2021 Irish Property Market chat - mod warnings post 1

bilbot79 · 07-04-2021 02:20AM

JimmyVik wrote: »

To be fair, houses are definitely not getting built with large plots anymore in SCD. So I guess they are scarce alright.

What constitutes a large plot? In sq m like

enricoh · 07-04-2021 07:38AM

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40259750.html?type=amp

Our corporation tax glory days seem to be numbered, hopefully they can agree a date of 2030 for it to get harmonized and we can wean ourselves off gently. Otherwise it's cold turkey!
Ireland gets more in corporation tax than france n germany combined- god bless their tolerance and our brass neck!

Anyone looking for a foreva home may get one quick, I can't see the government squandering as much as they are now on housing in the coming years.

Hubertj · 07-04-2021 07:46AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Meanwhile down near the other capital you can have the water views with space for a helipad and enough left over for a 911 turbo, helicopter and a modesty priced yacht.
https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/detached-house-windward-tisaxon-more-kinsale-co-cork/2577548

I was just reading an american article on 10 best places for americans to retire in Europe and Kinsale made the list.

That’s a nice gaff. And the number of langers you encounter in Kinsale is manageable.

Stark · 07-04-2021 08:25AM

Funny thing I'm looking at two houses in the same estate, both look identical spec and equally nice judging from the photos/video. One had asking price of 450k, the other had asking price of 495k. The 450k house has gone sale agreed for 560k (madness for a 90m2 3 bed semi-d, one bathroom, built in 90s). The other has no offers at all. Wonder if it's a case of people seeing the more attractive initial asking price and then a mania taking over when it gets to bidding?

The_Conductor · 07-04-2021 08:37AM

We critically need the PAC or someone with the power to make a difference, to take an interest in this- as the abuse of taxpayers funds is obscene.

theballz · 07-04-2021 08:50AM

Stark wrote: »

Funny thing I'm looking at two houses in the same estate, both look identical spec and equally nice judging from the photos/video. One had asking price of 450k, the other had asking price of 495k. The 450k house has gone sale agreed for 560k (madness for a 90m2 3 bed semi-d, one bathroom, built in 90s). The other has no offers at all. Wonder if it's a case of people seeing the more attractive initial asking price and then a mania taking over when it gets to bidding?

Some agents will lowball the asking price to create demand and will ultimately try start a bidding war to drive the price up.

Asking prices these days are fluff, just another example of the lack of regulations in Ireland.

awec · 07-04-2021 09:01AM

Villa05 wrote: »

Do people who buy a 3 million house use the Dart?

Sorry this is an education for me

The people buying that sort of house are more "normal" than you'd think.

MacronvFrugals · 07-04-2021 09:26AM

Donohoe warns pandemic has boosted international calls to raise corporate tax

Demands by larger economies for changes to global tax policy could prove hard to resist as they have been “supercharged” by the Covid-19 crisis, Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe has indicated.

https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/donohoe-warns-pandemic-has-boosted-international-calls-to-raise-corporate-tax-245bbbde

RichardAnd · 07-04-2021 09:30AM

Bruno Millions Geisha wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/glenveagh-secures-green-light-for-702-build-to-rent-apartments-1.4530316

As part of its Part V social housing obligations, Glenveagh is planning to sell six three-bed apartments at an indicative cost of €791,531 each to the city council as part of the proposed €33.4 million deal.

The builder is also planning to sell 14 two-bed apartments to the council at a cost of €641,899 each and 41 one-bed apartments at a cost of €408,074 each. It also plans to sell 10 studio apartments to the council at a cost of €297,323 each.

obscene

Would these apartments get these prices if put on the open market? I'm not entirely sure that they would, especially not if all were put on the market at the same time.

07-04-2021 09:31AM

Bruno Millions Geisha wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/glenveagh-secures-green-light-for-702-build-to-rent-apartments-1.4530316

As part of its Part V social housing obligations, Glenveagh is planning to sell six three-bed apartments at an indicative cost of €791,531 each to the city council as part of the proposed €33.4 million deal.

The builder is also planning to sell 14 two-bed apartments to the council at a cost of €641,899 each and 41 one-bed apartments at a cost of €408,074 each. It also plans to sell 10 studio apartments to the council at a cost of €297,323 each.

obscene

Sickening but no surprise really.

MacronvFrugals · 07-04-2021 09:34AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

Would these apartments get these prices if put on the open market? I'm not entirely sure that they would, especially not if all were put on the market at the same time.

There's not a hope in hell they would! Sure that's why 4/5ths of apartments in Clancy Quay are vacant and this was pre-Covid also

The_Conductor · 07-04-2021 09:36AM

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Donohoe warns pandemic has boosted international calls to raise corporate tax

https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/donohoe-warns-pandemic-has-boosted-international-calls-to-raise-corporate-tax-245bbbde

Not necessarily an issue- if Ireland pushes home the message that its the effective rate of taxation that should matter- and *not* the headline rate.

Its all well and good having a 25% rate of Corporation tax- however, if you have so many loopholes that you don't collect anything (Amazon anyone) its completely meaningless. If you have a 12.5% rate of corporation tax and actually manage to collect the lions share of it- this is far more satisfactory- than the former situation.

This is precisely why Ireland has a higher effective rate of taxation than France. Our rates are lower- but we don't have all the stupid allowances that France has.

Looking at headline rates- in isolation of effective rates- is a complete and utter red herring- it does, however, sound good for politicians and voters- because Janet Yellen (or whoever) is seen to be doing something- when in actual fact, what she is proposing is completely meaningless without a root and branch review of the system of tax avoidance- which enables companies like Amazon, Tesla, Intel and many others- pay next to nothing (or in some cases actually generate a negative tax- aka a rebate) despite being absolute behemoths

Ireland has little/no say in these matters- we have to accept whatever the international consensus turns out to be- but it beholds us to kick up as much of a fuss from the sidelines as possible- pointing at 'effective rates of taxation' as opposed to headline rates of taxation.

mcsean2163 · 07-04-2021 09:37AM

awec wrote: »

If I had 3 million to spend on a house I'd buy that Blackrock one no bother.

I'd say that must tick nearly every box.

Highly desirable location (Blackrock).
Large property (those period gaffs are huge, particularly ones with extensions).
South facing, private garden
Recently renovated to very high standard so should be no hidden gotchas.
Off street parking.
Sea view that will never be disturbed.
On a relatively quiet road.
30 second walk to Dart station.

What is going against it? Proximity to the dart line maybe.

I couldn't disagree more with the first line. I've been actively resisting Blackrock for a long time.

When people ask is somewhere is a good area, I say the worst live in the 'good' areas and the best in the 'worst' areas. Obviously not true for everyone but I think it's a good rule of thumb. As an investment it's probably a good long term one but living there...

Wife is very keen to move but Blackrock is the one place in Ireland I've said no.

Browney7 · 07-04-2021 09:38AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

Would these apartments get these prices if put on the open market? I'm not entirely sure that they would, especially not if all were put on the market at the same time.

They would from a pension fund/reit who manages to get the state to agree to a bulk lease on the enhanced leasing scheme with annual CPI increases for 25 years that gives a "discount" on market rent. Or else the REIT with access to money at near 0% will buy the whole block and use it as a way to park money and lease out a few apartments to corporates.

It seems the state is putting a minimum value on rents by use of leasing schemes and HAP and also propping up values via part V.

PropQueries · 07-04-2021 09:48AM

Interesting one in the the Irish Times where even more new companies are interested in “helping” us solve our housing issues.

“Solas Living pays €40m for 157 homes across Dublin and Kildare”,

They also state that “Solas Living is also aiming to engage with local authorities in the capital and surrounding areas in relation to the provision of social housing.”.

The interesting one is it also lists some of the estates they’ve recently bought houses in and they do appear to be competing directly with FTBs for second hand homes in the Dublin and Kildare market.

Link to article in Irish Times here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/solas-living-pays-40m-for-157-homes-across-dublin-and-kildare-1.4530153

timmyntc · 07-04-2021 09:55AM

PropQueries wrote: »

Interesting one in the the Irish Times where even more new companies are interested in “helping” us solve our housing issues.

“Solas Living pays €40m for 157 homes across Dublin and Kildare”,

They also state that “Solas Living is also aiming to engage with local authorities in the capital and surrounding areas in relation to the provision of social housing.”.

The interesting one is it also lists some of the estates they’ve recently bought houses in and they do appear to be competing directly with FTBs for second hand homes in the Dublin and Kildare market.

Link to article in Irish Times here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/solas-living-pays-40m-for-157-homes-across-dublin-and-kildare-1.4530153

Must be a nice little money-spinner setting up an AHB.
The very fact that so many companies are chomping at the bit to lease properties to the state tells you something is very wrong.

MacronvFrugals · 07-04-2021 09:59AM

PropQueries wrote: »

Interesting one in the the Irish Times where even more new companies are interested in “helping” us solve our housing issues.

“Solas Living pays €40m for 157 homes across Dublin and Kildare”,

They also state that “Solas Living is also aiming to engage with local authorities in the capital and surrounding areas in relation to the provision of social housing.”.

The interesting one is it also lists some of the estates they’ve recently bought houses in and they do appear to be competing directly with FTBs for second hand homes in the Dublin and Kildare market.

Link to article in Irish Times here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/solas-living-pays-40m-for-157-homes-across-dublin-and-kildare-1.4530153

As Killian Woods said recently this is now the preferred model and who could blame them its completely fool proof especially when inflation linked or as one developer put it "as good as a government bond"

There's endless stories about funds directly targeting the leasing game, the likes of Eddie Hobbs and his ilk jumping on this should really be the canary in the coalmine for us!

8000 homes were acquired on lease deals last year

The_Conductor · 07-04-2021 09:59AM

timmyntc wrote: »

Must be a nice little money-spinner setting up an AHB.
The very fact that so many companies are chomping at the bit to lease properties to the state tells you something is very wrong.

It tells you that the state has set their willingness to pay prices at levels which are so far out of kilter with the actual market- that it is a simple money making machine for Solas (and the growing number of similar companies).

The PAC (and/or other bodies who actually have the power to dictate what is and what is not reasonable expenditure of public funds)- needs to urgently assess all these agreements that local authorities (and others) are coming up with.

fliball123 · 07-04-2021 10:04AM

The_Conductor wrote: »

It tells you that the state has set their willingness to pay prices at levels which are so far out of kilter with the actual market- that it is a simple money making machine for Solas (and the growing number of similar companies).

The PAC (and/or other bodies who actually have the power to dictate what is and what is not reasonable expenditure of public funds)- needs to urgently assess all these agreements that local authorities (and others) are coming up with.

This is what happens when the tail wags the dog. The lefties are pushing this agenda and without adequate knowledge or man power to actually build housing. The govenement are going down this route. Its crazy stuff and PAC like any other body are just a pack of nodding dogs once their wage and pensions are fine its nothing to see here. I heard this on newstalk this morning and it was spun in a positive way more housing for the underprivileged. The really depressing thing is FF/FG are far more right leaning (but still learning to the left) than SF god knows what the sinners will do.

PropQueries · 07-04-2021 10:12AM

The_Conductor wrote: »

It tells you that the state has set their willingness to pay prices at levels which are so far out of kilter with the actual market- that it is a simple money making machine for Solas (and the growing number of similar companies).

The PAC (and/or other bodies who actually have the power to dictate what is and what is not reasonable expenditure of public funds)- needs to urgently assess all these agreements that local authorities (and others) are coming up with.

It does beg the question. If you’re buying your first home, whether it’s a new build, a second hand home or a home that’s in need of refurbishment, who are you really bidding against?

Is it really such a conspiracy theory anymore to state the obvious, in many cases anyway?

timmyntc · 07-04-2021 10:13AM

fliball123 wrote: »

This is what happens when the tail wags the dog. The lefties are pushing this agenda and without adequate knowledge or man power to actually build housing. The govenement are going down this route. Its crazy stuff and PAC like any other body are just a pack of nodding dogs once their wage and pensions are fine its nothing to see here. I heard this on newstalk this morning and it was spun in a positive way more housing for the underprivileged. The really depressing thing is FF/FG are far more right leaning (but still learning to the left) than SF god knows what the sinners will do.

Its not a "left" thing, its a corporatist/neoliberal thing.
Contracting out states functions to private companies will always end up with private companies taking the piss.

We see it all the time with govt tenders - bid low, get the tender, ask for more money.
Provision of social housing is following the same idea now.

State should build and manage its own stock, AHBs should not be engaged with.

RichardAnd · 07-04-2021 10:15AM

Browney7 wrote: »

They would from a pension fund/reit who manages to get the state to agree to a bulk lease on the enhanced leasing scheme with annual CPI increases for 25 years that gives a "discount" on market rent. Or else the REIT with access to money at near 0% will buy the whole block and use it as a way to park money and lease out a few apartments to corporates.

It seems the state is putting a minimum value on rents by use of leasing schemes and HAP and also propping up values via part V.

It seems to me that the state, and not just the Irish one, is working towards a long-term plan where by ownership of property is simply beyond the average worker. The state should not have that kind of power.

fliball123 · 07-04-2021 10:20AM

timmyntc wrote: »

Its not a "left" thing, its a corporatist/neoliberal thing.
Contracting out states functions to private companies will always end up with private companies taking the piss.

We see it all the time with govt tenders - bid low, get the tender, ask for more money.
Provision of social housing is following the same idea now.

State should build and manage its own stock, AHBs should not be engaged with.

Sorry it is a left thing the capitalists(REITS/vultures) have just seen an opportunity where they can make a good guaranteed return be under no illusion this is the work of those looking for free housing for everyone brigade. The government have not got the wherewithal to build that skillset died back in the 80s/90s when developers could just pay a certain amount not to build any corpo gaffs in their developments so fast forward to 2021 we have a severe deficit of usable housing stock and in order to appease the so called welfare class they are panicking buying sh1te like this and renting from the above capitalists. This is also a result an unforeseen consequence of the small landlord leaving the market as the the REITS and vultures can now leave property vacant keeping rents high where as a small landlord would of had to adjust prices in order to keep cashflow coming in.

MacronvFrugals · 07-04-2021 10:22AM

Who gave them a taste of the so called treasure island?

PropQueries · 07-04-2021 10:40AM

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry it is a left thing the capitalists(REITS/vultures) have just seen an opportunity where they can make a good guaranteed return be under no illusion this is the work of those looking for free housing for everyone brigade. The government have not got the wherewithal to build that skillset died back in the 80s/90s when developers could just pay a certain amount not to build any corpo gaffs in their developments so fast forward to 2021 we have a severe deficit of usable housing stock and in order to appease the so called welfare class they are panicking buying sh1te like this and renting from the above capitalists. This is also a result an unforeseen consequence of the small landlord leaving the market as the the REITS and vultures can now leave property vacant keeping rents high where as a small landlord would of had to adjust prices in order to keep cashflow coming in.

Have small landlords left the market? When the councils sign those long-term lease agreements, the council is down as the landlord for the duration of the lease in many cases i.e. we’re “officially” down a “landlord” but not a rental property.

fliball123 · 07-04-2021 10:45AM

PropQueries wrote: »

Have small landlords left the market? When the councils sign those long-term lease agreements, the council is down as the landlord for the duration of the lease in many cases i.e. we’re “officially” down a “landlord” but not a rental property.

Do you deny that small landlords have been leaving its common knowledge

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/small-private-landlords-are-quitting-in-their-droves-says-seller-of-glenageary-house-1.4089315

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/herald/news/pressure-to-increase-on-renters-as-17000-landlords-quit-the-market-39248586.html

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/smaller-investors-flee-the-landlord-market-as-cuckoo-funds-up-ante-38516029.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30940336.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/7sdtbp/why_are_landlords_leaving_the_market_in_large/

They have been leaving for the last 5 years

Ozark707 · 07-04-2021 10:46AM

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

There's not a hope in hell they would! Sure that's why 4/5ths of apartments in Clancy Quay are vacant and this was pre-Covid also

Clancy Quay? Is that in the new block down there? I would have been surprised it was that high. I thought it was the Capital Dock building that was the one which had over a 50% vacancy level.

MacronvFrugals · 07-04-2021 10:54AM

Ozark707 wrote: »

Clancy Quay? Is that in the new block down there? I would have been surprised it was that high. I thought it was the Capital Dock building that was the one which had over a 50% vacancy level.

A detailed analysis of the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB) register by the Business Post has shown nearly four-fifths of the 246 apartments in phase three of Clancy Quay in Dublin 8 are empty.

Nearly half of the apartments in Capital Dock, a 190-apartment, 22-storey built-to-let tower in Dublin’s Docklands are also vacant....

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/hundreds-of-luxury-apartments-controlled-by-us-fund-lie-vacant-in-capital-7993e066

RichardAnd · 07-04-2021 10:55AM

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry it is a left thing the capitalists(REITS/vultures) have just seen an opportunity where they can make a good guaranteed return be under no illusion this is the work of those looking for free housing for everyone brigade. The government have not got the wherewithal to build that skillset died back in the 80s/90s when developers could just pay a certain amount not to build any corpo gaffs in their developments so fast forward to 2021 we have a severe deficit of usable housing stock and in order to appease the so called welfare class they are panicking buying sh1te like this and renting from the above capitalists. This is also a result an unforeseen consequence of the small landlord leaving the market as the the REITS and vultures can now leave property vacant keeping rents high where as a small landlord would of had to adjust prices in order to keep cashflow coming in.

I think it's a bit of a combination. The desire to provide social housing is certainly a leftist ambition, but corporations buying up property en-mass reeks of neo-liberalism/globalism.

Something that I've noticed over the years is that neo-libs are extremely good at using leftists to push their own agenda. Ironic, some would say.

PropQueries · 07-04-2021 10:55AM

fliball123 wrote: »

Do you deny that small landlords have been leaving its common knowledge

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/small-private-landlords-are-quitting-in-their-droves-says-seller-of-glenageary-house-1.4089315

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/herald/news/pressure-to-increase-on-renters-as-17000-landlords-quit-the-market-39248586.html

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/smaller-investors-flee-the-landlord-market-as-cuckoo-funds-up-ante-38516029.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30940336.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/7sdtbp/why_are_landlords_leaving_the_market_in_large/

They have been leaving for the last 5 years

In 2020 we had c. 165k registered private landlords and in 2016, we had c. 175k according to the RTB.

How many long-term lease agreements have been signed by the councils over that period?

2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

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2021 Irish Property Market chat - mod warnings post 1