Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

political analyst · 09-11-2021 10:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143571#Comment_118143571

Upcoming legislation will facilitate adopted people's right to access information about their births. The cat's out of the bag. So what is there left to hide?

Shebean · 09-11-2021 10:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143580#Comment_118143580

They spent decades denying access and putting up roadblocks. The most recent whitewash and slow to act nature of FF/FG speaks volumes. If it wasn't for heroic private individuals we'd still be in the dark.

Mrs OBumble · 09-11-2021 10:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143566#Comment_118143566

Yet some families didn't send their daughters, eg Peggy McCarthy (ref) - and I know others by name, too, who stood by their abused children.

How come some families managed, and others didn't.

Mikefitzs · 09-11-2021 10:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143633#Comment_118143633

Obviously they didn't fear the church as much as the church would have liked. Any further questions on this should be directed at your local bishop.

political analyst · 10-11-2021 12:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143610#Comment_118143610

But what is there left to whitewash?! The cruelty done to unmarried mothers and their children has been well-documented by the media for the past two or three decades. Roderic O'Gorman made a mess of the way in which he communicated the planned change in the law. I said the cat was out of the bag. Therefore, I wasn't referring to the denial that had been taking place for decades before the Church's hegemony collapsed.

CutieD · 10-11-2021 12:16AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118142415#Comment_118142415

I feel sick watching this. Its shocking. **** hell. Catherine Corless did fantastic work uncovering all this.

Babies and children dumped into septic tanks.

Babies sold like little puppies for money.

CutieD · 10-11-2021 12:19AM

Philomena Lee highlighted the selling of babies from homes before this.

Mikefitzs · 10-11-2021 12:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118143576#Comment_118143576

Unless you’ve been affected directly by any of this I doubt you’d understand it very well and I appreciate that you’re entitled to your opinion but that opinion is of little value to those of us that are directly affected.

CutieD · 10-11-2021 01:02AM

Shocking

Cluedo Monopoly · 10-11-2021 09:34AM

Superb documentary last night. Tough to watch but very well made.

If you missed it...

The Missing Children - RTÉ Player (rte.ie)

tobefrank321 · 10-11-2021 02:48PM

I didn't watch the entire documentary, but the parts I watched were beyond grim. Malnourished children, virtually starving to death, and I've no doubt malnourishment was behind a lot of the deaths.

The place sounded like a concentration camp, its hard to find any other way to describe it.

Evil masquerading as "religion" once again.

Feels like you could get away with anything in this country if you had "religious" in the title of your organisation up to and including running a concentration type operation.

CutieD · 10-11-2021 05:19PM

The mother and baby home in Tuam was run by the Bon Secours nuns. Why did the Bon Secours offer to pay 2.5 million towards the excavation site in Tuam. By offering that sum they acknowledge that they played a part in the home. They should be offering to pay the full costs for the excavation site.

They were able to build profits by accepting money for the care of young and single mothers and their babies but neglected them in order to save money and sold babies illegally for profit or donations. That's wrong. Those nuns and the Bon Secours organisation profited from abusing young and single mothers and their babies.

cnocbui · 10-11-2021 05:59PM

And there are still people who wonder how someone can have a moral compass without religious beliefs.

I'd like to propose the next constitutional referendum should be about removing any and all references to the church and it's 'special place'.

Rather embarrasing to have an institution of sexual predators and kiddie fiddlers having their role protected in your constitution.

Esel · 10-11-2021 11:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146163#Comment_118146163

The homes had 'dying rooms', where babies were left unattended until they died. There's compassion for you.....

L1011 · 11-11-2021 09:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118147246#Comment_118147246

The referendum on removing the special position of the RCC from the constitution was in the 60s and passed.

Empty gesture as they continued to be listened to as if they had such s role for decades after

RocketRaccoon · 11-11-2021 10:12AM

I'm in complete and utter shock that there are posters on here trying to blame anyone but the church for this. What is wrong in your brain that you want to blame society for what happened?

The church are 100% to blame for this, nobody else, they held all the power and control over people and that's why they could get away with it. I would love to see those nuns who are still alive face punishment for this and for them to die screaming.

Cluedo Monopoly · 11-11-2021 11:54AM

I am astounded that the Bon Secours corporation is so 'untouchable'. Even the commission found it incredulous that they did not know where the missing 859 children at Bessborough were buried. Our state seems incapable of challenging them on it. Would this happen in any other country? 'Good Help' indeed. Irish people seem to accept that they are untouchable as a result of some kind of religious brain washing. How are the Gardai not investigating 859 missing children? It defies logic. Bessborough only closed in 1998 and as Finlay said, nuns usually maintain impeccable records. It's clearly a cover-up.

crossman47 · 11-11-2021 12:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149577#Comment_118149577

Not 100 per cent. Certainly there were farmers who made servant girls pregnant and sent them to homes like this so there would be no claim on the land. John B. Keane wrote about this decades ago.

Igotadose · 11-11-2021 12:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150206#Comment_118150206

Who profited from this? Who provided the infrastructure? Who manipulated the legislation (as little as it was?) Who sold the babies abroad?

crossman47 · 11-11-2021 12:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150237#Comment_118150237

The farmer profited. Lust for land is a terrible feature of Ireland. I'm not disputing the role of the church at all but just pointing out another aspect.

Igotadose · 12-11-2021 04:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150258#Comment_118150258

The RCC profited. Selling babies was big business, as the documentary pointed out. And, the RCC entirely enabled and encouraged this behavior. TBF, what you're saying is the farmer's family profited, not the farmer, since the land could be passed down. To the firstborn male son, (why not the firstborn female? Oh yeah. Women's role in Irish society and inheritance rules run by.... the RCC.)

crossman47 · 12-11-2021 05:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156558#Comment_118156558

I don't think the RCC had any role in the inheritance choices. You can blame it for a lot of things but not everything that was wrong.

12-11-2021 06:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156879#Comment_118156879

This was an interesting point from https://assets.gov.ie/118604/89820d7c-a0ef-45e4-a17c-b38b17b2f0a4.pdf

“In the Irish countryside, and to a lesser extent among small town businesses, inheritance was critical. By the 1920s most farmers owned their farm and they were determined that it should remain intact and in family ownership. Families were large but there was no automatic right of inheritance, for example, by the eldest son. Land almost always went to a son or nephew, not to a female relative. The father, and if he was dead, the mother, determined who would inherit.”

L1011 · 12-11-2021 07:01PM

That's just a description of how you can will things on death. There is a huge superstition about writing a will in rural Ireland to this day and if you die intestate the state has inheritance rules. Kids count whether married to the mother or not.

Cluedo Monopoly · 12-11-2021 07:20PM

TD questions why mass grave of 796 babies at Tuam has still not been excavated four years after it was revealed - Independent.ie

The Leas Ceann Comhairle has criticised “mistakes and delays” over the Tuam Babies case.

Speaking in the Dáil before last night’s broadcast on RTÉ of a documentary The Missing Children in relation to the remains of 796 babies in a septic tank at the mother and baby home in Tuam, Co Galway, Catherine Connolly TD said there had been inexcusable inaction since burials there were confirmed in 2017.

“More than four years ago, an expert team went in and looked at it in response to the Commission of Investigation, which had a press release saying there were substantial human remains there,” said the Independent deputy.

One member of the expert team, forensic archaeologist Dr Niamh McCullagh, was quoted in the documentary as saying: "I have never walked away from human remains in that context.”

The Galway West TD added: “We are sitting here today after a series of mistakes and delays.

“There is a whole list of other delays and obfuscations, not to mention the tapes.”

The documentary has had a great effect in putting pressure on the government.

tobefrank321 · 12-11-2021 07:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118149577#Comment_118149577

I'm personally disgusted by what the Bon Secours nuns did. By far the biggest villains in this.

But you also have to ask where politicians, governments, county councils, etc were in all this?

I've no doubt 99% of the blame for all this lay with the church, from damning unmarried mothers to treating them and their babies like commodities and slaves in these homes.

How the civil authorities had such fear of nuns and religious authorities is simply beyond me.

Probably the big regret now is most of these nuns are not around, as if they were, many of them deserve to be behind bars.

Cluedo Monopoly · 12-11-2021 07:22PM

(20) Mick Caul 😷 on Twitter: "HISTORIAN Catherine Corless has said she hopes a damning letter from the UN on the scandal of the #tuambabies site finally prompts the Government to take action #MotherandBabyHomes #HowIrelandWorks https://t.co/g3lj7v5ng8" / Twitter

Igotadose · 12-11-2021 08:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118157493#Comment_118157493

Tuam wasn't the only home.

I don't for a minute believe this was some little rogue group of nuns doing this alone. They were guided by the Church at the highest level, the 'machinery' as mentioned by the spouse of one of the survivors was well oiled and well run. The particular individual nuns might add more details, but that's about it. There's ample evidence (the bit about the box of documentation showing passport applications for babies that appear to have faked up birth dates was pretty damning) shows just how much this was supported. Remember the ex-Government official saying that nuns were notoriously meticulous. So, where are the records? Who did all the redacting?

One needs to take a bit of a step back and look at the overall picture. The RCC sold babies to America and elsewhere. The RCC did as little as possible to provide for their care - witness the death rates at Tuam . They've gone full defense mode when confronted, and pulled in their government assets to, as usual, delay, deflect and deny. Much like the laundries, this was good business for the RCC.

As for 'society,' who controlled medical care, education, heavily influenced politics and were self-appointed guardians of morality? Heck, the Archbishop of Ireland's concern about the adopted babies wasn't health or welfare, but whether they were adopted into Catholic families. The neck of that man, prioritizing the Church's desires over the well-being of the child.

One good point from the documentary was that the excavation that was concluded 4 years ago was a very 'light' excavation (I forget the words the archaeologist used exactly.) And the area in question is still being damaged by the weather as a complete excavation was not done and the bones removed for closer study. It's absurd that 7 years since the discovery of remains there's not been a full excavation and forensic analysis. This is why the number of babies buried in those chambers is unknown, the remains are in such disarray and decaying. Bones in acidic soil (very common in Ireland) don't last.

Again, the delaying tactics by the RCC coming into play; how do you get away with a crime? Destroy the evidence.

In my opinion, I doubt there are 796 babies buried in that septic chamber. As Catherine Corless says, there are other sites that now have playgrounds over them that also could have been used. And, I personally think with the falsification of records done by the RCC, some number of those 'deaths' were actually baby sales. There'd be no problem faking up a name and birth cert for the babies that were sold, and telling the mother the child died. All for the greater ~~glory~~ profit of the RCC.

Cluedo Monopoly · 15-11-2021 09:59PM

'Groundbreaking': Survivors welcome inquiry into Mother and Baby Homes in Northern Ireland (thejournal.ie)

'Groundbreaking': Survivors welcome inquiry into Mother and Baby Homes in Northern Ireland

The NI Executive is accepting all the recommendations made by an expert panel last month.

A PUBLIC INQUIRY will be held in Northern Ireland to investigate mother and baby homes, Magdalene laundries and workhouses in the region, it has been confirmed.

Speaking at Stormont today, Deputy First Minister Michelle O’Neill said all the recommendations made by an expert panel last month have been accepted and that a public inquiry will examine the “past and present human rights violations” experienced by survivors.

“All institutions involved, including religious institutions, will be expected to cooperate from the onset of an independent panel and if they choose not to they will be compelled to do so by the full statutory inquiry.”

Dr. Maeve O'Rourke helped them set up this public inquiry with the correct terms and powers.

stockshares · 17-11-2021 05:01PM

The Redress scheme announced a couple of days ago has been widely criticized.

One of the reasons is that it includes a stipulation that children incarcerated for a period of less than 6 months would not be eligible for redress.

There is no time limit on experiencing trauma.

This point was covered on todays Joe Duffy show which I will post a link to later when Rte have it up on their website.

It was also covered in the opening to Ray Darcy's show. A Psychiatrist who wrote a book on the subject said that Trauma can have severe implications for children from as early as two months of age. The name of the book is called What Happened to You?: Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and Healing https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250223180/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_navT_g_4GFGBMTM643GYVJTETA4

Ray Darcy has posted this Book and the quoted page to Roderic O Gorman. Hopefully ROG reads it and won't come to any more ignorant conclusions like the one he came to in imposing this time limit on Redress.I will post this link later also.

Mairead Enright also appeared on Morning Ireland this morning. She has a thread on the subject here. https://twitter.com/maireadenright/status/1460868530837020676?t=jHgKjiQ1-FC7BJV60H2HYw&s=19

It's extraordinarily petty and lacking in empathy of the Government to impose a time limit for redress and it can only be assumed that this is an attempt at cost cutting, just like when they refused to include institutions like Saint Patrick's Guild in the Reports terms of reference.

There is a lot of evidence already in the public domain about what happened in St Patrick's Guild. Given the the fact that it was the largest institution in the State and was not included in the Report all but confirms the Report was an attempt at a cover up and to reduce the cost of the States liability. This was also covered on the Joe Duffy show today.

Ive read back over this thread and the other Tapes thread on the subject and there is a lot of to and fro between Church supporters/apologists and posters who are supportive of people who have been in M+B homes and it's draining.

The fact that both the Tuam babies and the Babies in Bessborough have not received any justice or been treated with the respect that they deserve after all these years is an indictment of this State.

The fact that some posters here choose to defend the Church and attack anyone who supports the M+B Home Survivors and their desire for Justice is an indictment of them.

Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

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