Boards' traveller problem

[Deleted User] · 17-04-2021 8:30pm

Overheal wrote: »

You seem to misunderstand entirely. Judging any group as a whole based on your own anecdotal experience is fallible logic. Whether you have a negatively discriminatory view of them or a positive one. All the great positive experiences of Irish doesn’t mean that there aren’t thieves, vandals, rapists, etc. who are not Irish origin.

The idea that you can’t generalise about a group is false. It might be wrong to generalise about an individual but groups can be generalised about. In fact both left and right generalise about travellers (high unemployment) the difference is where blame is apportioned.

Overheal · 17-04-2021 8:53pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The idea that you can’t generalise about a group is false. It might be wrong to generalise about an individual but groups can be generalised about. In fact both left and right generalise about travellers (high unemployment) the difference is where blame is apportioned.

Clearly there’s a difference between quantifying the rate of traveler unemployment and categorizing travelers as thieves, vandals, etc.

We aren’t quantifying the crime rate we’re sharing anecdotes and justifying why it’s okay to hate the travelers as a result.

[Deleted User] · 17-04-2021 8:54pm

Overheal wrote: »

40 experiences and you get to say an entire ethnic group are “overall thieves liars and vandals?”

No sorry that’s discrimination.

I’ve met more than 40 stupid Irish people and I don’t get to say overall the Irish are a retarded bunch. And if I really did I think you’d be one in line to be upset I had.

Im glad you learned not to use that term
......five posts ago.....

furthermore, your dismissal of my post above was trite and i dont accept it reflected the points made, tbh. Thanks anyway

osarusan · 17-04-2021 9:06pm

nullzero wrote: »

We have one guiding principle: Don't be a dick.

And yet the forum is full of them.

nullzero · 17-04-2021 9:11pm

Overheal wrote: »

That’s a weak cop out. Just like people hate Muslims “because of the actions of Muslims” - nobody buys that is a cover for racism. Neither do you surely.

Poor comparison. Reach for the emotive language again that should win the argument.

As an example, I hate skangers (scumbags in case you're not up to speed with all Irish colloquialisms). Groups of scumbags causing trouble, treating the rest of society with contempt, never have jobs, selling drugs, in and out of prison, you know the type.

If I see a group of young fellas in town, grey Tracksuit bottoms, Nike Air max with no socks, hands down their trousers, fake Canada Goose jackets and blue baseball caps, I'm making a call in my head about them based on past experiences. They are typically, like me 99.9% the same as travellers, we're all Irish but I have experience of the behaviour of these groups and I'm wary of them.

What happens in 50 or 100 years time where dole scrounging scumbags decide they are a separate ethnic minority in this country? Do we have to tip toe around them in case we're being insensitive to them?

You will find travellers who behave like normal people (and yes they do exist), who treat others with respect are in turn treated with respect.

This reductionist notion you have where you put all the groups of people you label in your mind as "oppressed" into a box away from the rest of the world puzzles me.

Eggs For Dinner · 17-04-2021 9:33pm

Overheal wrote: »

You seem to misunderstand entirely. Judging any group as a whole based on your own anecdotal experience is fallible logic. Whether you have a negatively discriminatory view of them or a positive one. All the great positive experiences of Irish doesn’t mean that there aren’t thieves, vandals, rapists, etc. who are not Irish origin.

Why do you assume my experiences with travellers is anecdotal? I'd bet my pension you've never had a direct contract with travellers. I've had nearly 60 years of interaction with them, some everyday harmless stuff, more often than not its been horrendous. . My opinion won't change and I can live comfortably with that.

KyussB · 17-04-2021 10:11pm

I don't like the whole concept of hate speech etc., given how quickly and easily it is expanded and used to limit valid speech - so I don't think specific rules for this on Boards are a good idea - but I do think mods should have enough leeway to apply social pressure (without harsh mod action or bans, but perhaps thread bans in bad cases) which heavily dissuades making ignorant generalizations about travellers.

A lot of people have had bad experiences with travellers. I've had bad experiences, and have generalized about travellers myself before due to such experiences.

The reason it's harmful to generalize about travellers, even if you feel it is the majority - is because this becomes self-perpetuating: The more prevalent these attitudes towards travellers are, the more that travellers who are genuinely ok are discriminated against along with the rest of their community, and the more they fall into the deprivation and tropes which cause people to view the wider traveller community badly - keeping that cycle going.

It's a political/economic problem really. If some people become unemployable in the private sector, due to unequal/disadvantaged upbringing and/or due to discrimination against their community - hell, even if a criminal history makes them unemployable in the private sector - then it's societies choice to allow these people to remain unemployed. That's not just a problem with the traveller community, it's a problem with any/all groups/people who end up involuntarily unemployed.

You get two general camps of people then:
1: The 'personal responsibility' crowd, who lump all of the problems travellers face onto them individually or onto their community - therefore 'fuck them', no need to do anything about it, their own fault etc. - these people are a problem, they are a reason to dissuade (but not ban) the harmful generalizations against travellers.

2: The people who recognize it's a complex problem of deprivation/discrimination. Few would go as far as me, in saying it's societies choice to leave travellers unemployed, though.

dulpit · 17-04-2021 10:30pm

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Why do you assume my experiences with travellers is anecdotal?

Because that's the definition of anecdotal?

[Deleted User] · 18-04-2021 7:28am

<snip>

Pelvis Parsley · 18-04-2021 11:15am

Anyone hand wringing on behalf of a dead traveller and the “labelling” of him should probably look him up before they defend him too strenuously.

No doubt he was another of the minority that make the majority look bad.

These particular stereotypes exist for a reason.

bunny_mac · 18-04-2021 11:39am

<snip>

[Deleted User] · 18-04-2021 12:44pm

I think people should stop criticising the group of people that criticise travellers as a group, as a group

Ive checked that twice, i think its right

anewme · 18-04-2021 12:59pm

Pelvis Parsley wrote: »

Anyone hand wringing on behalf of a dead traveller and the “labelling” of him should probably look him up before they defend him too strenuously.

No doubt he was another of the minority that make the majority look bad.

These particular stereotypes exist for a reason.

Stick up a photo of your house and see how you like it when people label you a thief then.

Signore Fancy Pants · 18-04-2021 1:07pm

anewme wrote: »

Stick up a photo of your house and see how you like it when people label you a thief then.

What is the specific title of the thread in AH?

Leg End Reject · 18-04-2021 1:20pm

anewme wrote: »

Stick up a photo of your house and see how you like it when people label you a thief then.

There was one comment made in jest, this is you taking a comment and running with it to suit your argument again.

You won't "educate" people to align their views to your own sensibilities, we are all individuals.

anewme · 18-04-2021 1:43pm

Leg End Reject wrote: »

There was one comment made in jest, this is you taking a comment and running with it to suit your argument again.

You won't "educate" people to align their views to your own sensibilities, we are all individuals.

I'd say that posting photos of someone's home without their knowledge and making insinuations about them is dickish behaviour.

There are numerous comments about that home and its owners, horse, caravans, boss, stuff falling off the back of a lorry. No one has any idea who these people are, so it's all based on their home. It's not one comment.

All the stereotyoes people are talking about here.

I note you claimed here in this thread that you commented on another traveller home before seeing the RIP notice, when in fact, that's not true and you should clarify that in the interest of transparency in a feedback thread.

Leg End Reject · 18-04-2021 1:59pm

anewme wrote: »

I'd say that posting photos of someone's home without their knowledge and making insinuations about them is dickish behaviour.

There are numerous comments about that home and its owners, horse, caravans, boss, stuff falling off the back of a lorry. No one has any idea who these people are, so it's all based on their home. It's not one comment.

All the stereotyoes people are talking about here.

I note you claimed here in this thread that you commented on another traveller home before seeing the RIP notice, when in fact, that's not true and you should clarify that in the interest of transparency in a feedback thread.

My comment about the poster WAS before the RIP notice, so no clarification needed. It's still there I think, my comment was one of the first, the RIP notice came later.

Comments are made about other demographics too if you actually read the thread. There was one "back of a lorry" comment and most of us saw that as a joke.

As I've said in an earlier post, we're all aware our own homes would attract comments if posted. Asking someone to put up pictures themselves though isn't a fair comparison, because if anyone they knew saw the post they would be identifiable. This is an anonymous forum so people are entitled to not reveal their identity.

Again, you do not get to decide the opinions or views of others. We do not have to get offended at everything you personally find offensive. We are not a hivemind or The Borg.

Signore Fancy Pants · 18-04-2021 2:03pm

anewme wrote: »

That's why people are asking for more transparency.

Insinuating someone is a thief based on nothing more than a photo of their home is a serious allegation to make and should be treated accordingly.

knucklehead6 wrote: »

It’s interesting to see how people’s perspectives differ and can change over time. I remember a thread from a good while back where you were seriously intolerant of travellers, and traveller behaviour.

anewme wrote: »

I'd say that posting photos of someone's home without their knowledge and making insinuations about them is dickish behaviour.

There are numerous comments about that home and its owners, horse, caravans, boss, stuff falling off the back of a lorry. No one has any idea who these people are, so it's all based on their home. It's not one comment.

All the stereotyoes people are talking about here.

I note you claimed here in this thread that you commented on another traveller home before seeing the RIP notice, when in fact, that's not true and you should clarify that in the interest of transparency in a feedback thread.

Yep, transparency.

anewme · 18-04-2021 2:04pm

Leg End Reject wrote: »

My comment about the poster WAS before the RIP notice, so no clarification needed. It's still there I think, my comment was one of the first, the RIP notice came later.

You made more than one comment about that home.

The first one did come before the RIP Notice.

Leg End Reject · 18-04-2021 2:09pm

anewme wrote: »

You made more than one comment about that home.

The first one did come before the RIP Notice.

Yes and they're still there after a mod deleted the RIP notice.

I've just checked, one was asking what another poster had noticed about the bathroom, the other a response to a comment by another poster. Neither were specific to travellers.

They offended you, and you alone.

anewme · 18-04-2021 2:14pm

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Yes and they're still there after a mod deleted the RIP notice.

I've just checked, one was asking what another poster had noticed about the bathroom, the other a response to a comment by another poster. Neither were specific to travellers.

They offended you, and you alone.

Did you not laugh at their dishes as well?

As an aside and I know humour is subjective, do you not think that commenting on dead peoples homes is poor form.

Not specific to travellers and not aimed at you, another poster said that many of the Homes are Executor sales. I'd go mad if for example trawling through Boards, I saw my family home being slagged off after burying my Mum.

Is that not dickish behaviour?

Leg End Reject · 18-04-2021 2:19pm

anewme wrote: »

Did you not laugh at their dishes as well?

As an aside an i know humour is subjective, do you not think that commenting on dead peoples homes is poor form.

Not specific to travellers and not aimed at you, another poster said that many of the Homes are Executor sales. I'd go mad if for example trawling through Boards, I saw my family home being slagged off.

The comment I responded to was about cups. As far as I'm aware the use of cups is not specific to travellers.

The homes are advertised on the internet with the permission of the vendors, there is no privacy issue.

Yes, you said you'd "Be livid if your elderly mum's home" appeared on the thread after she passed, so this is an example of you personalising the entire thread. My family home was sold and I'm under no illusion that anyone looked at it and wanted to move in and not change anything. There's no need to find offence, it's just reality.

Leg End Reject · 18-04-2021 2:22pm

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Yep, transparency.

I'd be interested in this too.

anewme · 18-04-2021 2:27pm

Leg End Reject wrote: »

As I've said in an earlier post, we're all aware our own homes would attract comments if posted. Asking someone to put up pictures themselves though isn't a fair comparison, because if anyone they knew saw the post they would be identifiable. This is an anonymous forum so people are entitled to not reveal their identity.

Again, you do not get to decide the opinions or views of others. We do not have to get offended at everything you personally find offensive. We are not a hivemind or The Borg.

Yeah and that's fair enough in respect of your own house.

however I also believe the people putting their home up for sale could be identified by the photos and address.

I'm not sure why you keep saying that I'm deciding others opinions?

In this instance, an example was given and identified as racist on the radio forum where a hit and run was labelled a traveller with no info to say it was. In this instance, I believe saying stuff fell off the back of a lorry is the same.

This is a feedback thread, and it's an example I'm giving to Mods.

Leg End Reject · 18-04-2021 2:34pm

anewme wrote: »

Yeah and that's fair enough in respect of your own house.

however I also believe the people putting their home up for sale could be identified by the photos and address.

I'm not sure why you keep saying that I'm deciding others opinions?

In this instance, an example was given and identified as racist on the radio forum where a hit and run was labelled a traveller with no info to say it was. In this instance, I believe saying stuff fell off the back of a lorry is the same.

This is a feedback thread, and it's an example I'm giving to Mods.

But if you put your house up for sale and allow the estate agent to advertise it you are voluntarily given up that anonymity. Do you not see that?

I can't comment on the radio forum because I don't read it. I have addressed the comments in the house thread before.

You have asked in another thread how people can be educated, called for mod training, calibration of mod actions across all fora and repeatedly insisted that your opinion of what constitutes misogyny, sexism and racism is correct, often by quoting a few examples ad nauseum. You are looking for anything you find offensive to be actionable. We've all seen it.

Now, in the interests of transparency are you going to address the post quoted by Signore Fancy Pants?

knucklehead6 · 18-04-2021 2:56pm

anewme wrote: »

I'd say that posting photos of someone's home without their knowledge and making insinuations about them is dickish behaviour.

There are numerous comments about that home and its owners, horse, caravans, boss, stuff falling off the back of a lorry. No one has any idea who these people are, so it's all based on their home. It's not one comment.

All the stereotyoes people are talking about here.

I note you claimed here in this thread that you commented on another traveller home before seeing the RIP notice, when in fact, that's not true and you should clarify that in the interest of transparency in a feedback thread.

Again with the disingenuous comment. The photos being posted are lifted from MyHome and Daft. They are in the public domain and on those sites with the vendors knowledge. Stop making it out as if it’s anything different.

anewme · 18-04-2021 3:16pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Again with the disingenuous comment. The photos being posted are lifted from MyHome and Daft. They are in the public domain and on those sites with the vendors knowledge. Stop making it out as if it’s anything different.

I’m not sure what you are getting at. I’ve clearly said the photos come from daft.ie or the likes.

Something that is in the public domain for the purpose of selling their home.

I doubt very much that any of the owners are aware of how their photos are being used here on Boards.ie.

Do you think they would be ok with that?

knucklehead6 · 18-04-2021 3:23pm

anewme wrote: »

I’m not sure what you are getting at. I’ve clearly said the photos come from daft.ie or the likes.

Something that is in the public domain for the purpose of selling their home.

I doubt very much that any of the owners are aware of how their photos are being used here on Boards.ie.

Do you think they would be ok with that?

If I saw someone ripping the piss out of photos of my house on here I’d rethink my decor

If I was selling my house I’d have it as sterile as possible in the photos. No personal family photos or ornaments. The idea is to make the purchaser see the potential in the house.

end of the road · 18-04-2021 3:39pm

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

But as far as I can tell, Asians, blacks, women, gays don't have the negative effect on irish society that travelers have. I'm engaged to a woman. I work with a gay. My neighbours are black. One of my suppliers in work is Chinese. No problem with any of them.

If a man came from rank outsider to coming second in the presidential election of Ireland because he spoke out against travelers and their behaviour on national TV, I'm not going to be shy about it on an anonymous forum. I know the vast majority of people agree with me too so I'm not in a minority stance or anything even remotely close to it. A poll if filled out on boards or indeed anywhere about what people think about travelers it would be overwhelmingly negative about travelers. The garda did one actually it was published in newspapers.

If boards allows discussion on travelers, it's going to lead to negative comments. Every single time.
Only solution to that is to make them a taboo subject and forbidden to discuss.

the vast majority possibly agreeing with something doesn't make that something correct across the board.
the fact is, if you label a whole group of people on the basis of the actions of some, whether that some be a big number or a small one, you are a bigot at least and a racist at worst and you need to get over it.
and by the way, the more extreme racists would claim that blacks and all else have a negative effect on irish society. nonsense of course but they claim it.
look, we all know there are problem elements in the traveler community, it has never been denied apart from in the heads of some, but if you were to behave the same way to muslims who do have an extreme element which are a problem, the same way people behave in relation to travelers, it would rightly not be allowed and if and when such nonsense is expressed here it is generally dealt with.
negative comments about individuals who have been proven to have done something wrong is perfectly fine and justifiable given they have committed a crime or whatever, calling a whole group all sorts because of the actions of some of that group, on the other hand isn't fine.
discuss actual actions by individual travelers away, just leave the bigoted nonsense out, or if you do express it then expect to be challenged and called out on it.

Pelvis Parsley wrote: »

Anyone hand wringing on behalf of a dead traveller and the “labelling” of him should probably look him up before they defend him too strenuously.

No doubt he was another of the minority that make the majority look bad.

These particular stereotypes exist for a reason.

every stereo type exists for a reason in the minds of those engaging in stereo types.
the fact they exist for a "reason" is not an argument for them being correct, incorrect, or for their validity, at least across the board in terms of a whole group of people.

Leg End Reject · 18-04-2021 3:41pm

anewme wrote: »

I’m not sure what you are getting at. I’ve clearly said the photos come from daft.ie or the likes.

Something that is in the public domain for the purpose of selling their home.

I doubt very much that any of the owners are aware of how their photos are being used here on Boards.ie.

Do you think they would be ok with that?

Are you going to address the post about you own intolerance to traveller behaviour in the interest of transparency? Do you think they'd be ok with that?