Madeleine McCann

Ben Needham - grandparents allowed him to run in and out of their farmhouse to play. Disappeared.

James Bolger - Mother was busy ordering meat at butcher's counter and he wandered outside the shop. Abducted and killed.

Sarah Payne - playing in cornfield near her grandparent's house with her siblings. Abducted and murdered.

April Jones - out playing on her bike with her friends in her estate. Abducted and murdered.

Children cannot always be watched 24/7. Predators will strike if they get even a tiny window of opportunity. Why are the parents of the children above not being decimated for their 'carelessness'? How many parents have ever lost sight of their child - even for a minute - in a supermarket, or shopping centre? I have. Would I have been to blame had some scumbag decided they had a right to take my child?

Before or since the Madeleine's disappearance, has anyone here ever heard of a child being taken from an apartment in a busy holiday resort? No? Neither had the McCanns. They had a reasonable expectation that their family would be safe in such a place, especially given that they were all checking frequently.

I truly believe the rush of judgement from some to blame the parents in this case, comes from a place where people feel the need to paint themselves as being super vigilant parents, even though we've all been in situations where we haven't always been super vigilant. We can't always be. It happens, we're human. Heaping blame on parents going through the worst nightmare imaginable is just plain cruel imo.

Tbf, the extent to which the McCanns left their children unattended goes well beyond the momentary parental absences any parent is guilty of.

I could identify with many of the parents listed in cases above, and think that it could happen to anybody. I could not identify with what the McCanns did, as it goes well beyond what I would ever consider acceptable as a parent.

So I can understand the criticism of them to some extent, it was not just something that any parent would do.

But when the criticism goes beyond that and extends into them killing Madeleine, or accidentally drugging her and then disposing of her body, that's when you know you're dealing with a real *****.

Fair enough, maybe the extent to which parents are willing to leave their kids unattended is more widespread than I thought. It still doesn't change my mind though, on the way in which it differs from the momentary lapses which are inevitably something all parents will be guilty of from time to time.

Yes, this is what I've also been driving at. Lots of parents would have done the same type of thing. It was just one of those things that lots of parents thought would be fine because helicopter parenting has not always been a thing.

Of course, in a post-Madeleine McCann world, lots of parents considering the same course of action might reconsider. Just like many would reconsider letting their adolescent son out to do an early morning paper round, because that's how Johnny Gosch was abducted, but it didn't make Noreen Gosch a reckless mother. She was no more permissive than any mother at the time, but she was a victim of the worst of circumstances, and attitudes shifted significantly after that incident.

I have plenty of genuine empathy for the parents. They've lost their child, which I wouldn't wish on the worst scumbag in the world.

And there will forever be a part of them that agonises over the decision to leave the kids alone, and how it could have been different. Now, that in itself is something that any parent who lost a child would do, regardless of the circumstances - "if only I hadn't bent down to tie my shoelaces", or "if only I had stayed home rather than going out to be hit by a drunk driver".

But the McCanns will, in my opinion, agonise even more than others. And I do empathise with them.

My parents left me and my brother alone in the cabin of passenger ship, while they went off and had some relief from children and a nice meal and evening in adult company. I was precocious brat and could easily have gone and jumped over the railings, another passenger could have come and opened the cabin door... The ship could have hit something and sank. A year or two later they let me climb to the very tip of a 40m tree, ride a bike to school on roads with cars on them, etc, etc. None of this do I consider reckless or irresponsible.

Unlike most others, I don't have the slightest problem with the McCann's risk assessment and actions. I do have a problem with Mark Warner resorts which told the nannies to never walk around the town after dark alone as it wasn't safe and didn't communicate this sort of thing to their guests and kept it to themselves.

Agree. That was a strange post. I think it's a case of someone with no empathy thinking they are the norm when the overwhelming majority of people are the opposite

My concern was about leaving two babies in cots and a toddler in a bed, all sleeping in one room in a strange environment with tiled floors, electrical items different from home to be explored, medicines etc.... and an open/unlocked door. This is on top of fact that Madeleine had cried out for a long period on a previous evening that week. There is some debate as to how frequent the 'checks' were. One of other parents has a baby listening device.

There is a video where Mrs Fenn angrily denies ever hearing or reporting crying and that she wasnt even aware anyone was staying in the apartment.

Any link to that video ?

Because here is a link to Mrs Fenns statement

f the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

Fast forward to 1:15