given some consideration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    "I'll finish with this, there is not enough lithium reserves in the world to replace all the passenger cars in the US let alone the rest of the world. All other prime movers will have to remain combustion engines and run on cracked and reformed gas from (sea) water with the energy source for this being a nuclear wind mix."

    Lithium is not an extremely rare element. we have enough proven reserves to last decades, and that's without even recovering lithium from recycled materials.

    But even with this, Lithium is not going to be the only battery technology powering BEVs, there are already solid state batteries that use different chemistry, as well as Sodium batteries which would replace lithium electrolites with sodium which is so abundant that it's basically infinite (it would be a waste product from deslalinating oceans which solves another problem that climate change is bringing, where to get water to drink when there are intense droughts and glaciers have disappeared)

    There are dozens of different battery technologies that are all seeing lots of investment in R&D and will be competing to take over as part of a complex ecosystem of differing technologies

    I do think extracting Hydrogen from sea water may be a big part of the energy mix if we can do it using renewable or nuclear energy. Currently a lot of peak wind power that we currently have capacity to generate is simply wasted because there isn't demand for it. If we could use this power to generate hydrogen, this could be used in a multitude of ways to transition away from fossil fuels

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Its costing them billions of dollars to clean up the site, so whatever about your 'it'll be grand we'll let the future generations pay for it' attitude, the Tax payers of today are paying for cleanup of previous generation's nuclear adventures. Our children will be left paying for the 'fuckit, lets do everything we can now to stop the tiny risk of a blackout, or slightly higher energy prices, no matter what the cost to future generations' way of thinking

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia



    Lol. you know nothing about how the world works if you think that's even remotely sensible. They might bribe politicians, but trying to offer locals free electricity in exchange for dropping planning objections would never ever work.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Random generation energy sources such as wind and solar cannot reliably produce output to maintain a stable grid. Since coal plants built in the aftermath of world war II have mostly reached their end of design life across much of Europe and are being levied with sin taxes per the green doctrine no new investment is being made in these locations and they are being shutdown save where they are needed to maintain grid inertia, the deficit left by random energy variability has to be made up with gas cycling turbines that can rapidly and reliably increase output to meet demand. There is also the issue of the closure of gas fields and gas storage facilities, a drawn out colder spring and a wind drought over the Summer which ran down stocks of gas across Europe.

    More random energy increases the demand for gas, ergo the price rises as more is demanded to build up stocks in advance of Winter, unfortunately global warming has not being making winters warm enough.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I won't take lectures on reality from someone who doesn't accept that climate change is real thank you very much

    As I said yesterday, the radiative imbalance has doubled since 2005, and will be 6 times that by mid century if people like you get your way. Your selfishness and ignorance is matched only by your arrogance to believe that you are more qualified to assess the state of the worlds climate than practically every reputable climate scientist on the planet

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I agree that Nuclear is not the demon that it is made out to be. I'm only pointing out that any attempt to get nuclear built in Ireland would be dominated by stories like those and the decades long mistrust of nuclear, fed in no small part by Sellafield being such a political issue for so long.

    If there were SMR designs that were proven to be safe and reliable and economically viable, then it's worth having the conversation, I just don't see it being anything more than a huge waste of time for a country with no nuclear tradition to to speak of, and a relatively small population. And not in the timescale that we need to work with here.

    Even the most off the shelf modular pre-fabricated low output SMR would still be held up for years in the Dail, and public consultations, and planning objections...

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Wind is not random. There's a reason wind turbines are built offshore and on the tops of mountains.

    Electricity grids always have extra generation capacity relative to peak demand so that they can handle the inevitable downtime for every type of energy generation system

    Peak energy demand is only a few hours a day, the rest of the time, there is significant excess capacity in the grid most of the time, so power stations are switched off to save fuel. Wind has the ability to generate fuel during these periods because the marginal cost of generating electricity is practically zero, while fossil fuel and nuclear always have the cost of their fuel and all the associated costs of running their facilities while in operation.

    The challenge is to design a robust grid that maximises the energy available when it is abundant rather than trying to manage peak demand by turning off plant and infrastructure, we should be trying to maximise peak supply and use this to release back to the grid when real time supply is lower than peak demand.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Marginal cost approaching zero (i.e. free), that is meaningless sophistry, even on the face of it, the cost is a long way off zero. Here is reality, actual random wind generation yesterday.

    Untitled Image

    Here is yet more reality


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,263 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Irelands plan is to heavily invest in offshore wind. We currently rely mostly on small onshore wind farms which are much more variable. But our potential lies in offshore generation

    But even still

    Ireland's peak ever demand was 5,357mw

    image.png


    If Ireland doubles or triples our installed wind generation capacity then we will would have the potential to generate a maximum of 7,182mw - 10,773mw of energy at any given time.

    image.png

    This should allow us plenty of options as a net power generator got the first time in history. If electricity in Europe is going to get so expensive as you claim, Ireland could make a lot of money selling power to Europe.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    How long have you lived in Ireland? Imagine the cost of building a reactor here. I mean think of all the things the made a bollix of, the Luas that didn’t join up, e voting machines, children’s hospital, Dail printer, the last thing we need is those gombeans signing off on a nuclear plant. It would also be a regulatory nightmare cause there’s no inforcement in Ireland.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thats not even the worst of it. Imagine the transportation of the fuel and waste alone, that would be a disaster waiting to happen on our roads. In the UK alone there are been nearly 900 "accidents or incidents" with the transportation of radioactive materials. The US is horrendously worse, with over 3500 recorded incidents in a 10 year period.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I am frankly not surprised you haven't heard of supply and demand. Shutter coal, mothball nuclear - wind stops blowing for weeks - 'would somene please open the valve, we need more gas to keep the lights on!' Except in France, where they continued to feel smugly superior.

    In our previous episode, you will remember the heated argument between Martine and Sven in the summer; Martine wanted to buy more gas and fill the reserves, While Sven called her mad, citing all the new turbines installed in the summer and how strong the wind was the previous winter.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,091 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I was being facetious. I have stated my true opinion in other threads, which is that nuclear waste be dealt with by turning it into synroc - an Australian CSIRO deveolpoed technology in use in Australia, Sellafield and at a national nuclear facility in the US. The resultant synroc is geochemically stable. Store it in caverns in 200-400 million year old salt deposits 3+ km underground.

    The fact there are solutions, but a lack of action to impliment them, suggests governemnts don't want to deal with the problem currently because it's not perceived to be enough of a problem.

    Post edited by cnocbui on


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