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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭Multipass


    Oh god don’t put that out there, we’ll all end up paying for them to have brand new, state of the art EVs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,465 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    We do know the costs for an average house. A heat pump and controls and other requirements are c.€10k-€14k. Solar panels from €5k-€8k. New energy efficient doors and windows are €5k+. Mechanical heat recovery ventilation €2k-€5k. Add on inflation also and this is all very expensive stuff and we know from the Climate Action Plan that the bulk of this cost is expected to be carried by private households.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,270 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The difference is stuff you are politically opposed to is labelled as 'fanatical' while stuff you agree with is 'realistc'

    In 1946 the first rural electricity pole was installed in dublin, less than 20 years later, every rural parish in the country had an electricity supply.

    Yet you think its impossible for Ireland to modernise our grid over the course of a decade

    You call yourself a realist. Yet the reality of our need to act on climate change is conspicuously absent from all of your posts.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,465 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980



    The Climate Action Plan clearly sets out that the private individual is expected to carry the bulk of the cost of this through personal debt. It's not going to work. My household and many others around the country can't afford retrofits or expensive EVs and certainly won't and can't take on huge amounts of debt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,270 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Make it your political priority that the cost of these changes should not be placed on the citizens, but rather the state should fund with central bank instruments and roll it out that way.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,270 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The climate action plan will need to be changed then. All of Europe are in the same boat. The ECB should be financing this and it can be paid for over decades as part of the national debt repayments. The cost of not doing it are much higher than the costs of doing it in the long term.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,270 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The sooner the Fossil Fuel industry realise that they're not in the business of selling fossil fuels, but in the business of selling energy, then there will be a modern Oil rush as their vast resources are put into generating clean energy before they get completely left behind and stuck with a load of stranded assets

    Right now, they're using COP to try to squeeze the last bit of value from those assets, but we cannot let them do this, every billion they make from selling Oil Coal and Gas, is going to cost many times that amount in the costs of dealing with climate change

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I think, by and large, they have realised it. They just want to change far slower than is necessary.

    I'm also skeptical of how much they will continue to try and push fossil fuels in developing countries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Not so, there were houses with no power well into the 70s and unless they find some way of controlling the prices ,we are heading back to people sitting in the dark,

    First came Mini ice age then hole in the ozone, then Global warming and now climate change when we didn't get the Indian summers they promised, may as well throw the Millenium bug in there to keep with the scaremongering, current fad will have passed in a few years and there'll be some new piece of consumption orientated catastrophe,

    Enid getting into the cronyism full swing and him dosed to the eyeballs,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Fossil fuels are going nowhere, its easy to get caught up in the bubble of whats happening here in Ireland but we are a rich European country and even we are having issues reducing our emissions and getting people to buy electric cars, what do you think will be happening in most of China, eastern Europe, Russia, Asia, Africa, south america and even the USA that have actual vast amounts of poor people in the next 10 years?

    Very f#cking little is the answer, they will continue burning whatever they can find to stay warm and driving whatever crappy car they can afford, Green ideologies are only for those that can afford to have them.



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  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Looks like inflation is going to encourage more and more people to switch to greener options in terms of heating, transport etc

    Petrol prices were up 22%, diesel prices increased by 25% and home heating oil jumped by 71% last month compared to October last year.


    Electricity prices were up 15.5%, while gas prices saw a 23% hike.

    Heating oil 71% year over year, jesus h

    I'm more set than ever on heat pump + insultation + solar. At the rate its going the payback period is getting shorter and shorter.

    I don't see inflation below 3-4% next year too, still too much of the global supply chains messed up



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    In reality it's the Greens selling a vehicular variation of a new smartphone, next year they'll be peddling a newer version, whole movement has roots in blatant consumerism



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 549 ✭✭✭B2021M




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    It won't NCT and won't be insurable, Irish people never liked Jaguars , poorly assembled English junk, do you even drive?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,465 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Even if you suddenly saved €1k annually on your bills from doing that (you won't) it would take 25-30 years to pay back the €25k-€30k outlay to get heat pumps and associated ventilation and air tightness for it to work properly, and to pay for the solar panels. Possibly more depending on how old your house is. The solar panels might be worth it but those heat pumps are useless for most homes not designed for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Inflation is inflation though, the costs of all those energy upgrades have also very likely increased 20% in the last year due to material and labour shortages while the grants for them have remained fixed as far as I know.

    Even the new ESB smart meter tariffs being offered aren't all that appealing compared to the old rates and they were sold to the public as encouraging a new wave of smart energy usage patterns, the sad thing is there is still a lot to be said for getting a fill of heating oil when prices are low during the summer compared to the spikes in electricity and natural gas prices we are seeing now.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Are you getting a gold plated heat pump lol

    Per here

    Air source heat pump installations usually cost between €8,500 and €14,500, depending on the size and power of the heat pump, how much hot water storage you require and whether you want the heat pump to be controllable over the internet.

    So lets say middle of the road, 11k

    However you also qualify for 3,500 grant so that brings it to 7,500

    Plus EI offer credits up to 1,000 on your electric bill, but let say you get half of those, takes the cost to 7k.

    Solar panels, without batteries, depends on the size of your system, but a 3kw system would be 5,500 minus grant of 1,800 leaves 3,700

    So for the sum total of 11,200, I'd be able to get the lot per those sites.

    Another plus, as I no longer drive, I can sell any excess power back to the grid (FIT rates due early next year I think).

    Either way, for less than half the money you are quoting I'd be done and dusted



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,465 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    You haven't factored in new doors and windows and air tightness works - all needed for your new heat pump to work properly. Possible wall insulation depending on age of the house and a new ventilation system. Your new heat pump will most likely need new rads also to work properly. So no you wouldn't be done and dusted. Heat pumps are useless without doing significant air tightness and other ancillary works. Not many people realise what's actually needed for them - it's not just swapping out one system for another, it needs a huge upgrade to the fabric of the building.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,623 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The same Mary Robinson that disgraces herself cosying up to the Dubai royal family regarding Princess Latifa and resigned as President before her term was up to take up a higher profile post with the U.N. ?

    I hope you will pardon me on not giving a rat arse what that self seeking publicist is frustrated about.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,623 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    There are a lot of variables in there such as mileage, battery supply plus the costing is pretty vague with only figures from a private company established for the purpose, so I cannot see many ripping their cars apart to convert them based on just that article.

    That said, it certainly sounds like a good idea at the price mentioned, but it would not lead me to have any more faith in our present green policies. It would make me question why we have heard nothing about this possibility rather than the nonsense of 1 million expensive new electric cars by 2030. If I was a conspiracy theorist I would be tempted to believe our Green party got in early on electric car manufacturing shares.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Quoted prices are linked, raise it with the relevant link owners

    You are basically going with the worst case and highest costs and waving it around as if it would be the norm, it would not. I'll concede there are varying levels of upgrades required depending on the age of the home in question, however for a hell of a lot of places there will only be minimal upgrades required if any at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,623 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    From your post you appear to have a better understanding of rural one-off housing than it might suggest.

    The vast majority of those that live in one-off housing are as you say those that have been gifted a site by their family who are farmers. For that reason without having to pay the crazy prices a site would cost in an urban sprawl they can afford to build their own homes rather than add to the numbers waiting for eons for social housing and thus being a drain on the economy. They also very often have their own water supply and sewerage system of septic tanks (much more eco friendly than raw sewage being pumped into rivers and the sea which is still common practice for many urban areas) and again, no drain on public finances. Electricity supply may require a new line but for that "privilege" they pay through the nose.

    Like everything in life a "free site" is rarely if ever free. There may be no contract but there is as often as not a tacit understanding that it comes with them being around to help out on the farm when needed, and that they will be there for the provider of the "free site" to look after them in old age. Something that is saving the state countless millions on an annual basis.

    Of course you can always go the road of moving everyone into urban sprawls at gigantic expense and wipe out farming and farming communities by doing so, but you are going to end up with the very tricky problem that your food supply will run short. Unless it is a case of being in favour of the very questionable practise of intensive super farms providing it there would be no other option.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,465 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    I'm not taking the worst case scenario. It's a fact you need air tightness for those heat pumps to work properly otherwise they'll cost you as much as a traditional gas boiler to heat your house. The Climate Action Plan itself says that upgrades would range from €14k - €66k depending on building age and fabric. Take it up with the government if you don't believe the figures.

    Why don't you get a BER Advisory Report and come back here and see if your confidence that the only things you need done is a heat pump and solar panels for €11k is correct?



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hmm, so I wasn't far off with my back-of-an-envelope 11k estimate, good to know



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,465 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    That's for recently built modern houses that require only little upgrade but still €14k! And you know that too but just being a bit obtuse. Anyway why not get that BER cert and test out your theory?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree. I think that the cost of filling the 1000l oil tank will soon force the hands of rural dwellers at least.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Your point about the 14-66k prompted me to go back again to the action plan as surely there must be something in there to assist with paying for upgrades, especially for the likes of those in D/E/F & G rated homes.

    Turns out there are a number of actions

    1. Grants
    2. A low cost loan scheme
    3. Potential EU funding
    4. Potential tax incentives

    So yeah, its going to cost to do it, of course it is, but some things like these will take the sting out of it.

    image.png




  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Bought and moved in recently so already got one and already have a long list of planned upgrades, mentioned it already in this or another climate related thread.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    yes for us in the long term.

    a centemetre at first, but that will eventually become a metre, which will be beyond a problem.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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