Cyclists, insurance and road tax

statto25 · 20-04-2021 07:56AM

SeanW wrote: »

Yep.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax

Ireland's motor tax regime is a form of road tax. Eligibility for motor tax is based on usage of the road with a liable motor. Posters claiming that there is a tax on ownership are either ignorant of the law or are being dishonest. There is no tax on the ownership or off-road usage of motors. Liability only arises with motors being used on the road.

Then why can the motorist be fined if the car is parked in a public space and not in use on a road? Your argument is that its to allow the vehicle to be in use on our road infrastructure but the above would indicate otherwise

SeanW · 20-04-2021 08:05AM

statto25 wrote: »

Then why can the motorist be fined if the car is parked in a public space and not in use on a road? Your argument is that its to allow the vehicle to be in use on our road infrastructure but the above would indicate otherwise

If you park your car on the road, in for example an on-road parking space, it's still using the road. The motor tax office is fairly clear on the topic of off-road declarations - you can avoid liability for motor tax by declaring your car off the road. And they are crystal clear, the term is "off the road"

https://www.motarviews.ie/ORD/faq

km991148 · 20-04-2021 08:10AM

SeanW wrote: »

If you park your car on the road, in for example an on-road parking space, it's still using the road. The motor tax office is fairly clear on the topic of off-road declarations - you can avoid liability for motor tax by declaring your car off the road. And they are crystal clear, the term is "off the road"

https://www.motarviews.ie/ORD/faq

Also if you dismantle the car in a breakers yard, you don't need to pay either.

Lots of definitions of what it isn't..

marvin80 · 20-04-2021 08:10AM

I'd question why a person with such a low post count can start a bullsh*t thread like this that's been done over and over on boards.

Maybe they'll go for the boards bingo and start threads about travellers and foreigners.

Wanderer78 · 20-04-2021 08:11AM

marvin80 wrote:

Maybe they'll go for the boards bingo and start threads about travellers and foreigners.

And the jackpot dole thread

John_Rambo · 20-04-2021 08:25AM

marvin80 wrote: »

I'd question why a person with such a low post count can start a bullsh*t thread like this that's been done over and over on boards.

It is interesting though. Over the years of these mouth breather threads there's a huge shift in support for cyclists from younger, more skilled, better trained motorists.

Much more modern thinking with an appreciation for road sharing and safety. Amazing how out of touch the die hard anti cyclist brigade are looking here.

SeanW · 20-04-2021 08:25AM

km991148 wrote: »

Also if you dismantle the car in a breakers yard, you don't need to pay either.

Correct. A car that has been dismantled (and recorded as such) will no longer be on the road. Ergo it's no longer liable for taxes based on road usage, like Ireland's Motor Tax.

Lots of definitions of what it isn't..

Not sure what you mean by this.

statto25 · 20-04-2021 08:27AM

km991148 wrote: »

Also if you dismantle the car in a breakers yard, you don't need to pay either.

Lots of definitions of what it isn't..

If the car is in a breakers yard a cert of destruction is issued to declare the vehicle has been retired for scrap or crushing

Fighting Tao · 20-04-2021 08:33AM

SeanW wrote: »

If a cyclist cannot see a pothole in good enough time to slow down for it or avoid it as necessary, they shouldn't be on the road.

This. is. false. Full stop. You can own however many motors you like, they are only liable for tax if they are on a public road. Any other distinction, such as emissions, engine capacity on pre-'08 vehicles etc. are secondary. Your liability for motor tax is your usage of the roads with said motor. There is no other criteria. That's why some people call their motor tax, road tax. The claim that there is a tax on motor ownership is a falsehood. Pure and simple.

So you don’t choose to own a car? You don’t choose wether or not to use it in a public space??? It’s all choices, so please don’t misrepresent what I am saying.

km991148 · 20-04-2021 08:33AM

SeanW wrote: »

Correct. A car that has been dismantled (and recorded as such) will no longer be on the road. Ergo it's no longer liable for taxes based on road usage, like Ireland's Motor Tax.

lol - you are determined to keep introducing your own language (and then pontificate on the ignorance and dishonesty of others..).

Motor tax is a tax that has to be paid in order to use a vehicle (mechanically propelled) in a public place. That's it. Not usage of roads, emissions or any other such nonsense.

When you keep introducing woolly terminology you are going to keep getting people arguing against you. Either we all then have to accept everyones woolly definitions (emissions etc) or just stick to the facts. The legal definition is quite clear here.

SeanW wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by this.

I mean as well as introducing your own language, you keep saying things that the tax is not.

SeanW · 20-04-2021 08:39AM

I'm never claimed that the term "road tax" has any standing in law. But Ireland's Motor Tax scheme is linked to a motor being on public roads. So clearly so that there is a procedure for declaring a car "off the road". That's why it's often called road tax, because it is a type of road tax.

km991148 · 20-04-2021 08:42AM

SeanW wrote: »

I'm never claimed that the term "road tax" has any standing in law. But Ireland's Motor Tax scheme is linked to a motor being on public roads. So clearly so that there is a procedure for declaring a car "off the road". That's why it's often called road tax, because it is a type of road tax.

Its also "linked to emissions" but you reject others saying that.

Colloquially it is known as a road tax. But saying its based on usage (of roads) is as incorrect as saying its fully based on emissions. You need the tax paid to access public roads, but your usage of them is irrelevant.

I'm not really wanting to get into some pedantic debate on it - I just don't understand why others are arguing it (and somehow managed to get sucked into it myself..).

So if you keep saying "based on usage" you are going to keep getting people arguing over it (like has happened on every single thread I've seen on this). Same as when people keep saying its a tax on emissions you will keep arguing back with them (you are both wrong! - Although emissions does factor into the calculation in some form at least.)

Fine - its your time I guess, I'd just rather you didn't wave the "common sense" stick at me in the middle of such nonsense!

VonLuck · 20-04-2021 08:53AM

I've gotten lost in all of this discussion. Is the argument currently that bicycle users should pay motor tax? If so, for what exact purpose? Just to get a dig in, or are the proponents looking to increase funding for cycling infrastructure?

Pinch Flat · 20-04-2021 08:56AM

VonLuck wrote: »

I've gotten lost in all of this discussion. Is the argument currently that bicycle users should pay motor tax? If so, for what exact purpose? Just to get a dig in, or are the proponents looking to increase funding for cycling infrastructure?

The main jist is that we live in some motorists head rent free. never realized the humble bicycle could cause such emotion in some people.

magicbastarder · 20-04-2021 09:02AM

i would be happy to pay road tax, but i don't own any roads which could be taxed.
i do have a path in my garden, does that count? and a driveway.

km991148 · 20-04-2021 09:05AM

If I had to pay more tax in this country (based on my bicycle usage!), I think it would push me to actually campaign for things like completely banning motorised traffic in our cities etc.

Its as petty as "wanting bike usage taxed" (however you phrase it) - but seems entirely fair - why should I have to pay more than the ridiculous amounts (especially in times when I do actually own a car, that gets used less) - to sit behind vehicular traffic and ride on roads that I can barely go faster than 20 on because they are in such poor state due to heavier traffic.

maestroamado · 20-04-2021 09:10AM

I am a cyclist and a motorist, i also have cycled a bit abroad where the average cyclist is more mature then in this country.
What i mean is they cycle single file except where organized events and designated areas, you will not see a train of cyclists taking control of the road like here, i live on a route where quite alot of cyclists use.

I do not think they should pay road tax, however i do think they should have insurance for their bikes + personal liability with the usual claim bonus etc, then if there is an incident the insurance companies can sort this out, whoever is at fault takes the hit, as things are now the car insurance company will have to pay if there is damage or injury...

magicbastarder · 20-04-2021 09:13AM

maestroamado wrote: »

What i mean is they cycle single file except where organized events and designated areas, you will not see a train of cyclists taking control of the road like here

a group of cyclists cycling in single file is more dangerous. the behaviour you describe would hardly be described as 'mature'.

i will regularly 'take control' of the road, as you put it, for my own safety. if this is preventing a motorist behind from doing something, yes, that actually is my goal. it's preventing them from performing dangerous overtakes.

Hurrache · 20-04-2021 09:17AM

It's hilarious to see some of the same eejits attracted to this thread after it's being on going so long. Two of them most active in the small hours trotting their same crap out.

A good looking cyclist, aren't they all, must have wiped their eye at some point and they've been bitter ever since.

Pinch Flat · 20-04-2021 09:18AM

Yup never felt guilty for defensive riding. Particularly taking the lane to turn right.

SeanW · 20-04-2021 09:18AM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

So you don’t choose to own a car? You don’t choose wether or not to use it in a public space??? It’s all choices, so please don’t misrepresent what I am saying.

Whether or not to own a car, and whether or not to put a car on the road are entirely separate decisions. You're only taxed on the latter, not the former.

km991148 wrote: »

Its also "linked to emissions" but you reject others saying that.

Mainly because it only applies to vehicles registered after July 2008 and even then, is still predicated on the same main criteria - being on or off the road.

Colloquially it is known as a road tax. But saying its based on usage (of roads) is as incorrect as saying its fully based on emissions. You need the tax paid to access public roads, but your usage of them is irrelevant.

I'm not sure what the difference is between usage and access in this context. It's really simple. If your motor is on the road, it's liable for motor tax. If it's off the road, (and declared to be so, or is a type of motor that was never on the road in the first place, e.g. a stationary generator or any other type of off-road motor) it's not liable for motor tax.

I'm not really wanting to get into some pedantic debate on it - I just don't understand why others are arguing it (and somehow managed to get sucked into it myself..).

I think the reason is that the cycling brigade have declared a jihad (metaphorically speaking) on the term "road tax" because ... reasons ...

Thelonious Monk · 20-04-2021 09:21AM

Sean why the f*ck do you care so much about people using bikes? It's just weird. And bikes aren't going anywhere and will never have to pay tax or insurance, just deal with it.

Fighting Tao · 20-04-2021 09:23AM

SeanW wrote: »

Whether or not to own a car, and whether or not to put a car on the road are entirely separate decisions. You're only taxed on the latter, not the former.

Are you forced to take it into a public space? Someone holding a gun to your head. See, it is a choice to own, and a choice to use it in such a way that incurs motor tax. Please report whoever is threatening your life to the gardaí, because you should feel safe and know it’s ok not to own a car, and not to use it in public spaces.

Fighting Tao · 20-04-2021 09:26AM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Sean why the f*ck do you care so much about people using bikes? It's just weird. And bikes aren't going anywhere and will never have to pay tax or insurance, just deal with it.

Probably because those big bad people who cycle slow him down for all of 5 seconds in the race to get to the next set of red traffic lights.

FileNotFound · 20-04-2021 09:30AM

46 Pages of ranting.

All to complain about a few people who do some physical exercise and keep emissions down.

Bikes are going to become more and more popular with less room for cars on the roads in cities at least.

Bikes and buses - the future....

They won't tax or insure bikes as they want people to use them and get out of cars... It reduces your chances of being a fat slob and helps the environment. Win win

magicbastarder · 20-04-2021 09:33AM

FileNotFound wrote: »

They won't tax or insure bikes as they want people to use them and get out of cars

yep; how do we get more kids to cycle to school; not by turning them into a cash cow anyway.

km991148 · 20-04-2021 09:39AM

Hurrache wrote: »

It's hilarious to see some of the same eejits attracted to this thread after it's being on going so long. Two of them most active in the small hours trotting their same crap out.

A good looking cyclist, aren't they all, must have wiped their eye at some point and they've been bitter ever since.

Ah sure, feck it sometimes I can't sleep and the TV is crap.

Not bitter tho.. it's all nonsense on these parts of the internet..

John_Rambo · 20-04-2021 09:45AM

Anti cyclist brigade being absolutely owned on this thread by modern, European thinking motorists & cyclists.

Great to see them calmly educated on tax matters, safe driving and responsible car ownership.

km991148 · 20-04-2021 09:48AM

SeanW wrote: »

Whether or not to own a car, and whether or not to put a car on the road are entirely separate decisions. You're only taxed on the latter, not the former.

Mainly because it only applies to vehicles registered after July 2008 and even then, is still predicated on the same main criteria - being on or off the road.

I'm not sure what the difference is between usage and access in this context. It's really simple. If your motor is on the road, it's liable for motor tax. If it's off the road, (and declared to be so, or is a type of motor that was never on the road in the first place, e.g. a stationary generator or any other type of off-road motor) it's not liable for motor tax.

I think the reason is that the cycling brigade have declared a jihad (metaphorically speaking) on the term "road tax" because ... reasons ...

I'm really not calling out the 'road tax' aspect... Nor am I representative if the cycling brigade.

I'm happy to call the tax that's paid to use a vehicle 'road tax' because that's what everyone calls it and is the accepted term.
I just find it funny that you go a chastise others for their interpretation and made up terminology while doing the same yourself. You are causing confusion by doing this..

Usage and access.. 'usage' implies a lot more and when you say 'based on usage' it doubles down on that and sound like 'the more you use, the more you pay' sorta stuff.

magicbastarder · 20-04-2021 09:49AM

though, to string this argument out a little more, an example of how cars are a grossly inefficient use of public space, which is why we want to 'subsidise' cyclists by not charging them to cycle.
the M50 is one of the biggest investments in public infrastructure ever undertaken in this country; and yes, it's a vital piece of road infrastructure, i'm not arguing that.

but if you were to place cars (with one driver each) literally bumper to bumper - actually touching - on the M50, on the wide section from the M1 interchange to the sandyford junction, using all four lanes in each direction, so eight lanes of cars actually touching - all those drivers would *easily* fit into croke park. they'd take up roughly two out of every three seats.

other countries have now started to subsidise people to get rid of their cars and replace them with bikes. but we're drawn back to this argument here time and again about making cycling less appealing with talk of tokenistic and ineffectual charges.

Cyclists, insurance and road tax

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