An Post returning packages from outside the EU-See 1st post

Marlay · 16-09-2021 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898940#Comment_117898940

It isn't the labels on the package, it's whether the package had electronic data submitted with it or not. There's no way to see that. Presumably the one that arrived did have that data.

Sparkling Gamorreans · 16-09-2021 12:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898982#Comment_117898982

Where does the electronic data emanate from? If an exporter in China went to their local post office to send a parcel should the Chinese postal service be asking the exporter to provide the required fields for a CN22 knowing the package is headed to Europe and the clerk inputs transcribes the data into an electronic system for transmission here? Anyone know what this practically looks like?

deezell · 16-09-2021 1:32pm

Here's how it looks from the UK. Tracked, untracked, franked are all mentioned. For small or private senders I guess you have to go to the post office, or else purchase a label from a courier. Business senders can use the software mentioned.

https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/electronic-customs-data

Marlay · 16-09-2021 1:40pm

Can only find information for Hong Kong (https://www.hongkongpost.hk/en/other/2020/ecustoms/index.html). Assume similar elsewhere.

" The customs information required is the same as currently provided in the paper declaration forms, which includes:

sender's information;
addressee's information; and
particulars of contents.

Hongkong Post has made various channels available for senders to submit their declarations. Customers can just sit back at home and make use of the online platforms of Easy PreCustoms (easy-precustoms.hongkongpost.hk/epc/?), ec-Ship and My Speedpost, or the Hongkong Post mobile App to submit the information. Or else they can make use of the kiosk and/or tablet readily available in all post offices to submit the information by following the simple steps.

As reminded by the postal administrations of the above destinations, all categories mail containing goods which do not come with electronic customs information will be subject to delays in customs clearance, or will not be processed. Senders are encouraged to provide return address on the mail items. In the absence of a return address, the returned item will be destroyed. Postage will not be refunded for return or disposal as a result of such circumstances."

RollingSun2000 · 16-09-2021 1:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898982#Comment_117898982

It's all good and well saying that, but An Post have been returning packages saying "no electronic data provided" and "requires CN23 label."

Maybe I should have emphasised that all my packages (including the one that I eventually received) have the CN22 label.

I have been working off the assumption that the CN23 label is the one that contains the needed electronic data, because they keep requesting it regardless of the weight and value threshold. If you go back to page 21, you will see I was also in contact with a mail forwarding service in Japan who will be working off that assumption from now on too (ie. everything coming into Ireland requires a CN23 label).

As Sparkling Gamorreans asked, how is this electronic data submitted? Does the sender do it? or does the post office do it when the sender is handing them the package? I think the answer is with the CN23 label, but that's only because I don't have experience sending things to Ireland and that sticker An Post is putting on returned packages. But yet An Post thinks it's my job to inform international sellers, even thought they don't clearly explain the problem to either of us.

Edit: I was typing this when Marlay replied
Edit 2: The more I think about it, maybe it did have electronic data this time. An Post knew my email! I'm surprised they didn't txt me, they had my number on the label.

Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy · 16-09-2021 1:57pm

So my Russia parcel actually arrived back to sender on September 7th even though An Post tracking still says "we'll try return to sender ". Seller never said but they confirmed today.

So yeah try other tracking sites like the country it came from or lile Track17 if you're getting that

I think it came via the Netherlands so thought that'd help but didn't

dashdoll · 16-09-2021 2:10pm

I had something delivered by the postman from Ali Express today. Ordered about 3 weeks ago. It was ent from China via Netherlands if that makes a difference. I noted when it was delivered that post NL had put a different label over the original one from China. Maybe that helped. My other package that An Post has "returned to sender" two weeks ago still has not arrived in China and is worth in excess of €200. There's no information showing in the tracking from the Chinese senders side either....infuriating.

cnocbui · 16-09-2021 3:01pm

My package tracking just says they would attempt to send my package back to Japan. this was dated 27-8-21. Nothing since so i have no way of knowing if it has been sent back or not or where it is.

Does anyone know the legal position? I get that duty can be charged at a certain rate, but does the legislation allow for that rate to essentially be 100% and for An Post to dispose of people's packages because they fail in being able to return them to the sender?

tvc15 · 16-09-2021 3:21pm

Can I ask why An Post are getting all the abuse? From my (limited) understanding, revenue and the EU have set the rules on what electronic data is required and it is all required to be electronic.

If An Post receives a package from outside the EU, they either have to pay the customs charges to revenue or they have to prove to revenue that they sent it back. So now that we have a mess of codes required related to every possible type of product. When An Post gets thousands of packages without the electronic data, are they really expected to go opening everything to manually put in all the codes? That sounds like a mammoth operation because other countries haven't entered the data electronically.

whiterebel · 16-09-2021 4:07pm

@tvc15 Did An Post tell the other postal authorities that these changes were being made? Australia Post knew nothing of it until they opened an investigation due to the volume of parcels being returned. They said they would implement the necessary changes immediately. USA, Japan and others all say the same thing. Tariff codes have always been required for imports from outside the EU. Now there is a much bigger volume due to the abolition of the lower VAT collection limit.

Sconsey · 16-09-2021 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899966#Comment_117899966

If An Post receives a package from outside the EU, they either have to pay the customs charges to revenue or they have to prove to revenue that they sent it back.

Well in my case AnPost charged me the customs and sent the parcel back! So now I have no parcel and I have to chase up with them to try to get the customs charge back. I think they deserve the abuse they are getting.

cnocbui · 16-09-2021 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899966#Comment_117899966

They are refusing to do what they had no problem doing a couple of months ago. That would be one reason they are getting more than justifiable stick. Pleading 'it's the rules' is pathetic. Do you think the Irish governemnt can justifiably tax me for my CO2 footprint while causing An Post to send tonnes of packages back to Asia, which if eventually returned, will have a completely unnecessary 3 times the CO2 generated in transportation.

If taxing CO2 expenditure, fossil fuels used in transport and to heat homes, is legitimate, then this action by An Post is not.

dxhound2005 · 16-09-2021 5:04pm

There is some information here from An Post, chiefly about Data Protection.

https://www.anpost.com/Privacy/Data-protection-customs-2020-notice

Outgoing Mail

If you are posting an item, which contains goods (i.e., has content other than ordinary letter/correspondence), to a destination outside of the EEA, then you must take certain steps.

You will be requested at the counter,( or online if using our online service to purchase labels) when mailing such an item to enable the creation of the ITMATT message.

You must give the required information described above, including name and address of sender, the name, address, email address and contact phone number of the addressee and the contents of the item. This data is affixed to the item and is also sent electronically to the destination country and to the airline(s) which carry the item.

As sender of the item, you acknowledge that by inputting the recipient’s details that you have lawful grounds, such as their consent, to do so and that we are entitled to process that personal data to provide the required services.

This electronic data, known as ITMATT, is firstly transferred to the International Postal Corporation (IPC) in Belgium and then transferred by IPC to the destination country. The ITMATT is transferred to the airlines which will carry the item the postal administration in the destination country and to the customs authority in the destination country.

The ITMATT is also transferred to the airline who will originally carry the item. The airline will not carry a consignment of mail without ITMATT being present for all items in the consignment.Once the item is supplied to An Post and paid for then the item enters the postal system and the ITMATT cannot be changed nor can the item be retrieved.

The ITMATT data is retained for as long as reasonably necessary to fulfil the purposes we collected it for, including for the purposes of satisfying legal, regulatory, tax, or reporting requirements; and will be held for a period four years in order to process any queries from the sender, the recipient, customs authorities and other postal administrations.

notahappycamper · 16-09-2021 5:52pm

So this “ITMATT message” is what is needed to be submitted by the sender of an item from every country outside of the EU that is being sent into Ireland?

Does every single shipper/person outside of the EU know they have to or even how to do this???!!

Fcuk sake this is a sh*t storm…

dxhound2005 · 16-09-2021 6:04pm

Not only into Ireland, but into all of the EU plus USA and lots of other countries. All foreign postal administrations know about it, and if they are claiming otherwise they are lying.

https://auspost.com.au/sending/send-overseas/customs-forms-regulations/electronic-advance-data-ead

whiterebel · 16-09-2021 6:31pm

And yet shippers don't seem to be having anywhere near the problems that they are getting with Ireland. Of course, everyone else is lying, but An Post.

According to the Australia Post page this was due in in Ireland soon 1st January, and we are not one of the ones that were starting in July. Why didn't these problems start in January?

Of course, my supplier, who ships worldwide from Australia is lying as well when he says that he hasn't been having these problems anywhere else.

dodzy · 16-09-2021 6:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900703#Comment_117900703

Its pretty simple in fairness.

Want to post package to Australia (2kgs) to relative as an example.

Bring package to local PO.
They will weight it, ask you for your contact details & non-detailed description of contents (stipulating no liquids)
You choose the postal option (basic/non-tracked, tracked etc)
You pay, job done.

Incidentally, the Australian rates took a serious hike recently as they re-zoned Oz. It had been dirt cheap to send small packages up to a few mths ago but price has now almost doubled.

Sparkling Gamorreans · 16-09-2021 8:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900842#Comment_117900842

Were the new EU VAT rules due to originally be implemented on 1 January 2021 but was deferred back to 1 July?

SPDUB · 16-09-2021 8:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900842#Comment_117900842

Sorry if the USPS itself is saying it doesn't know anything about this situation then it is lying given that they are sending back a lot of stuff for lack of electronic data

PhilHill69 · 16-09-2021 8:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899966#Comment_117899966

The HS / Taric / trade Tariff codes are not a new invention. They have been in existence for a good many years. They assist in classifying what the product is within a parcel, from a pair of knitted socks of synthetic fibres to .....a cow, and assist in showing the movement of trade around the globe. You will find that a vast majority of shippers have entered these codes quite correctly, and many electronic systems will now submit the electronic data on the shipment automatically. Like an email being sent telling whats in the parcel along with its taric codes, which will display as a barcode on the label on the package, which when scanned will show the product classification, how much the value of the product is, and assist in what vat is due. An Post is getting the abuse, as it is sending a great proportion of parcels back to sender, or holding them for weeks on end....and then sending back to sender....even if all the above is correct. I agree it is a mammoth operation, I wouldn't like to do it....but then again I am not a National Postal service. with in house customs processing. An Post is!

whiterebel · 16-09-2021 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901309#Comment_117901309

USPS don't seem to do anything thats required anyway, probably why Addresspal was so useful from the US.

Japan, Australia, UK all seem to be in the dark.

An Post couldn't/wouldn't tell anyone what was wrong, either the importer or the sending PO

Took payment for VAT and sent stuff back

Said they were sending it back, and then delivered it to the house.

Telling people they need a CN23, when it is quite clear it requires a CN22

DHL handed over a parcel from Australia to An Post according to another thread, and An Post sent that back too. I'd say DHL are impressed.

rf4c · 16-09-2021 9:29pm

Previous poster said tariff code system is not new and he's quite right.

The difference is the old system operated in such a way that correctly documented parcels came through.

Incorrect ones were handled by the recipient. That's the biggest flaw - the recipient has no control in correcting mistakes.

Basically, an Post / Customs would stop the package and contact you (which is even easier these days with email).

You'd be given a couple of days to get the correct information from the sender (which is even easier these days with email).

The information would be submitted and the parcel released. If the information was incorrect and/or you took too long there was

a daily store charge to incentivise you to get the finger out. After a certain period (can't remember how long but a week to two weeks)

the parcel would be returned. A bit more civilised I think, as easy to implement today and a revenue earner from fleecing the slow sods!

andrewfaulk · 16-09-2021 11:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901458#Comment_117901458

No longer viable..

The surge in e-commerce, change to VAT rules and BREXIT have all combined to send an Posts parcel volumes needing clearance through the roof in the space of 2 years

The days of manually processing shipments is gone and it’s not coming back..

Sparkling Gamorreans · 16-09-2021 11:38pm

For those defending the actions of An Post citing infrastructural and resourcing issues or stating that the incumbency is on the external parties and An Post do their bit by way of notifications on their website, we're living in an era of ESG. There is an increasing focus and emphasis on doing business in an environmental and socially conscious fashion. The net result of enacting what An Post deems to be the requirements in this inflexible fashion is environmentally damaging and is clearly causing distress to people. It's a state owned company, a vital cog in the infrastructure of this country and plays a not insignificant role in people's day to day lives. Defending this is a very weird hill to die on. All that needs to be done is to ease up on the parcel returns until a workable solution can be established.

notahappycamper · 17-09-2021 12:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899383#Comment_117899383

Looks like it was sent back. 2 weeks after the last entry like yours mine was tracked back to sender. Email the echargequery mailbox at An Post with the tracking no. to confirm.

tvc15 · 17-09-2021 7:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901971#Comment_117901971

Easing up on restrictions is something you should contact revenue about then, I'm pretty sure An Post gets paid only when they deliver and not returning packages. Why would they bother implementing such hardline customs rules in order to reduce their revenue?

Return items that have been paid for for is indefensible of course, I'm only questioning the non-compliant stuff

17-09-2021 9:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894574#Comment_117894574

And the final twist in my tale!

Our Japan Post small packet was delivered this morning. It arrived in Dublin on 18 August, so one day short of a month.

No request for VAT charge or An Post admin charge (yet). The Japan Post generated CN22 on the packet does have a space for a taric code and country of origin, but it was not completed. (Item worth less than €30).

Now we have to go back to the seller and tell them the packet has arrived after telling them (on the basis of information given by An Post) that it had already been returned and to expect to have to re-ship.

We're very glad it has arrived, but the upset and sheer frustration of dealing with An Post over the last three weeks has been a nightmare. My daughter (whose packet this is) has been emailing and tweeting daily and called them out furiously over the last two or three days when they were caught out on various lies they told us along the way (with screenshots proving this, including one msg that said the item had been returned via London on 31 August). I don't know if that could have had something to do with the packet being found and processed, but maybe, given by the fact that 30 minutes after it was delivered, my daughter got a DM on Twitter from an An Post representative asking her to confirm the packet had been delivered.

Any future purchases we make from Japan will be shipped via Fedex - at least until we know this situation with An Post is sorted out, and maybe even after!

But please tell your friends and family what is going on. I will continue to follow the thread, and I will be advising anyone I know not to depend on An Post especially if planning on ordering items for Christmas.

SourSessions · 17-09-2021 9:39am

I just got 'Customs clearance have identified a problem with the customs declaration accompanying your item. We are working with the retailer to fix the issue.' for the first time

andrewfaulk · 17-09-2021 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901971#Comment_117901971

Where do you propose they store all these parcels that are awaiting the correct information? And how do they clear the backlog if they have to manually process the ones with the incorrect information?

And finally, if An Post give in and clear the packages, then they will end up doing it for evermore and the overseas postal agencies won't get their act together and implement the changes needed to ensure all packages with the correct EDI information..

Better to have a little bit of pain now, than have a postal service that functions poorly

lucast2007us · 17-09-2021 10:44am

I am done with this joke of a company.

I received a email to pay the vat on a item from outside the EU.

Fair enough so paid it and got confirmation it was paid.

Woke up this morning to find that it is being sent back to sender.

So they take my money and don't do their jobs.

Pathetic.

smokingman · 17-09-2021 10:56am

Anyone have a download link to the right cn22 form for US deliveries into Ireland?

notahappycamper · 17-09-2021 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902609#Comment_117902609

Interesting. By email from An Post or from whom?

notahappycamper · 17-09-2021 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902922#Comment_117902922

Was that from an item sent via. the USPS?

Flaccus · 17-09-2021 11:13am

A parcel of mine has now been sorted 5 times. Last one got returned after I paid the import VAT. A disgraceful service.

Sparkling Gamorreans · 17-09-2021 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902676#Comment_117902676

I don't propose to have all the solutions but this is clearly a matter of public concern and there needs to be more open communication and discourse on this matter and some political scrutiny. What we have is summary rejection of parcels with no proper root cause in each case meaning future remedial actions can't be taken to avoid a repeat. This appears to be aligned with a series of erroneous judgements in returning correct parcels with no apparent root cause analysis being performed by An Post to prevent repeats. The information and communications by An Post are sparse, inadequate and unhelpful. If there are logistical and resourcing issues let's discuss it. We're playing a game of snakes and ladders with these parcels at the minute. Go back and try again. We're also ignoring the climate impact. As cnoc bui stated, what is the point being carbon taxed on one hand while An Post returns a yet to be established quantity of packages back across the world every day? An Post's raison d'etre is to perform its logistical function for Irish society rather than generate a profit. Sure, it should endeavour to break even or not operate at a loss but it's not fulfilling its purpose if mail is not getting delivered to its recipients. Again, I think it's an odd position to want to stand over that we proceed to edify global partners with poorly explained rejections.

Again, I'd state, I don't claim there's easy solutions or there aren't enormous difficulties at this juncture but An Post, Revenue and the relevant Ministers/Departments should be coming together to raise and discuss the difficulties being faced and produce solutions both interim and long term.

Sparkling Gamorreans · 17-09-2021 11:33am

I should add that all businesses should be performing horizon scanning for upcoming regulatory and legal changes which may impact its the requirements it will have to meet and its business model. Was it genuinely unforeseen that this exact scenario would unfurl? Was this adequately discussed between all stakeholders including the Department for Communications? Was it always known the public were going to experience this kind of disruption and inconvenience and a calculated decision was taken that people would just have to take the hit?

lucast2007us · 17-09-2021 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903008#Comment_117903008

Hi no it was China post

Exclamation Marc · 17-09-2021 12:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903103#Comment_117903103

It's ludicrous the carbon footprint this must be causing. I've have multiple packages returned to bewildered sellers across the globe. As an example of the flip a coin logic of it all, my fiancee and I both ordered a few bottles of prosecco from the UK in different orders (to avail of a discount code). Mine was initially returned to Heathrow before suddenly being returned to Ireland and delivered whilst hers made FIVE journeys back and forth across the channel with two returns to the seller who was unable to ascertain why they kept being rejected. Total nonsense. And god help anyone trying to get a hold of someone to ask about it.

The excuse we've gotten a few times has been that the customs declaration was submitted electronically and therefore cannot be amended. Which is total nonsense. Of course it can be amended but whoever is in charge hasn't enabled that functionality which would resolve a lot of unnecessary cargo trips.

It's become infuriating the lottery that international deliveries has become, particularly for a developed country.

whiterebel · 17-09-2021 12:23pm

You can't ship alcohol via postal service would be a start. If it makes it in it'll probably be confiscated by customs. You can only bring it in as an approved importer or on your person. Also, a lot of couriers/postal services won't ship liquids.

Exclamation Marc · 17-09-2021 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903394#Comment_117903394

I've had five deliveries in the last year of the same product and another large alcohol order from elsewhere so whilst I don't disbelieve you (as I can't argue facts), I've no idea how most got through and some didn't (as the deliveries were fairly obvious).

Point stands though that its been a lottery system across the board for everything else I've ordered. And communications have been dog-shít from AnPost.

deezell · 17-09-2021 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903155#Comment_117903155

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903187#Comment_117903187

This is probably the most unsavoury element of these new arrangements. Previously if a packet was stopped and VAT assessed, you paid at the point of collection, your local post office. Like a Mexican standoff, you with the VAT and fee in one hand, the Post Mistress with your parcel in hers. No parcel, no pay. Now it appears you can pay this VAT, unawares that there's another issue in the Queue which is going to get your parcel sent back anyway. I don't think I'd hand over the VAT unless I could have a post dated payment. I'd certainly reverse a credit card one.

Patser · 17-09-2021 12:40pm

Ok, I think I've fallen foul of all this.

Was waiting in something from Ebay UK - a tracksuit top - and Ebay now arranges postage, VAT, Duty etc.

Just checked An Post tracking there after seeing this thread and it says - 2nd Spetember received Dublin Mail Centre. Then 10th We could not deliver your post. We wil try return it to sender. Athlone Mail Centre

So that's pretty much customs I'd guess? So now what, wait for seller to get in touch and see what went wrong?

OU812 · 17-09-2021 1:05pm

This happened to me today. The item was due a couplenn no of weeks ago and they’d already refunded me so no issues there.

it’s concerning though that the reason given was “refused” when it never arrived with no attempt at delivery (small envelope sized item).

andrewfaulk · 17-09-2021 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903103#Comment_117903103

How do you know AN post didn't communicate the required information to their customers(overseas Postal operators) and that the overseas operators ignored them and sent forward packages with the wrong details anyway..

The carbon foot print of sending small packages/parcels and other volumetric cargo back to origin is neglible as it makes space of belly cargo space that would likely otherwise be empty anyway..

The solution, and what people in this thread should be pushing for is to "swim with the tide" and work with what An Post are trying to achieve rather than just complaining or wasting their time.. The more people push back on overseas sellers and highlight to them that the non-delivery is in fact their issue and that they need to follow up/put pressure on the local postal carriers to fix the issue, the quicker it gets resolved.. Complaining to An Post customer service or paying sellers to re-post something that they never delivered in the first place will achieve nothing.. Political pressure is unlikely to either, as I would imagine An Post have a solid business case for how they are handling this one

Patser · 17-09-2021 1:11pm

An Post really are just a law onto themselves - no reasoning needed, just send it back, quickest way for us to process everything. Refuse it and send it back. No comeback beyond copy paste answer. No complaint process.

andrewfaulk · 17-09-2021 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903155#Comment_117903155

Yes most likely.. but the alternative is a broken Postal system that will be over whelmed with parcels missing information.. That or hiring large numbers of staff to deal with the admin nightmare, which would not be viable and certainly not for €3.50 a pop

deezell · 17-09-2021 1:22pm

It was viable at €10 a pop. They'd email you for the online invoice to correctly determine what you paid (ignoring the fractional value stated on the customs label), then bill you for 23% of this plus €10, payable on collar the counter. On moderately priced items it was reasonable value on certain goods. A €100 item that was retailing at twice that would cost you €133.

Sparkling Gamorreans · 17-09-2021 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903634#Comment_117903634

This is the point. We don't know what's happened here. The communications from An Post are laconic and uninsightful. If we are expected to be the agents of change then arm us accordingly with clear expectations as to what we should be doing and the absolute basic baby steps to be able to articulate to merchants what they need to be doing in full knowledge that there will be significant language barriers. An Post could hold their hands up, acknowledge the difficulty, express empathy, ask us to row in with them if this is what they want. This is a matter of public interest as opposed to seeking business sensitive knowledge from a private company in a competitive sector. This needs to be discussed more openly.

Sparkling Gamorreans · 17-09-2021 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903645#Comment_117903645

Apologies, I forgot to address your point on carbon footprint. On the matter of this cargo simply taking up otherwise empty space, does additional weight no increase the rate of fuel consumption? I thought we're looked at ways to reduce this small cumulative impacts which could be avoided rather than making excuses in all instances for the little things that add up.

andrewfaulk · 17-09-2021 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903768#Comment_117903768

The average parcel is about 1kg or 1.5kg, so essentially meaningless in any fuel burn calculation for a modern aircraft.. The aircraft is still going to fly whether and Post have 100kgs or 1000kgs of mail to load on board.. You could just as equally argue brining a packed lunch onboard instead of waiting till you arrive to eat is bad for the environment..

So in this discussion the carbon footprint isn't really a factor..

An Post returning packages from outside the EU-See 1st post

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Outgoing Mail