Perfect on the outside, sham on the inside…

JoChervil · 05-11-2021 05:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123883#Comment_118123883

Go to a counsellor to get rid of anger, which layer covers love. To dig to a love layer.

JoChervil · 05-11-2021 05:22PM

As OP said, we can only control ourselves. So we can only control our reactions.

Going to a counsellor even on his own, would give him control over his reactions. So when his wife would lash out next time, he would hug her and could have a meaningful conversation with her instead of walking on eggs shells.

standardg60 · 05-11-2021 05:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123968#Comment_118123968

You've clearly done the same yourself, given your meaningful conversation with the OP

Big Bag of Chips · 05-11-2021 05:58PM

A number of posters are now engaging in a discussion between themselves. I don't want to delete posts that might be of help to the OP, but in this forum we ask that posters advise the OP rather than discuss issues amongst themselves.

The OP has come asking for advice on his issue. Address replies to him, offering advice or don't post.

Anyone unfamiliar with The Forum Charter that is specific to this forum can read it here.

direstraits2021 · 05-11-2021 07:04PM

Op here - at least this is re-affirming for me that there’s no simple answer here.

Couple of things struck me in the exchanges;

There was a lot made of not highlighting any “nice things”’ I do for my wife - to be honest I just didn’t emphasise this because I didn’t want to be seen as pointscoring…as I said all along, we are in a very fortunate position lifestyle wise so enjoy going for nice dinners, holidays, day trips and casual spend like flowers etc so in my head there’s not much more I could do here.

I have to admit, I am a little surprised with the gender bias at times here, much has been made of the “toxicity” of my silent treatment but my wife’s refusal to engage is being rationalised as “people usually don’t want to talk, when they stop seeing sense in talking” as one poster put it - THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL and is at the heart of why I’ve just withdrawn.

TheadoreT · 05-11-2021 07:17PM

I'll say one thing. I've heard infinitely more stories of people getting out of these situations and finding happiness again than those staying in a sexless marriages and that spark being reignited.

I haven't read anything in your post that would indicate you'd be in the slim minority that could make it work again. Not sure what lead to this point but your actions of late will have only worsened your chances and built her resentment further.

I think an amicable spit would be best for all involved here. You're only mid thirties, its waaaay too young to both be this miserable with life.

05-11-2021 07:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124410#Comment_118124410

Looks to me,like the whole situation/marraige is dead in the water....

yous have tried and rightly or wrongly she'll not meet yous halfway,maybe she checked out ages ago and hasnt wanted to call it??

...you wouldnt let a sibling/mate put up with such a scenario,dont let yourself either......but yous run the risk of her moving home with kids etc in event of a breakup....would yous stay on aboard,or move home to be near kids?....these are types of questions yous need to be thinking of.....

No point in holding bitterness/placing blame for a breakup,its one of those things in life

05-11-2021 07:34PM

One thing is for sure - giving ultimatum's don't solve anything. It just makes everyone dig their heels in.

Big Bag of Chips · 05-11-2021 07:38PM

OP, gender biases are generally not allowed in this forum. It doesn't stop people commenting though. However, sometimes hearing a woman's specific perspective or a man's specific perspective can sometimes offer insight that we might not otherwise have thought of.

Like it or not men and women do often think very differently. And when you are in conflict with your partner you are also going to be coming at the problem from opposing sides. Both sides defending their position. So I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss either 'side' as gender bias.

But the obvious advice here is to try talk to each other. Either laying it out bare and refusing to not discuss, refusing to allow her to avoid it and not talk. Or insisting that you go to mediation/counselling with a view to repairing your marriage or separating amicably.

The other option is to either fight, argue, ignore, and live in constant conflict and/or eventually separate acrimoniously leaving everyone in pieces.

smurfjed · 05-11-2021 09:32PM

As an expat, I do believe that it’s possible that “couples counselling” doesn’t exist in your country, or if it does, it will be religiously biased towards you rather than your wife, and it may not be the solution that some people think.

Career wise you shall probably remain in that country, but what about your family? Their residence is probably based on your job, and while your salary might be good, will it support another household in that country ?

Then the kids, what are the schooling options for them in the next 5-10 years? Are they better off in that country or Ireland? Are they better off with a father that sees them every night rather than every 2-3 months?

As others have said, your wife has had a full time 24/7 job for the last 4 years, so what have you done to make her feel appreciated? Not just money, but your time, go back to the initial dates that you had, remember the fun that you had that lead you to marriage. Can you use your maid/nanny to allow you to have date nights again, make her feel appreciated and if the feelings are still there, hopefully things survive.

GOOD LUCK.

Princess Calla · 05-11-2021 11:21PM

OP there's a thread in the parenting forum, subsection newborns and toddlers titled "Dad Support"

It's a fairly recent thread idea is a "safe space" for dads to vent on the reality of small children.

You might find it of benefit to see how other dad's are coping as I said it's relatively new so not too long a thread.

FintanMcluskey · 06-11-2021 12:13AM

OP your scenario is incredibly common in marriages with young kids, IMO all marriages with kids turn out like this, certainly until the kids are much older.

The birth of kids will bring the death of passion,romance and the personality you married

Having children is incredibly hard on a woman, physically and emotionally, and the priority changes from romance to safely raising those children above all else.

If I was giving my son romance advice, its that having kids often destroys it.

My advice to you, don't leave the home until you've given your best shot to repair this.

fits · 06-11-2021 09:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125779#Comment_118125779

That’s a bit extreme I think? Once the children get to the age of about four things free up an awful lot.

Shao Kahn · 06-11-2021 10:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126309#Comment_118126309

OP stated from the first post, that these problems have been present since before the children arrived. Pretty much the moment they got married, which I would say is not exactly par for the course.

And also that his wife may have brought some mental health issues into the marriage from the get go as well.

Two pregnancies will not have helped these issues, of course, but it seems highly likely that they are not the sole cause of the problems.

I think his wife has perhaps gotten used to bottling her problems up and not dealing with them. This can be a very frustrating situation for everyone involved (I'm sure herself included). At this point she may very well need some sort of strong intervention to pull her out of this pattern of behavior. We can all be very stubborn sometimes, and very reluctant to embrace change - particularly if it's connected with latent mental health issues.

You can say it might have been a rocky foundation to start a marriage, but that's irrelevant now. These issues can be difficult to spot when things are fresh and exciting in the early days of a relationship. And the blame game is also pointless and irrelevant too.

It really doesn't matter who is bringing more issues to the table. What matters is finding out exactly what the problems are, getting right to the route of them, and coming up with some solutions they can both work on.

Pretending there is no problems, when your spouse is on the verge of leaving you, is not a solution to anything.

I would agree with others that have said ultimatums are generally a bad idea. However, there comes a point where you may have no other options left on the table, other than to take a strong stance. If someone is deeply entrenched in a pattern of behavior for many years, that sort of intransigence cannot always be broken with soft language and open ended suggestions. As she has rejected these suggestions before.

People can lose many years of their life, even decades, to these types of problems. Because they are unwilling or unable to tackle them head on. Which is very sad, but unfortunately far more common than some people realize.

JoChervil · 06-11-2021 11:59AM

I don't think ultimatum ever works. It sometimes made a person comply on the surface but make their passive aggression even stronger. So in such case she would go to counsellor, but wouldn't cooperate, would sabotage it.

That's why I think problems with her since marriage might have come from it as well. OP just think, if together with marriage something changed in circumstances, which were not consulted with her? Because if was forced to something instead of talked into something, when she was heard and her opinion mattered, so it could explain her change in behaviour.

I don't believe in any actions based on fears, so I don't believe in any actions, which threaten others, because they then act of fear, not out of love, while OP craves for love. OP, you think your wife just got what she wanted and refused to cooperate further and it makes you angry. And such point of view could have narrowed your vision. So you might think that she got marriage, so that's it, she got what she wanted, so she stopped cooperating. So now having two kids together she got everything she wanted, so why she keeps lashing out? She should be perfectly happy person and your silent treatment or moving out wouldn't bother her. Your wife got crazy, had meltdown and keeps lashing out because she is hurting the same as you.

06-11-2021 12:56PM

The OP didn't say there was no intimacy from the start, just that once they were married the focus of their sex life shifted to trying to conceive.

The OP says they're both mid thirties, so assuming his wife was around 30 when they married, and wanted to have a family. It's common enough for women in their 30s, to become more focused on conceiving then passion, with the result that sex becomes mechanical. The biological clock can start ticking very loudly, and a woman's window of fertility is known to drop very signifcantly after 35.

That doesn't mean the passion can't be found again, but the peaks and troughs that come with a young family often explain why it may take some time.

Maybe something here may resonate with the OP?

My sister-in-law is a sex and relationship therapist, and has told me in conversation this is a very regular issue that comes up between the couples she counsels.

Big Bag of Chips · 06-11-2021 02:23PM

The thing to remember OP is that there is usually always a reason for someone's behaviour. Or their behaviour is a reaction to something else. You are reacting in a particular way to your wife's behaviour. Yet don't seem to accept in any way that she could have any cause whatsoever to react in a similar manner to your behaviour. Most of us like to think we're not the one at fault when things begin to go south in a relationship. But very very rarely is one person the sole cause of the decline in the relationship.

Life happens, and young, free, careless romances can quickly turn to something else when life, work, finances, responsibilities take over. From the posts here you must now see that your issue is very common amongst couples. Especially couples with young children. And it can't solely be the fault of all the women/mothers. Equally it can not be purely the fault of the men/fathers. It is pretty much guaranteed to be a combination of both. The problems arise when both pull away from each other, blaming the other.

Sometimes the couple can work through it and come back together. Sometimes, very often in fact, they end up walking away deciding it is not worth the hard work that it will inevitably be. Counselling is difficult as both sides will hear things about themselves that they might not like.

No one person is 100% at fault for your marriage troubles. That's something you both need to accept.

Princess Calla · 06-11-2021 03:11PM

OP the one thing that I notice from your posts is alot seems to centre around money.

I raised that before over chores...throw money at it.... outsource it.

You say you earn enough to facilitate your wife to be a stay at home mum..... however you don't seem to acknowledge the sacrifice your wife has made to stay at home and mind the children....is that because she didn't earn as much as you so therefore her career is not as important?

Also when asked what nice things you do for your wife , you list material things holidays, dinners flowers etc. When in reality nice things when kids are involved are letting your partner have a sleep in, or taking the kids out on your own for a few hours etc things that involve your time not your money.

Since the kids have arrived how has your life been impacted? (With the exception of intimacy) ....with your wife at home you don't need to worry about creche drop off/collections....if you have to work late your wife is there, if you want to stop off to the gym/go for a pint etc you can do all these things without much thought.

If someone feels underappreciated, undervalued etc resentment will build and they won't be very receptive to intimacy.

JoChervil · 06-11-2021 03:43PM

All those nice things, you didn't do solely for your wife. You did it also for yourself and had a companion in it. The questions were what you did solely for your wife meaning getting out of your way to do it for her. I agree it is about sacrificing your time and care, not money or work, which you would do or earn anyway.

bb1234567 · 07-11-2021 12:43AM

Havn't read through in enough detail to reply to everything yet , but I think the silent treatment was a poor way of going about the tension no matter how dire things were. I think you were intending for a particular result, ie. that she aggressively attacks you unprovoked so you can leave as the 'good guy' in the situation. There's no other way a silent treatment ends, as the tension builds to boiling point. So unfortunately no matter what your wife's temperament is , anyone would do the same. And you say your children's experience of this toxic environment, and improving that and changing it, is important to you. Well , again I don't see that being very true with the way the silent treatment was used. I thinkk actual verbal arguments would probably be less confusing for a child to witness than that. And as a final point, you are still the parent of the children just as much as she is, that can't work without communication. Really, stop the silent treatment asap, it's not fair on anybody and gives nobody a chance. It really doesn't do anything at all bar create more problems .

standardg60 · 07-11-2021 01:13AM

Imagine the OP has received as much advice as he can from this thread, even if it's so he can know that he doesn't have to be alone in his situation. I do wonder if introducing his wife to it could be a stepping stone to opening up their issues with each other?

Shao Kahn · 07-11-2021 01:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129891#Comment_118129891

I actually disagree with this.

Even though the silent treatment might make her angry and frustrated, it might also force her to eventually engage. At the moment it's the OP that is deeply frustrated with her behavior and lack of willingness to even acknowledge the problems, never mind work through them.

If he just plays along and plays happy families, then she will just continue down the same path and pretend everything is fine when it's not.

With the silent treatment, the OP can continue to remind her that he is not happy with the current situation. Without saying a single word, and without raising his voice or getting angry. It's a silent protest, and a constant reminder that he wants her to acknowledge there are problems that need addressing.

Much better than getting angry or aggressive, as men very often end up being blamed for arguments when we lose our temper and get angry - it automatically becomes the man's fault just for being man! (Regardless of how much provocation went on beforehand)

Big blazing rows, where he gets in a shouting match with her, is not the answer.

bucketybuck · 07-11-2021 01:33AM

OP, don't let anybody spoof you that this is just a tired mammy looking after children and that you are asking for too much.

It is not asking for too much to ask for some communication, for her to tell you what she thinks, to speak to you and tell you what is going on. If it has been months and years and she still won't do anything to find a balance with you then it would be foolish to think it is ever going to change now.

We all want things to work for for the best, for that light switch to flick on and problems to get resolved.

But life is short and you shouldn't waste it waiting for somebody who probably treats you worse than any stranger she meets. I mean that, I bet when she meets other people she smiles and asks how they are? But when is the last time she asked how you are?

If I knew this girl I would speak to her, but this is your thread and I would advise you that life is too short to spend decades with a woman who won't communicate with you.

07-11-2021 06:59AM

Just some links for the OP to read on the effects of the silent treatment. His wife reacted pretty typically.

https://www.healthline.com/health/silent-treatment

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/everyday/10959724

Princess Calla · 07-11-2021 10:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130014#Comment_118130014

Silent treatment is emotional abuse.

Start going down this route and your relationship is abusive.

I know people who have been in emotional and physical abusive relationships and their opinion was the emotional abuse was much more damaging as they started questioning their own sanity, confidence eroded etc

Even if the tactic did work and she did go to therapy, she's going because she has been coerced not because she sees there's an actual problem. It's abit like dragging an alcoholic to an AA meeting...unless they are willing to admit there's a problem all the meetings in the world is not going to help them.

It's also widely acknowledged that a woman's libido drops after birth and can take time to come back....a medical fact. It's also widely acknowledged that abuse starts when a woman is pregnant, which is why couples will be separated during an antenatal visit.

We also know that majority of women are more connected to the emotional side of sex rather than the actual physical side. Very hard to get an emotional connection when being subjected to silent treatment.

I'm not saying the OP is wrong feeling frustrated but I do think his approach to the problem has made it alot worse.

TheadoreT · 07-11-2021 12:02PM

I never really buy the tired parents excuse for passion completely erroding in a relationship. It's ultimately about respect and connection.

Sex usually goes one of two ways in longer relationships, either familiarity can make things stale and awkward and contempt grows, or there's a deep connection and it's a regular way of expressing love for one another.

Lots chose to ignore early signs of lack of connection for many reasons, ticking clock, financial security, denial that it will improve, thinking they can't do any better, fear of being single ect... And then hide behind "doing it for the kids" as an excuse to stay, but happy parents apart is far preferable to miserable ones together.

I can't think of anything worse than forcing the issue when it comes to sex or affection, if it comes to the point where you're being regularly rejected by your partner it's over. If it comes to a point where you need to communicate this to a partner it's over. It's either there or it isn't and the thought of agreeing to some duty bound sex once a week to save the marriage is grim.

People only fight these things as it can make them feel bad about their own situation, but you can find something lasting and amazing and you'll never live your happiest life settling.

JoChervil · 07-11-2021 02:21PM

We don't know many things but we know that wife's attitude change around their wedding day. Therefore if I was OP, I would investigate it.

Therefore I think it would be good if OP answered himself these questions:

Did something significant happened around the time of wedding?

Was the decision to live abroad yours or both of you?

If it was yours, was your wife given a proper choice?

Did she have to scarify anything for you like family, friends, her job and country?

Was she working when abroad before kids arrived?

We also know that OP thinks money can buy or compensate anything. In my opinion they can't. Otherwise OP would be perfectly happy. Of course he should be appreciated for what he provides.

If money compensated for example respect, care, love, so a person would be an object then, not a person with a free will.

JoChervil · 07-11-2021 02:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130014#Comment_118130014

There are other ways to deal with problems than silent treatment or a blazing row.

Some might use "non-violent communication" (a book by Marshall Rosenberg), other might use technics by using another person's own emotions to open them (similar to martial arts using another person strength for fight).

Big Bag of Chips · 07-11-2021 03:04PM

Posters are reminded that Relationship Issues is an advice forum, not a discussion forum. Please bear that in mind and offer advice to the OP in replies.

Thanks,

BBoC

JupiterKid · 07-11-2021 04:10PM

Sorry for your problems, OP. The disintegration of mutual respect and communication is an all too common cause of the slow death of a relationship or marriage. If your wife refuses to engage in couples counseling, then I cannot see this marriage as viable in the medium to long-term.

Marriage is about the mutual support, respect and love between BOTH partners, not one being sidelined and ignored by the other.

Really despicable the way some posters here are voicing/rationalizing their misandrist agendas by blaming the OP for the issues. But that’s boards I suppose. A lot of noise to signal ratio with the posts, so to speak. As others here opined, if the genders were reversed the “advice” from many would be very different.

I have a friend (early 40s) in a similar predicament - zero engagement or affection from his wife, his two kids are about 6 and 8 now and he is deeply unhappy and drinking way too much - but he feels compelled to keep the marriage going for now because he would not want to hurt his elderly, very religious mother by them splitting up.

There must be many, many marriages like that of the OP. Lots of lovely shiny “happy family” Facebook posts and pics - but a hollow world of pain and loneliness behind the facade.

Perfect on the outside, sham on the inside…

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