Is it unethical to have more than 2 children?

So what? This is a different issue entirely to the claim that "2 is the replacement rate" which is a false claim and a poor basis for the ethical statements you used it to spring board to.

Further - China have a 2 child policy after for a long time having a 1 child policy. A policy which left them with an ageing population and they have been forced to change their policy now to address that failure. It was also a policy that was considered unethical as it often left a single only child in the position of having to support 2 ageing parents and 4 grand parents. It also created a lot of power disparity between men and women.

And finally in May of 2018 it was announced that they are considering scrapping the 2 child policy and in May of this year they announced a move to a 3 child policy to address their falling birth rate problems.

So actually your point here turns out to be A) irrelevant B) Out of date and C) mentioning China here goes against your own position from the OP as it shows what happens when you meddle and try to engage in population eugenics and control, and the ethics and morality associated with it. Shooting yourself three times in the foot has to be a record :)

It’s quite easy to feel angry regarding the climate crisis and rightly so but I find the best way to focus that positively is by thinking what power do I have And accepting that I have no power over certain things i.e. overpopulation in England and the Netherlands

I do have power over

1. Who I vote for

2. My consumer choices

3. My community choices

4. What can I produce myself

5. My interactions with others / what people will happily listen to

6. Where I donate money

Also I constantly remind myself that I’m not perfect and I need to live and get on with other people.

i try to keep it local as I work and live locally but I do buy organic staples online that gets delivered mostly dry goods and meat. I grow my own veg and have my own hens and meat chickens. I buy organic whole grain for them grown in Kilkenny which I get delivered. I buy organic milk, wine, cheese (organic not available) and fish locally. I make my own soap that i use for washing. I try to use the car as little as possible. I buy few clothes /shoes. I have solar panels to heat the water. I have oil fired central heating but I generally just use the stove in which I burn timber. I stopped using firelighters years ago and use newspaper and kindling sometimes with oil or candlewax if its difficult to start. I like to eat out but not often and try to choose more sustainable restaurants /cafés when I do. I don’t fly anymore but I do take the ferry. I’m active in a local club and i donate money to local festivals. I try to promote and support positive actions at work and among friends.

You have to give yourself and others a break too. Some people have a lot to deal with. Some people don’t care and won’t care.

I find if I make a list of all the stuff you do currently and a few goals to achieve, realise what I lack and maybe why it helps.

I choose not to be on social media (apart from boards) as I find it too shouty, judgemental maybe sensationalist. I personally find it too distracting and it puts me in bad form as I don’t think people are considerate, understanding or even listen. I do understand that I therefore lack a voice. That is something I lack but it is a choice I have made.

Maybe I’m totally off topic 🤔

@Wilmol "Is immigration really responsible for 5 million increase of population in France in 7 years?"

Partially yes. But you also need to look into some other statistical factors such as "population momentum". Such things explain how a population continues to increase even as their fertility rate is on the decline.

Further you need to factor in other things like life expectancy. If more people are living longer this will affect population statistics over time even if the production of new humans declines. Fertility rate can not be considered in isolation from death rates.

So again I think it much to simplistic to ethically judge people for crossing over a replacement rate. Especially if it is a false replacement rate you have simply invented on your own that differs from the actual rate.

There would be better things to turn your ethical eye to. Such as religions which preach the sinfulness of contraceptives. Rather than admonish people for having children - perhaps admonish those who preach against the tools which stop people who do not actually want children from actually having them.

It would be better to focus ethics on anything which causes people to have children they do not want - rather than moral high horsing people who have children they actually do want.

@Wilmol

No one "needs" any children. So once again I think you are targetting an argument against one group of people that equally applies to all people. Which is the same error I think you made earlier in the thread too. No one needs 1 2 or 3 children just as much as no one needs 4. So why single out someone with 4 to make that point at? It makes no sense.

If it makes you feel any better however I am not a "usual" case in that I am the M in an MFF relationship. As such we are three parents not two. And our target of 4 children which we have always had was based on them having 2 each. This was always our plan since the beginning. So my case is moderately different to any couple who has 4 children. Though only moderately. But we are more analagous to two 2 children families than one 4 child family.

But as I said before the "argument from everyone" fallacy is not useful here. If your point is based on "Well if everyone does it....." then it is not a point at all. Because everyone is not going to have 1. Or 2. Or 3. Or 4. Some will have 0. Some will have 4. Very very few are going to have 10 or 20. The rhetorical "argument from the extreme" is just red herring territory.