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Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

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Comments

  • #2432
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Do you agree the Nuns were villains?

    Some were.

    Do you agree that the families must shoulder some of the blame for those unfortunate girls who had no choice but enter the mother and baby homes?


  • #2433
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Commenting on the contents of the report isn’t deflection. It’s pointing out facts.

    Except the report is about the operation of the Mother and Baby homes and you continually bring up irrelevant 'facts' with no links.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2434
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Some were.
    Do you agree the Nun's employer, the RCC, should be liable for their behavior?

    Do you agree that the families must shoulder some of the blame for those unfortunate girls who had no choice but enter the mother and baby homes?

    Of course, plenty of familial blame to go around. Liability, however, only applies to those profiting from the abuse of the women in question.


  • #2435
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Some were.

    Do you agree that the families must shoulder some of the blame for those unfortunate girls who had no choice but enter the mother and baby homes?

    Blame for what? That a society so heavily influenced by the morally bankrupt RCC felt the need to have these homes in the first place, doesn't take away from the atrocities committed in them. The actions of the church and religious institutions are theirs to shoulder and theirs alone.
    Your attempts to deflect won't change that.


  • #2436
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    Except the report is about the operation of the Mother and Baby homes and you continually bring up irrelevant 'facts' with no links.

    Here’s a link for you. Read it and weep. https://assets.gov.ie/118671/0df04013-bfc5-4241-b01e-773504253793.pdf

    If the families accepted their responsibility and cared for their daughters, there would have been no need for mother and baby homes.

    The thought of those same caring families paying for someone else to do their, the parents, job is shameful.


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  • #2437
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 939 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Commenting on the contents of the report isn’t deflection. It’s pointing out facts.

    You are constantly deflecting from the religious orders and the mother and baby homes to blame the families and all of society for the wrongs that were committed in these homes


  • #2438
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Badly fukt wrote: »
    You are constantly deflecting from the religious orders and the mother and baby homes to blame the families and all of society for the wrongs that were committed in these homes

    Simply pointing out that wrongs which took place before the girls entered the mother and baby homes isn’t deflection. It’s apportioning blame correctly. Two wrongs do not make a right.


  • #2439
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 939 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Simply pointing out that wrongs which took place before the girls entered the mother and baby homes isn’t deflection. It’s apportioning blame correctly. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    So in your eyes they were all rapes, incest and dirty women having sex outside wedlock. Your agenda is obvious.


  • #2440
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Simply pointing out that wrongs which took place before the girls entered the mother and baby homes isn’t deflection. It’s apportioning blame correctly. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    What blame are you apportioning?


  • #2441
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Badly fukt wrote: »
    So in your eyes they were all rapes, incest and dirty women having sex outside wedlock. Your agenda is obvious.

    Where did you get that from?

    Girls got pregnant. Some from rape. Some from incest. Some from what they thought were loving relationships. Some very young girls. Many, many of then totally innocent about the consequences of sex.
    Instead of caring for them and their babies, families dropped them off at mother and baby homes for someone else to take care of what the families considered to be the problem. Sometimes even paying the nuns for the pleasure!
    Some pregnant girls went to these homes voluntarily, giving their babies up for adoption, in the wish that by doing so that their babies would have a better life.

    Yet some can only see that the nuns, RCC, etc were pure evil.

    Remember that there are two sides to every story. Try looking at both.

    Where you see the RCC, nuns, society as being to blame, I hold the families equally responsible.


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  • #2442
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 939 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Where did you get that from?

    Girls got pregnant. Some from rape. Some from incest. Some from what they thought were loving relationships. Some very young girls. Many, many of then totally innocent about the consequences of sex.
    Instead of caring for them and their babies, families dropped them off at mother and baby homes for someone else to take care of what the families considered to be the problem. Sometimes even paying the nuns for the pleasure!
    Some pregnant girls went to these homes voluntarily, giving their babies up for adoption, in the wish that by doing so that their babies would have a better life.

    Yet some can only see that the nuns, RCC, etc were pure evil.

    Remember that there are two sides to every story. Try looking at both.

    Where you see the RCC, nuns, society as being to blame, I hold the families equally responsible.

    A society who's morals were dictated to by the RCC. A government who were under the control of the RCC to uphold these morals. Society didn't create this!

    The Constitution is pretty much a prayer book. The Dail and council meetings start with a prayer. Religious doctrination happens in our schools. The religious orders ran out hospitals.


  • #2443
    cnocbui
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,837 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    In those times, the societal mores that drove such awful behaviour by families were almost entirely inculcated by the CC and it's awful attitude to sex and women. And this was deliberate, as having bad outcomes for girls and women who didn't toe the line on Catholic moarality, was really a boon.


  • #2444
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Simply pointing out that wrongs which took place before the girls entered the mother and baby homes isn’t deflection. It’s apportioning blame correctly. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    Do you understand that the Mother and Baby Home commission primarily focused on what happened in the Mother and Baby homes themselves? For example where do you put the blame for the exceptional mortality rates within the homes?

    The report called the infant mortality rates the most "disquieting feature of these institutions." Bessborough had mortality rates up to 75% in certain years most probably from willful neglect.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2445
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-accused-of-disrespect-1.4591094

    Good read with input from some of the most prominent activists.
    Mari Steed urged the Government to repudiate the report formally and for a body such as the United Nations to investigate or use evidence collected by the commission to draft “a better evidentiary document”.
    Historian Catherine Corless, whose research revealed the deaths of children at the mother and baby home in Tuam, Co Galway, questioned why commission member Prof Mary Daly could not appear at the committee when she spoke about the report at an Oxford University event just over a week ago.

    “Why can’t she say the same things in front of the Oireachtas – what’s the difference?” she asked.
    NUI Galway human rights lecturer Dr Maeve O’Rourke said the Government should insist on a notice being affixed to the report stating that it had not accepted the commission’s findings in light of concerns around the research methods followed by the commission.

    “It is a very good example of how not to investigate massive human-rights violations,” she said.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2446
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Badly fukt wrote: »
    A society who's morals were dictated to by the RCC. A government who were under the control of the RCC to uphold these morals. Society didn't create this!

    The Constitution is pretty much a prayer book. The Dail and council meetings start with a prayer. Religious doctrination happens in our schools. The religious orders ran out hospitals.

    For some reason this is repeatedly ignored by the apologists when they try to shift blame.


  • #2447
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Where you see the RCC, nuns, society as being to blame, I hold the families equally responsible.

    Equally responsible for what exactly?
    Being in the homes?
    Those women and children being victims of atrocities perpetrated by the church?
    For some reason you don't seem to want to say.


  • #2448
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    uptherebels wrote: »
    Equally responsible for what exactly?
    Being in the homes?
    Those women and children being victims of atrocities perpetrated by the church?
    For some reason you don't seem to want to say.

    Try reading the rest of my post.


  • #2449
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Here you go Mary. This will help with the irrelevant 'facts'.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-relationship-status-on-form-5463882-Jun2021/?utm_source=twitter_short
    'Rape' and 'incest' listed as 'current relationship status' options on Commission form.

    A SURVIVOR OF a mother and baby home has criticised the fact that the ‘box-ticking’ form filled in after she gave evidence to the Commission of Investigation into the institutions lists ‘rape’ and ‘incest’ as options for people’s ‘current relationship status’.

    The woman in question, now aged in her 60s, wanted to keep her child but felt compelled to give them up for adoption in the early 1980s despite repeated attempts to keep them.

    The woman’s daughter, Maura*, told The Journal that the form was filled in months after her mother gave her testimony, is “littered with inaccuracies” and “in no way captures the actual events or my mother’s story or suffering”.

    What were this commission at for 5 years? They appear less and less professional every single day. Put Dr O'Rourke in charge of the review please!

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2450
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mother-and-baby-homes-testimony-may-be-examined-by-independent-expert-1.4591157

    Mother and baby homes testimony may be examined by independent expert.
    Ministers to consider new proposal to examine testimonies ‘through a human rights lens’.
    A source said the Government was conscious that “survivors feel their full experience as they told it is not reflected in the summaries of their transcripts put in the confidential committee chapter and they don’t feel they are fully reflected elsewhere in report too”.

    Therefore proposals are being progressed to appoint an expert to examine the common experiences such as forced adoptions or other experiences within the institutions.

    The independent expert would provide a report with a new analysis reflecting the testimonies and this would sit alongside the commission’s final report which was published in January. It is understood the final proposals will be brought to Cabinet the week after next by the Minister for Children Roderic O’Gorman.

    It comes as the three members of the commission turned down an invitation to appear before an Oireachtas committee. They have been urged by Government to reconsider their decision.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2451
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    ......

    Regarding death rates, demographers typically model all infant mortality before 1800 as 40%. Worth bearing that in mind.
    .....

    The report I read wasnt investigating infant mortality in the 1800's :rolleyes:


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  • #2452
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mother-and-baby-homes-testimony-may-be-examined-by-independent-expert-1.4591157

    Mother and baby homes testimony may be examined by independent expert.
    Ministers to consider new proposal to examine testimonies ‘through a human rights lens’.

    If it's an expert from Ireland, forget it. Bring in someone from outside the country like they did for Savita. Otherwise they are likely to be compromised like this Commission was.


  • #2453
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What comes across loud and clear, is how these poor girls were abused by the very people who should have, firstly educated them and secondly, cared for them. Their families. Yes, wrongs were done in some homes, but the bigger wrong happened in their own homes. The places they should have felt the safest.

    Those girls & women went to the M&B Homes for help.

    Maybe they were abandoned by parents & partners or shunned & ostracized in the deeply religious culture of the time but they needed help not censure, shame & to be permanently separated from their children. We all know that culture was instigated by McQuaide & supported, promoted & encouraged by Devalera as is evidenced by the many civil & legal restrictions imposed on society by those two RCC indoctrinated men. It hasn't gone yet.

    Whatever their reasons for seeking help from the Christian organisations they were led to believe were caring, merciful & a place of refuge, they & their children were clearly not cared for, in fact it was the opposite. There is no point in constantly trying to pass the blame to families & away from the religious who ran those homes because everyone knows the truth.

    Our fellow citizens both mothers & children were treated appallingly. It is shameful to me as an Irish citizen & it is way beyond time for the government to do something to right those wrongs & stop all the excuses & procrastination.


  • #2454
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    Do you understand that the Mother and Baby Home commission primarily focused on what happened in the Mother and Baby homes themselves? For example where do you put the blame for the exceptional mortality rates within the homes?

    The report called the infant mortality rates the most "disquieting feature of these institutions." Bessborough had mortality rates up to 75% in certain years most probably from willful neglect.

    What makes you say this claim? What is the mechanism? I do agree that high mortality in the 1940s in some homes is a scandal and that is the primary scandal, perhaps the only true scandal. Although its not unusual for such homes overseas to have such rates.


  • #2455
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 14,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Its clear that the report of the Commission is deeply flawed, very compromised and essentially a whitewash. It is a f*ck up of the highest order.

    We need international experts on the area to come in and do it properly, without any bias.

    The Catholic Church ruined countless lives in Ireland during their tenure as theocratic leaders of this country to uphold very twisted and sick "moral" values. They oppressed nearly everyone in Irish society in one way or the other. Vile, rotten to the core organisation that cares more about protecting its wealth and status than genuine love and care for those weakest in society.

    The sooner they are expunged completely from Irish society (and the world) the better.


  • #2456
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Try reading the rest of my post.

    Do you think I got to the end of your post without reading the start of it?
    I asked a question on something you are very vague on. You then deflected instead of answering.
    So again what are you holding the families equally responsible for?
    And I do hope you don't deflect again, with your passion for stating the truth and apportioning blame correctly.


  • #2457
    saabsaab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It was sad that at the time when this was happening the few reports that pointed out these abuses were shelved or the person making the report moved after interventions by the Churches.


  • #2458
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40312640.html
    The admission led to widespread criticism of the final report and calls for commission members to appear before an Oireachtas committee to answer questions on its work over the past five years.

    This week Belfast-based legal firm KRW Law asked Minister O’Gorman to set aside the final report to make way for a new independent and human rights compliant investigation with victims and survivors at the centre.

    It pointed out that the terms of reference and the methodology of the Commission’s work drew criticism from EU and international human rights organisations prior to the publication of the final report in January.

    The legal firm said the investigation did not comply with the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), in particular, Article 3, which prohibits torture, inhuman and degrading treatment.

    It has raised its concerns over the investigation with the Irish government and Stormont Executive, as well as to the United Nations Committee against Torture (UNCAT), relevant UN Special Rapporteurs, the EU Parliament Petitions Committee, and the EU Human Rights Commissioner.

    “Now it has become clear that the status of the report is untenable and it must be set aside and quashed by way of a judicial declaration,” Kevin Winters of KRW Law said.

    The government cannot be trusted anymore to do this right. We need the UN or EU more involved.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2459
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://twitter.com/SocDems/status/1404764399701725190

    It's a fair point - there are over 10 high court challenges to the findings of the Mother and Baby home commission report. The minister himself acknowledges that mistakes were made so it will be difficult for the government to defend the incorrect findings.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2460
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A thought provoking article here. Sorry, but it’s behind a paywall so I’ll only post a small section of it. It covers the reports into the Magadelean laundries, the symphysiotomy enquiry and the recent mother and babies enquiry. The enquiries found a lot of those interviewed had acquired false memories. Most notable in the symphysiotomy enquiry where it was found that a number of “victims” didn’t ever have the procedure!

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-quinn-blame-evidence-not-authors-for-mother-and-baby-homes-report-failure-9wbsmfh3b


    “Some survivors of the mother and baby homes are angry that the report of the Murphy Commission also failed to follow the received narrative. However, as Murphy said in her letter to Funchion, just 1 per cent of women who gave birth in the homes since 1960 came forward to tell their stories, and only a small number of those were willing to given sworn testimony.

    In addition, the stories varied. For example, while some of the tiny number of witnesses who remembered life in the Tuam mother and baby home had very bad memories of the place, others recalled it more positively. What was the commission meant to do in the face of such contradiction? It was led by two lawyers and a historian, so it based the final report on verifiable evidence, which is what we should expect from experts with their backgrounds and training.

    If the Oireachtas wanted a different outcome, then it should have put a different kind of expert in charge of the commission and set different terms of reference, ones that included a more strongly therapeutic and subjective element. Then the outcome might have been more in keeping with the popular narrative, but that doesn’t mean it would have been more accurate.”


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  • #2461
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    I posted this Times article here. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117465159&postcount=2711


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