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Why don't we have ACTUAL universal healthcare like the rest of Europe?

  • 21-10-2021 06:18PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 430 ✭✭Jeremy Sproket


    On paper we have "universal" healthcare. But the thing is ... we don't really.

    You still have to pay €60 to see a GP (there are no public versions of GPs here, it is entirely privatised with medical cards for some).

    Most dental care is private too.

    There is a similar amount of money going into the HSE as there is going into the NHS (per capita), but the HSE is appalling in comparison.

    Means testing is the most unfair part. People who need important care such as cancer treatment, surgery etc. are means tested. Those who bothered to save and put by during their lives have to pay to access healthcare and those who pissed all their money away don't.

    If this new "Sláinte Care" is brought in, I wouldn't mind paying for it monthly from my salary. But knowing the way this country works, it'll probably be means tested. Those who are already paying excessive amounts from their salary for Sláinte will have to pay again at the point of service because they earn "too much".



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,324 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    Because the government is looking after VHI, Laya and the private hospitals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    You have to pay for GP visits in many European countries.

    Eg Netherlands


    In Sweden they charge as well


    Patient Fees in Sweden

    "A doctor's appointment at a health centre costs between 100-300 SEK. An appointment with a gynaecologist or pediatrician costs between 200-350 SEK and a visit to the emergency room will cost you about 220-400 SEK. If you need to be hospitalised you will pay maximum 100 SEK a day."

    In Belgium it's not free.


    "The fixed fee for a visit to a general physician in Belgium in 2019 is €21.79 (€26.27 if accredited). "


    It's only the evil Tory scum in the UK who hand out free GP care so you will be healthy for work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,300 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yup, theres major wealth extraction occurring by using the insurance industry, but its a little unfair to ultimately blame them, theres an astonishing amount of waste occurring on the public side also, add these two together and you get our health system



  • Posts: 19,178 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You can be waiting 3/4 weeks for an appointment to see a GP in England, NHS isn't as great as.you think.

    You pay to see a doctor in Finland also, cheaper then here but not free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    There's no such thing as a free health care system.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 430 ✭✭Jeremy Sproket


    Of course. Never implied there was :P It's paid through taxation.


    In most of Europe healthcare is free (at the point of use) or else very heavily subsidised. Here, the HSE receives similar revenue streams per capita to that of our European neighbours yet we are paying similar to what an American would have to pay for surgeries etc, even on the public system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    According to the link above the promised land of public services, Sweden, charges at the point of entry. Looks like Belgium and the Netherlands do also. Is there data on countries that don't.



  • Posts: 13,753 ✭✭✭✭ Shawn Defeated Gumdrop


    Because Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil love looking after their boyos in the insurance industry.

    Thankfully Pearse Doherty has become and pain in that particular arse.



  • Posts: 19,178 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I know plenty of people who went to A&E and ended up staying in hospital for a week or more. They didn't pay anything more then 100 Euro for their treatment.

    That's pretty alright and nowhere near American costs.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    The electorate have been trained to reject tax rises, the established parties buy votes at each budget; yet public funds are wasted through mismanagement or paybacks to the old boys club.

    Serious reform and transparency is needed, and many countries are in the same way.

    The Boston vs Berlin debate (*) is still an unresolved question in this country though; who do we really want to be?


    (*) My age showing there.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭silliussoddius




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so



    It's more to do with people not wanting to pay the level of taxation necessary to support. Vested interests too play a big part including the various medical groups and unions. Slaintecare is supposed to take care of all of this but I don't blame anyone for looking at private insurance under our present set up.



  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nonsense tbh. We spend as much per capita for the HSE as the Brits do for the NHS. Considering the difference in cost, speed and quality there is plenty of room for improvement with what we're currently spending.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,899 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    I have never waited to see my GP, I call in the morning and I have an appointment for that day, I dunno where people are living that they have to wait weeks to see a GP but I've never heard of it happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    Yes, the provision of GPs is private, they are self-employed. I suspect that is the situation in many countries?

    Does anybody want all GPs to be HSE employees? I don't think the GPs want that, do they?


    Yes, access to the medical card is means-tested, yes, but your post seems to suggest that access to hosps is means-tested. It is not. Since the 1970 Health Act, there is universal access to hosps.


    Slaintecare will not be means-tested, Slainetcare is an expansion of tax-financing of healthcare. People will pay more tax, but they can drop their health insurance. That's the idea, anyways.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    You can’t reform the HSE because the People working in the HSE don’t want it.

    the only solution for people working in it is to have more money pumped into it.

    For the budget it receives it should be a hell of a lot better



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    So where is the money going to? Why the difference? A rhetorical question I suppose; I don't know the answer, nor am I looking one from you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    There are four possible fees for healthcare in Ireland:

    (1) GP fees, zero if you have a GMS

    (2) pharmacy prescriptions, very low if you have GMS, otherwise capped at 100 pm

    (3) ED fee = 100, zero if you have a letter from GP, or GMS

    (4) overnight fee in hosp = 80, again zero if you have GMS



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I think that some people seem to think that GP fees are zero everywhere else.

    That is not the case.

    In France, GP fee = 25.

    Your compulsory public health insurance covers 70%, you pay 7.50.



  • Posts: 3,842 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    the NHS is not “the rest of Europe”. Germany is part private part public like here, and you pay at point of use - if you can - like here. this applies to public patients as well, who are then reimbursed

    The health charge is 15% of your wages, but you can opt out and go private which can be cheaper for the young. Stay in the private sector too long and you are stuck there and unlike here the private costs are not community rated. I know someone paying 1K a month approaching retirement.



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  • Posts: 3,842 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The NHS is also a basket case, but it’s impossible to criticise.



  • Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Medical cards held by 1/3rd the population add doctor visit cards and up to half the population have effectively free visits. A ten euro flat fee for every visit to a healtcare provider would do more for waiting times than any other initiative

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    The price of healthcare in Ireland is way higher than other countries, the volumes are not.

    Example: payment to GP for vaccinations.

    Ireland = 25 + 25 + 10 = 60

    UK = GBP12.58 + 12.58


    Another example: Irish GP charges 50+, French GP charges 25



  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Plenty of people making plenty of money. People like to go on about the HSE clerical staff or w/e but let's be honest, there's people getting paid what they'd get paid in England while also working privately as well. Doctors, consultants and dentists can pretty much charge what they want and there's no oversight. And they're dead right to do it, but for some reason we have to let on like they're all benevolent heroes and selfless angels. They're looking to charge as much as they can in a marketplace with huge barriers to entry for new sellers.

    A simple example for you. I needed a dental procedure done. All in it would have cost close enough to 2 grand here, assuming the final bill matched the estimate which never happens. Who would've imagined an X-ray might be (definitely) required but not included in their published price. Just over the border I've spent around 500 so far and might have to spend another 500. Funnily enough if you go a bit further from the border (which would mean a full day off work if travelling from the south) the price falls by another 20-30%. Rents in those places are the same yet for some reason the dentist who can generate more demand "needs" to charge a quarter more than a guy 20 miles away.

    A quick Google says half of Irish people have health insurance. Which shows just how bad the public system is that even with half the population going private (plus people paying out of pocket) the public system is pretty much fucked. Someone will probably make a ham-fisted attempt to compare with the UK but over there it looks like 11% of people feel the need for private health insurance.



  • Posts: 3,842 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Blaming the taxpayer is blaming the people on the trolley.



  • Posts: 19,178 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They wait for weeks for doctors appointments in leeds



  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wut? I'm not blaming the taxpayer. The taxpayer pays enough, as is obvious since we spend as much as the Brits on their NHS.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,911 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    edit

    Post edited by SuperBowserWorld on


  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    3 week wait for me to give my GP 60 quid. Took someone else I know a couple of weeks to get an appointment. Not to go to the appointment, just to get a date for an appointment because she was removed from her GPs books and none of the practices in town would take on new patients til she got a bit of luck.

    Waiting a couple of weeks for an appointment that'll be free, with possibly free drugs if needed, free consultant if needed (might have to wait 6 months like it's the end of the world) and no worry about cost of any further treatment... vs couple of weeks to hand over 60 quid, maybe another 30 (let's lowball) for prescription, hope ya don't need a consultant or that's another 200.

    Yeah, I think I know which is "better".



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    Yeah, my brother who lives in Cardiff has to go to private GP (and other) services because of waiting lists. This is the UK NHS governed by the Tories.



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