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Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

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    #3152
    timetogo1
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭timetogo1


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    How can the rtb disclose that information to a solicitor on behalf of a buyer. Does the RTB not have to keep gdpr rules?

    The price of a place renting isn't personal information.


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    #3153
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Jmc25 wrote: »
    I haven't proposed any solutions other than suggesting that more housing needs to be built, which few people would disagree with.

    My original point was that there's public support for rent controls and public perception will be an important consideration for the Government in deciding whether to retain or expand rent controls and how to deal with the housing issue in general.

    Building more housing may do nothing if it is left empty. Could you explain the relevance of the number who would disagree with something?
    the majority is not always right and in something like this is often wrong.


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    #3154
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Building more housing may do nothing if it is left empty.

    This. Gov need to get something moving in this regard very quickly.


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    #3155
    Phat Cat
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Phat Cat


    I thought car parking and service charges were part of the rent in most apartment complexes. Evidently not according to this article:

    https://www.dublininquirer.com/2021/06/09/landlords-adding-extra-charges-on-top-of-rents-avoiding-laws-that-restrict-rent-increases


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    #3156
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    timetogo1 wrote: »
    The price of a place renting isn't personal information.

    Of course it is in certain contexts. Why wouldn't it be?


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    #3157
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,690 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    timetogo1 wrote: »
    The price of a place renting isn't personal information.

    Can anyone gain this information though? I asked 5 people yesterday who took over a new property in the last 18 months and only 1 of them was told what the last person was paying, but even then they said they had no way of knowing if it was true.

    So if i go to rent a place how will i know if the rent charged is accurate and in-line with the last tenant?


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    #3158
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    usernamegoes wrote: »
    Of course it is in certain contexts. Why wouldn't it be?

    How does it identify anyone?


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    #3159
    Patsy167
    Registered Users Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭Patsy167


    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1402734293026287620

    "This is significant: Facebook set to allow Irish staff work from other European countries, including UK.

    (Up to now, policy was that ‘remote’ working had to be within Ireland.)"

    "If other big tech firms follow suit at scale, potential effect on Dublin rents etc.

    (Though a lot depends on takeup etc)"


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    #3160
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Patsy167 wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1402734293026287620

    "This is significant: Facebook set to allow Irish staff work from other European countries, including UK.

    (Up to now, policy was that ‘remote’ working had to be within Ireland.)"

    "If other big tech firms follow suit at scale, potential effect on Dublin rents etc.

    (Though a lot depends on takeup etc)"


    It looks to me like they will give you a job in another European country. You will be working for the local company and will no longer be a facebook ireland employee.
    Lots of multinationals doing that already. Dont know why its even news.
    Now if they let you keep your employment conditions and irish salary and pension it would be different and newsworthy.


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    #3161
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭dotsman


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    It looks to me like they will give you a job in another European country. You will be working for the local company and will no longer be a facebook ireland employee.
    Lots of multinationals doing that already. Dont know why its even news.
    Now if they let you keep your employment conditions and irish salary and pension it would be different and newsworthy.

    But a lot of staff are originally from other EU countries. If they were to return home and transfer their roles to their home country, it would have a terrible impact on the local economy (both spending and tax base).

    While people (understandably) want a decrease in rents, it needs to be because supply has increased to meet demand. Whereas, if it is because there is less highly paid people living in Dublin, then that is bad for everyone.


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    #3162
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    It looks to me like they will give you a job in another European country. You will be working for the local company and will no longer be a facebook ireland employee.
    Lots of multinationals doing that already. Dont know why its even news.
    Now if they let you keep your employment conditions and irish salary and pension it would be different and newsworthy.

    Even some large consultancies (EY, Deloitte etc) have Irish and other staff working in local partnerships around Europe. So- while they may be doing Irish work- they are officially employed by a company based in a different EU country- and subject to employment law, tax etc- where they are actually working. Even before Covid- this was how they did things.


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    #3163
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    dotsman wrote: »
    But a lot of staff are originally from other EU countries. If they were to return home and transfer their roles to their home country, it would have a terrible impact on the local economy (both spending and tax base).

    While people (understandably) want a decrease in rents, it needs to be because supply has increased to meet demand. Whereas, if it is because there is less highly paid people living in Dublin, then that is bad for everyone.


    My company offers similar, but there is not a lot of take up when people weigh it up. And in our place you can stay on Irish salary for a year before you must move to the local salary scale.

    Workers have come to Ireland for particular reasons. If they wanted to stay at home and work they would not have come to Ireland in the first place.
    Facebook wont be giving them the same salary, conditions of employment etc as they have in Ireland.

    Also there are limited places you can live and work for Facebook. I would say there will be very few takers for this.


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    #3164
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,055 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    My company offers similar, but there is not a lot of take up when people weigh it up. And in our place you can stay on Irish salary for a year before you must move to the local salary scale.

    Workers have come to Ireland for particular reasons. If they wanted to stay at home and work they would not have come to Ireland in the first place.
    Facebook wont be giving them the same salary, conditions of employment etc as they have in Ireland.

    Also there are limited places you can live and work for Facebook. I would say there will be very few takers for this.

    While FB had become reliant on the model where employees moved to Ireland/Dublin and attended an office daily for work, that model has now been altered irrevocably. You may think that this announcement will only have a limited application, but this may well be the beginning of wfh in other countries becoming an accepted, and even preferable work model. This is exactly what the Recruiter being interviewed last year warned could be the long term implication of office attendance no longer being a requirement. Once the taxation implications are accepted, recruitment for the jobs currently being done in Dublin may be done in any country where the company has an office.

    You see this news as just click bait, others see it as a sign of things to come.


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    #3165
    Blut2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭Blut2


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    It looks to me like they will give you a job in another European country. You will be working for the local company and will no longer be a facebook ireland employee.
    Lots of multinationals doing that already. Dont know why its even news.
    Now if they let you keep your employment conditions and irish salary and pension it would be different and newsworthy.

    60-80% of the larger MNC tech junior staff are non-Irish. They're almost all recruited in from the rest of Europe because they speak multiple languages, and Irish graduates don't. If they can now work from their home countries instead of Dublin the majority almost certainly will.

    Dublin isn't a world city with the attraction of London or NYC that young people far and wide desire to live in for the experience. Its a provincial/regional city that just happens to have the living costs of London or NYC, that people live in for the sake of their jobs.

    Thats tens of thousands of high earning young people potentially about to leave the Dublin rental market.


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    #3166
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I'll say it one more time and then i wont bother you guys again about it, as its coming up in other threads too.
    Lots of companies, including facebook work this way already.
    Nothing has changed. There are not 10s of thousands of people lining up to leave Dublin because of a publicity announcement from Facebook.
    More people come to work in Ireland than leave.
    This may change eventually, but this is not going to change it.


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    #3167
    Blut2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭Blut2


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I'll say it one more time and then i wont bother you guys again about it, as its coming up in other threads too.
    Lots of companies, including facebook work this way already.
    Nothing has changed. There are not 10s of thousands of people lining up to leave Dublin because of a publicity announcement from Facebook.
    More people come to work in Ireland than leave.
    This may change eventually, but this is not going to change it.

    I work for a large tech MNC. Lots of tech companies, including facebook, do not work this way already. During the lockdown they all made big fusses over their staff having to WFH from within Ireland for tax reasons. The staff weren't allowed to be fully resident in other countries before corona, or during corona. They had to be based in Ireland.

    It a huge, huge, change to now allow staff to work from their home countries full time instead.

    edit: this is even quoted directly in that Indo article:
    In a policy shift for the company, Mr Zuckerberg added that Facebook will now permit some staff attached to the firm’s Dublin office to work from outside Ireland.

    Up until now, Facebook has required ‘remote’ employees to work from locations within Ireland for regulatory and tax reasons.

    This is a complete change in policy that will effect tens of thousands of young, non-Irish, workers.


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    #3168
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,690 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Blut2 wrote: »
    I work for a large tech MNC. Lots of tech companies, including facebook, do not work this way already. During the lockdown they all made big fusses over their staff having to WFH from within Ireland for tax reasons. The staff weren't allowed to be fully resident in other countries before corona, or during corona. They had to be based in Ireland.

    It a huge, huge, change to now allow staff to work from their home countries full time instead.

    edit: this is even quoted directly in that Indo article:



    This is a complete change in policy that will effect tens of thousands of young, non-Irish, workers.

    So what's changed this week compared to last from a "regulatory and tax reasons." point of view?


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    #3169
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭yagan


    Ace2007 wrote: »

    So what's changed this week compared to last from a "regulatory and tax reasons." point of view?
    At a guess I'd say critical staff said they'll go with whichever company allows them WFH, even if it's less pay.

    We're in the single market for freedom of work, capital, goods and people. The legal workarounds have probably never been explored before so inertia ruled until now.


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    #3170
    Draco
    Subscribers Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭Draco


    Ace2007 wrote: »

    So what's changed this week compared to last from a "regulatory and tax reasons." point of view?
    Completely guessing here, but I suspect they've figured out a relatively straightforward way of transferring the employees to the local company so they're compliant.


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    #3171
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    Draco wrote: »
    Completely guessing here, but I suspect they've figured out a relatively straightforward way of transferring the employees to the local company so they're compliant.

    As it looks like these companies will have to pay CT tax locally maybe they are looking to setup legal entities in these countries and once you have a legal entity then transferring employees becomes easier.


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    #3172
    Blut2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    So what's changed this week compared to last from a "regulatory and tax reasons." point of view?

    My firm still require all WFH staff to be fully resident in Ireland so I have no idea, I have no insider knowledge of FB's decision.

    I'd agree with yagan's theory though that critical staff are possibly kicking up a fuss about being dragged back to the office (and Dublin) though, so its incentivizing FB to find creative solutions. Thats an issue a lot of firms are starting to face.


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    #3173
    selassie
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭selassie


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I'll say it one more time and then i wont bother you guys again about it, as its coming up in other threads too.
    Lots of companies, including facebook work this way already.
    Nothing has changed. There are not 10s of thousands of people lining up to leave Dublin because of a publicity announcement from Facebook.
    More people come to work in Ireland than leave.
    This may change eventually, but this is not going to change it.

    They really do not work this way already.

    The tech companies that have hired in Ireland in the past have overwhelmingly required bums in seats, 0 remote allowed.

    Now Dublin has to compete on COL & QOL with every major European city for highly paid workers without them being forced to be here by their corporate overloads.


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    #3174
    Amadan Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    It looks to me like they will give you a job in another European country. You will be working for the local company and will no longer be a facebook ireland employee.
    Lots of multinationals doing that already. Dont know why its even news.
    Now if they let you keep your employment conditions and irish salary and pension it would be different and newsworthy.

    You're missing the fact that a lot of employees in these companies came from abroad to work in Dublin and service their own markets. This is huge for them as they could now be employed by Facebook Madrid or Facebook Rome or whatever it is, meaning they don't have to relocate to Ireland after all. It never made sense anyway, other than as part of some tax arbitrage play, why someone from France, Spain, Italy etc sat in Dublin but work in their own language and service their own market. Particularly where this home market is in the EU anyway!

    Even if it doesn't result in too much of a dent in current numbers employed in Dublin, it could have implications for further plans to hire staff from other EU countries and ship them over to Dublin. The increase in rents the last few years correlates to new jobs and also net immigration. At best I see flat or slightly declining rents particularly in Dublin due to a combination of measures such as these, the increased supply of housing in planning and under development coming on stream and of course government legislation which will give employees a legal right to ask to WFH (which will be significant for anyone who has WFH the past year as their employers won't have much of a leg to stand on to block this legal request).


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    #3175
    Timing belt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Amadan Dubh wrote: »
    You're missing the fact that a lot of employees in these companies came from abroad to work in Dublin and service their own markets. This is huge for them as they could now be employed by Facebook Madrid or Facebook Rome or whatever it is, meaning they don't have to relocate to Ireland after all. It never made sense anyway, other than as part of some tax arbitrage play, why someone from France, Spain, Italy etc sat in Dublin but work in their own language and service their own market. Particularly where this home market is in the EU anyway!

    Even if it doesn't result in too much of a dent in current numbers employed in Dublin, it could have implications for further plans to hire staff from other EU countries and ship them over to Dublin. The increase in rents the last few years correlates to new jobs and also net immigration. At best I see flat or slightly declining rents particularly in Dublin due to a combination of measures such as these, the increased supply of housing in planning and under development coming on stream and of course government legislation which will give employees a legal right to ask to WFH (which will be significant for anyone who has WFH the past year as their employers won't have much of a leg to stand on to block this legal request).


    It will take at least 2 years for sufficient supply to hit the market to have any impact on rent.... The only way I see rent becoming cheaper is if we end up with negative net immigration. It will be interesting to see the details of FB allowing people to work from other countries as it might only be for a handful of roles especially if they need to prove that decision making and control needs to take place in Ireland for the tax benefit.


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    #3176
    Jmc25
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭Jmc25


    Timing belt wrote: »
    It will take at least 2 years for sufficient supply to hit the market to have any impact on rent.....

    Nationally I'd say rents are only going up for the foreseeable but in Dublin there appears to be a significant number of newly built apartments currently lying empty due to asking rents being more than people are willing to pay.

    That will end soon one way or another - either the institutional landlords will get the rents they're looking for due to a rush back into Dublin in Autumn, or they'll drop their prices, and Dublin rents may fall, although probably not hugely.

    As far as I can see they're already moderating. Hardly a scientific study, but I found a new rental in earlier this year and have been keeping my eye on the areas I was looking in, and in the last few weeks asking rents *seem* to have reduced by 50 - 100 per month. This ties in with my experience earlier in the year where quite a few letting agents seemed willing to negotiate a lower rent with me.

    Having said that I was surprised to see increases reported in the Daft Q1 report, it was totally contrary to my own experience.


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    #3177
    Phat Cat
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Phat Cat


    Jmc25 wrote: »
    Nationally I'd say rents are only going up for the foreseeable but in Dublin there appears to be a significant number of newly built apartments currently lying empty due to asking rents being more than people are willing to pay.

    That will end soon one way or another - either the institutional landlords will get the rents they're looking for due to a rush back into Dublin in Autumn, or they'll drop their prices, and Dublin rents may fall, although probably not hugely.

    As far as I can see they're already moderating. Hardly a scientific study, but I found a new rental in earlier this year and have been keeping my eye on the areas I was looking in, and in the last few weeks asking rents *seem* to have reduced by 50 - 100 per month. This ties in with my experience earlier in the year where quite a few letting agents seemed willing to negotiate a lower rent with me.

    Having said that I was surprised to see increases reported in the Daft Q1 report, it was totally contrary to my own experience.

    I totally depends on the area you're looking at, rents have dropped around the city centre, mainly due to everything being closed, on and off, for the last year or so. The suburbs have held firm though, probably due to WFH, but in places like Dún Laoghaire, rents are still very high and in some cases rising.

    Few examples:
    €2k for a 1 bedroom with BER D1 - https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/apartment-harbour-view-crofton-road-dun-laoghaire-co-dublin/3280060
    €1950 for a 1 bedroom with BER A2 - https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/apartment-adelphi-manor-dun-laoghaire-co-dublin/3195355


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    #3178
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Jmc25 wrote: »
    Nationally I'd say rents are only going up for the foreseeable but in Dublin there appears to be a significant number of newly built apartments currently lying empty due to asking rents being more than people are willing to pay.

    That will end soon one way or another - either the institutional landlords will get the rents they're looking for due to a rush back into Dublin in Autumn, or they'll drop their prices, and Dublin rents may fall, although probably not hugely.

    As far as I can see they're already moderating. Hardly a scientific study, but I found a new rental in earlier this year and have been keeping my eye on the areas I was looking in, and in the last few weeks asking rents *seem* to have reduced by 50 - 100 per month. This ties in with my experience earlier in the year where quite a few letting agents seemed willing to negotiate a lower rent with me.

    Having said that I was surprised to see increases reported in the Daft Q1 report, it was totally contrary to my own experience.
    The daft figure lag the market for one thing. the other is that some older stock at low rental levels was sold off and new stock at higher rents came in. There were also rent holidays given so rents were overstated.
    In the autumn the return of students will of itself increase demand massively. There are more third level places than ever before. The number of homeless reduced as they were able to source accommodation during the lockdown. that accommodation is now lost to the market.
    Many landlords will sell as the moratorium on terminations expires. They are aghast at what has happened when protections were put in place for tenants and nothing done for them.
    Unless the rent caps are lifted there will be very little of a fall in rents. The big funds are setting up an exit strategy which calls for a sale at a point when the highest possible rent is coming in.


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    #3179
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,690 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    yagan wrote: »
    At a guess I'd say critical staff said they'll go with whichever company allows them WFH, even if it's less pay.

    We're in the single market for freedom of work, capital, goods and people. The legal workarounds have probably never been explored before so inertia ruled until now.
    Draco wrote: »
    Completely guessing here, but I suspect they've figured out a relatively straightforward way of transferring the employees to the local company so they're compliant.
    Blut2 wrote: »
    My firm still require all WFH staff to be fully resident in Ireland so I have no idea, I have no insider knowledge of FB's decision.

    I'd agree with yagan's theory though that critical staff are possibly kicking up a fuss about being dragged back to the office (and Dublin) though, so its incentivizing FB to find creative solutions. Thats an issue a lot of firms are starting to face.

    Or FB are potentially using this time to show Ireland what will happen if they agree to the 15% global tax regime, and it's all just a play


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    #3180
    Blut2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Ireland has effectively no say in that. Whatever gets decided by the G7 will be what happens. We won't be going against them.

    That does also bode poorly for the Dublin rental market though, but it will take a few years before that has any impact.


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    #3181
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    Phat Cat wrote: »
    I totally depends on the area you're looking at, rents have dropped around the city centre, mainly due to everything being closed, on and off, for the last year or so. The suburbs have held firm though, probably due to WFH, but in places like Dún Laoghaire, rents are still very high and in some cases rising.

    Few examples:
    €2k for a 1 bedroom with BER D1 - https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/apartment-harbour-view-crofton-road-dun-laoghaire-co-dublin/3280060
    €1950 for a 1 bedroom with BER A2 - https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/apartment-adelphi-manor-dun-laoghaire-co-dublin/3195355

    The greater DL area has a huge amount of stock to hit the market in the next 12/18 months. With the rents being asked for I just don't see the private market taking it up. Looking for 2.2k for a 2 bed when you can get something good in D4 for that price won't fly. Are these large developments taking HAP payments or do the blocks out there have high vacancy rates like the ones in town?


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