Speeding is endemic in this country, what can be done about it?

blackvalley · 25-06-2021 04:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow, I've come across some pretty dumb arguments on my time reading Internet forums, but this has to be up there amongst the top. I hope you are taking the piss and not seriously arguing that a Ferrari somehow gives the driver enhanced reflexes and the ability to dodge other traffic.

At the end of the day it's simple physics, the Fiesta travelling at 50 km an hour will have less kinetic energy than a car, even a lightweight one travelling at twice the speed.

Yea but can you imagine when you are in hospital after being run down and the consultant is doing his rounds you will be able to tell him " I was hit by a car doctor , luckily it was a Ferrari instead of a Fiesta or I might never walk again " :rolleyes:

liamog · 25-06-2021 04:17PM

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, but if you were travelling at 50km, you might miss the car completely.

You've missed my point anyway. Speed is always a factor. Whether it's a primary factor or not is irrelevant. It is always a core component, but people don't think about it that way. Like you say, objects at rest do not collide, therefore once you start moving the vehicle, you create the potential for a collision, and you should be on the lookout for that, constantly.

The engineering action you would take to prevent the collision should not be reduce the speed limit to 45km/h it should be to implement red light enforcement cameras to discourage the running of red lights.

Paddigol · 25-06-2021 04:30PM

Paddigol wrote: »

That's gas. Cos I drive Ashford to Greystones on that route every weekday and do the exact same thing (god bless cruise control). Except on that short (20k) stretch I have at least 20 cars overtake me each way. And that's even when I throw an extra kmph or two onto the cruise control setting. I must do an exact count this evening and report back.

The real problem with speeding is on our secondary/ 'country' roads where the likelihood of encountering walkers/ runners/ cyclists/ horses is much higher and the margins for error much smaller.

I picked a bad day to check - only the 6 overtook me yesterday on the way home, but that was at 8pm. I'm usually an hour earlier when there's a bit more traffic on the road. Worse in the mornings too, but this morning I had a meeting in the opposite direction so missed that journey too. Ah well, there's always next week!

Duckjob · 25-06-2021 04:39PM

liamog wrote: »

The only change I'd require on non motorway/high quality dual carriageway is to require that speed limit changes were tied to engineering changes in the road.
Slapping a new sign with a lower number does not increase safety and has been shown to be ignored by the majority of people. The cycle lanes installed in Hartstown have done more to reduce vehicle speeds than the ramps ever did, the fixed kerb protected lanes have narrowed the roadway in a manner that has very effectively slowed down vehicles.

Yeah it's true. How roads "look" hugely influences how drivers drive down that road, without the driver even realising it.

There's a local rural road near me, 80kph and 60kph limits, where drivers drive like they are in Mad Max. When I look at the road I can see why- everything about its design screams out that cars and only cars should be there. No cyclepath, not even a footpath, just a road and grass verges.

The same road in NL or one of the Nordic countries would have footpath and cycle path running parallel, crossing areas, narrow raised twisty sections with rumbly surfaces, median strips in the middle to prevent dangerous overtakes, everything needed to send a clear message to drivers - "there's people about, you need to take it easy".

Here, we give people big wide multi-lane roads and then slap speed limits on them and expect them to work. A well-designed road should virtually self-enforce the desired speed limit.

AndrewJRenko · 25-06-2021 04:42PM

NoviGlitzko wrote: »

Getting from A to B quicker.

Really? How much time on the road do you spend in free flowing traffic? Is the speed limit a significant factor in journey duration? How much time would be saved and how would that benefit society?

iColdFusion · 25-06-2021 04:47PM

Sounds like the real solution would be a network of high speed affordable electric trains connecting all the major cities and their commuter belt towns thus reducing our reliance on cars significantly, problem solved! :pac:

Oh no wait a second that would actually cost money, require planning and reduce the cha-ching dolla bills income the government hoovers out of the pockets of Irish motorists every year.
God forbid a government might do something now that takes more than 3 years to deliver and risk the next government taking credit for it :rolleyes:

liamog · 25-06-2021 06:35PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Really? How much time on the road do you spend in free flowing traffic? Is the speed limit a significant factor in journey duration? How much time would be saved and how would that benefit society?

Just like the public transport provision in this country you need to look beyond travel for the short peak period. It's extremely rare for me to be on a road that isn't running at the speed limit. Maybe if you change you behaviour to stop adding to congestion you'll see that roads are also used outside of peak periods.

AndrewJRenko · 25-06-2021 11:29PM

iColdFusion wrote: »

Oh no wait a second that would actually cost money, require planning and reduce the cha-ching dolla bills income the government hoovers out of the pockets of Irish motorists every year.

Actually, is the motorists doing the hoovering, with many of the costs of motoring being paid by society at large;
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/24/motorists-should-pay-full-costs-of-road-pollution-deaths-and-damage-says-eu-transport-commissioner/?sh=2de377222c0b

liamog wrote: »

Just like the public transport provision in this country you need to look beyond travel for the short peak period. It's extremely rare for me to be on a road that isn't running at the speed limit. Maybe if you change you behaviour to stop adding to congestion you'll see that roads are also used outside of peak periods.

So do we design our roads around your personal travel habits, or around the travel habits of the majority? It's called 'rush hour' for a reason.

I don't actually know the answer to the question I'm posing - what difference would the proposed increase in speed limits make to most journeys, or to the average journeys?

liamog · 26-06-2021 02:29AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So do we design our roads around your personal travel habits, or around the travel habits of the majority? It's called 'rush hour' for a reason.

I don't actually know the answer to the question I'm posing - what difference would the proposed increase in speed limits make to most journeys, or to the average journeys?

We should design transportation systems around everyones needs not just those who need to be in an office at 9am. The biggest failing in Irish transportation is how its so fucussed on only delivering people within a very small period of the day.

Your response to a request to increase some speed limits in a thread started with assertion that speeding is endemic, is that you can't increase the speed limit because congestion is so bad traffic doesn't reach the current speed limit.

Motorways are not congested for 100% of the day, increasing the limit at some times and reducing it at others is a very effective means of managing flow.

Flinty997 · 27-06-2021 01:15AM

This is the lockdown and WFH was a game changer.

But its mostly going back to 9~5 and all the same problems. Stupid.

Wilmol · 27-06-2021 09:40AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

motorways are pretty much moot in this debate anyway? it's already been established that the higher the limit, the less violation of the limit anyway; and i don't recall seeing many speed checks at all on motorways.

but anyway, i said it before, the 'speed is not a factor in most crashes' line strikes me as impossibly dumb. yes, you can argue that excess speed was not the ultimate cause for a crash, but you can be damn sure that it plays a large role in how avoidable crashes are, and how severe they are. so it's a massive factor, even when it's not a cause.

You don't recall? Check the Garda Twitter thread. Their new favorite camping spot is entrances to motorways because it's the road where it's the easiest to break the limit.

magicbastarder · 27-06-2021 09:57AM

i don't think i've ever seen a speed check on the M50. though they could be doing with one on the off ramp at the ballymun exit, people regularly come off there forgetting they have to merge and have to slam on.

27-06-2021 10:42AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i think limits are just fine, by raising them, we ll just raise our speeds

Fantastic analysis

AndrewJRenko · 27-06-2021 01:34PM

liamog wrote: »

We should design transportation systems around everyones needs not just those who need to be in an office at 9am. The biggest failing in Irish transportation is how its so fucussed on only delivering people within a very small period of the day.

Your response to a request to increase some speed limits in a thread started with assertion that speeding is endemic, is that you can't increase the speed limit because congestion is so bad traffic doesn't reach the current speed limit.

Motorways are not congested for 100% of the day, increasing the limit at some times and reducing it at others is a very effective means of managing flow.

We should indeed design around everyone's needs.

It's not me asserting that speeding is endemic. Look at the RSA Speed Survey - 98% of drivers speeding on urban roads and large percentages of drivers speeding on all categories of roads.

So again, what benefit would arise from the proposed increases?

liamog · 27-06-2021 01:37PM

Ok so you now accept that if people are capable of speeding on a road then the argument that the road is congested and can't reach that speed is invalid.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So again, what
benefit would arise from the proposed increases?

Again why is 120km/h the magic number?

AndrewJRenko · 27-06-2021 01:40PM

liamog wrote: »

Ok so you now accept that if people are capable of speeding on a road then the argument that the road is congested and can't reach that speed is invalid.

Again why is 120km/h the magic number?

We are where we are.

liamog · 27-06-2021 02:18PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We are where we are.

Ok, so you have no reasons that a 120km/h speed limit should be applied to a motorway. Should be straightforward to lift it then.

AndrewJRenko · 27-06-2021 02:53PM

liamog wrote: »

Ok, so you have no reasons that a 120km/h speed limit should be applied to a motorway. Should be straightforward to lift it then.

By the same logic, it should be straightforward to lower it.

Both are fairly dumb logic. I'm not the owner of speed limits.

liamog · 27-06-2021 03:07PM

I've made assertions that motorway speed limits are based on engineering principles and should be re evaluated when the data used in the underlying principles is changed.

You seem to believe it is what it is because it exists.

Chris_5339762 · 27-06-2021 05:30PM

The ones that do annoy me are roadworks.

Around the Dunkettle roadworks, the limits are 80 and 60. I drive at roughly those speeds. No-one, and I mean almost no-one else does.

Yes they are stupid speeds, but now I'm the hazard because I'm going half the speed of everyone else. Including lorries, buses, everything. Its honestly dangerous. However, on the one day that I do go faster you can guarantee the speed van will be somewhere.

nj27 · 27-06-2021 05:35PM

I suppose there will always be speeding as long as there's a huge thrill in speed. I'm old enough to know better but there is still a huge temptation to tear around the streets at breakneck speeds, especially if you enjoy cars and have a lot of more bhp than would ever be required. I'd absolutely never speed though.

liamog · 27-06-2021 05:40PM

nj27 wrote: »

I suppose there will always be speeding as long as there's a huge thrill in speed. I'm old enough to know better but there is still a huge temptation to tear around the streets at breakneck speeds, especially if you enjoy cars and have a lot of more bhp than would ever be required. I'd absolutely never speed though.

Most of the speeding I see is not at the travelling quickly to have fun speed, its at the road is designed as a 60km/h road but has now been lowered to 50km/h with no updates to the road layout.

AndrewJRenko · 27-06-2021 07:28PM

liamog wrote: »

I've made assertions that motorway speed limits are based on engineering principles and should be re evaluated when the data used in the underlying principles is changed.

You seem to believe it is what it is because it exists.

There's a lot more than engineering principles involved in setting speed limits.

nj27 wrote: »

I suppose there will always be speeding as long as there's a huge thrill in speed. I'm old enough to know better but there is still a huge temptation to tear around the streets at breakneck speeds, especially if you enjoy cars and have a lot of more bhp than would ever be required. I'd absolutely never speed though.

Great argument for speed limiters on cars.

GerardKeating · 27-06-2021 09:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot of speed limits are very low on some roads. Often, these are the roads the speed vans are placed.

And on some roads, the limit is too high, most "L" roads in rural areas have an 80km speed limit and some of them, doing more than 50km is reckless.

liamog · 27-06-2021 11:28PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There's a lot more than engineering principles involved in setting speed limits.

Can you elaborate?

28-06-2021 08:40AM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Examples?
Are you also considering other road users when deciding that the limits are very low?

I can give an example. The condell road in Limerick. Big wide road and only 50kmph. A boreen up the road from me is 80kmph ffs...

Uncle Pierre · 28-06-2021 09:50AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Look at the RSA Speed Survey - 98% of drivers speeding on urban roads and large percentages of drivers speeding on all categories of roads.

And there's an example of what I was talking about several pages ago now, of the dangers of relying on just one statistic from one source to back up an argument, and also perfectly illustrating how statistics can be misrepresented.

I've often seen this claim that "98% of drivers speed on urban roads" and presume it comes from the RSA table that was posted back in post #49.

However, the figure of 98% there applies only to national urban roads with a 30 km/h limit. So while it would be accurate to say that "statistics show that 98% of drivers speed on certain urban roads", it's wholly incorrect to make a blanket statement that "98% of driver speed on urban roads", even if you take those statistics as absolute Gospel.

Do the maths there for all types of urban roads, and you'll find that they show that overall, the proportion of drivers speeding on urban roads was 65%. Still a significant figure, but far short of 98%.

And yes, I am a bit of a numbers nerd.

Macy0161 · 28-06-2021 10:05AM

Talk of increasing speed limits is nuts. It is actually quite scary at times walking the rural roads where I live, and even sometimes within the village limits where there appears to be zero regard for the limits. This is massively exacerbated by many drivers impatience where slowing down, and passing a pedestrian safely is not something to be done, as it may cost a few extra seconds if there's on-coming cars.

Things won't change without enforcement, but there's no political will for it, and the RSA aren't really pushing it either. Much more widespread average speed cameras is really the only solution, until the tech is available.

AndrewJRenko · 28-06-2021 12:38PM

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

And there's an example of what I was talking about several pages ago now, of the dangers of relying on just one statistic from one source to back up an argument, and also perfectly illustrating how statistics can be misrepresented.

I've often seen this claim that "98% of drivers speed on urban roads" and presume it comes from the RSA table that was posted back in post #49.

However, the figure of 98% there applies only to national urban roads with a 30 km/h limit. So while it would be accurate to say that "statistics show that 98% of drivers speed on certain urban roads", it's wholly incorrect to make a blanket statement that "98% of driver speed on urban roads", even if you take those statistics as absolute Gospel.

Do the maths there for all types of urban roads, and you'll find that they show that overall, the proportion of drivers speeding on urban roads was 65%. Still a significant figure, but far short of 98%.

And yes, I am a bit of a numbers nerd.

You did notice the bit of my statement that you didn't highlight in bold?

liamog · 28-06-2021 12:42PM

Macy0161 wrote: »

Talk of increasing speed limits is nuts. It is actually quite scary at times walking the rural roads where I live, and even sometimes within the village limits where there appears to be zero regard for the limits. This is massively exacerbated by many drivers impatience where slowing down, and passing a pedestrian safely is not something to be done, as it may cost a few extra seconds if there's on-coming cars.

The only place I think speed limits need a review is on motorways and high quality dual carriageways.

Macy0161 wrote: »

Things won't change without enforcement, but there's no political will for it, and the RSA aren't really pushing it either. Much more widespread average speed cameras is really the only solution, until the tech is available.

Our approach to enforcement is wrong in this country, the punishments are too high and seldom enforced. It's better to give people an annoying ticket every week than it is to give a punitive ticket once every 5 years. The level of enforcement for all traffic offenses is very low, but with penalty points included (and the affect on insurance premiums) the punishment is too high. This leads to a general desire to not enforce the rules too strictly. People's behaviour would change very quickly if they every time they sped through the village they had to go and pay a €10 fine at their local motor tax office.

Speeding is endemic in this country, what can be done about it?

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