Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward

CramCycle · 20-03-2021 9:51am

MOR316 wrote: »

Saw the clip on YT of Batman and Joker. Thought it was ****. Leto is terrible!! He in no way reminds of The Joker!

Having said that, if anyone points me in the direction to watch this, without Now TV or SKY, I'd be beautifully disgusted

I don't get the love for this scene either, for different reasons to you.

Without context of why Joker is so important for some reason, it reams of out and out stupidity, and a poor excuse for Leto and Ben to have a scene together even though I get their references, it just doesn't make sense in the movie or even as a spoiler. The inconsistencies as well, with the possible futures. I mean, I know it was Zacks plan but it is a really bad plan to say that if Lois dies he would become a crushing dictator, it just makes no sense. At least when they stuck to it being the anti life equation it kind of made sense but even then

I liked this version, but loads of people I know didn't. I do think watching it in 4:3, with massive borders for some reason, on an ipad seemed to help hide what everyone else was giving out about in regards colour etc. The scene we are talking about is obviously to set up a sequel and to be fair,

I'd watch that sequel but I think its trying to hint at a mix up Days of Future Past style movie with Flash and the multiverse, it will certainly appeal to a far smaller cohort of people than this did, which is possibly inflated by lockdown boredom as well.

Penn · 20-03-2021 9:59am

Coybig_ wrote: »

Pompous dialogue, particularly the Amazonian stuff, and that scene where the schoolgirl made the comment to Diana was truly cringe inducing. Speaking of that scene, Snyder continues with his fetish for heroes needlessly destroying things when Diana explodes a brick wall for no reason with no idea of the safety of the police below.

There's also the fact that Diana clearly showed she can move incredibly quickly. The guy in the bowler hat was reloading. Diana could easily have thrown him against the wall, lasso-ed him to question him if there are other groups like his, or otherwise disabled him or restrained him for the police in any way, shape or form.

Instead she obliterated him using a power that can seriously damage actual gods, blowing out the side of the building, and then a 15 year old girl is like "Can I be like you some day?"

Christ after seeing that the girl is more likely to become a terrorist like the guy in the hat than be like Wonder Woman.

Penn · 20-03-2021 10:03am

CramCycle wrote: »

The inconsistencies as well, with the possible futures. I mean, I know it was Zacks plan but it is a really bad plan to say that if Lois dies he would become a crushing dictator, it just makes no sense. At least when they stuck to it being the anti life equation it kind of made sense but even then

I think I read that Lois dying is what makes Superman succumb to the anti-life equation and so from there he's under Darkseid's control, rather than Lois dying turning him into a dictator. I'm not 100% on what the anti-life equation stuff is though, that's just what I read elsewhere, I think in the screenshots someone posted previously of Snyder's original plans for all his JL films.

CramCycle · 20-03-2021 10:20am

Penn wrote: »

I think I read that Lois dying is what makes Superman succumb to the anti-life equation and so from there he's under Darkseid's control, rather than Lois dying turning him into a dictator. I'm not 100% on what the anti-life equation stuff is though, that's just what I read elsewhere, I think in the screenshots someone posted previously of Snyder's original plans for all his JL films.

It's basically a version of the perspective machine from a Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy, you realise how pointless everything is and you basically give up freewill. In the DC universe though, you don't go mad, you give up freewill and let yourself be controlled by whoever showed it to you but it has changed so many times in the comics it really means nothing other than a plot device at this point which can take any form. In this movie it was implied that the Earth itself has the anti life equation etched into it (what you see when Steppenwolf and Darkseid hit the ground). My issue was that in the Joker/Bats scene, it seemed different, like it wasn't the antilife equation, Supes was just an absolute c***. I presume the crux of the Jokers point was Allen or someone else keeps resetting time and messing it up everytime when he brings Bats along for the ride. Maybe Joker holds his memories or something as he seems to know more than he should, maybe that is his use, but even that is a jump straight out of House of M and Wolverine, and why Joker could do it, who knows.

20-03-2021 10:31am

I was actually enjoying it some extent but I hit the two hour mark last night and started to just lose interest. It's like a lot of movies packed into one and it's very inconsistent. Stopped watching and not sure if I'll continue tbh.

techdiver · 20-03-2021 10:47am

I find subjectivity very interesting. For me I can't understand how anyone would think this is a bad movie or boring, but on the other side there are universally liked movies that I'm a bit meh about. Suppose it's like everything in life.

If I think about it more my understanding improves if I apply that thinking to other things in life. I suppose if you take a food analogy. There are "safe" foods that everybody (well the vast majority) enjoy and then there are other foods that are divisive.

To take the example if Marvel and DC. I love the Marvel movies but recognise them as "safe" movies. Formulaic but enjoyable. They are the "chicken" of movies. Snyder's DC movies are more like olives or steak tartare. I hate olives and love steak tartare but fully understand that others are the opposite.

Penn · 20-03-2021 11:00am

techdiver wrote: »

I find subjectivity very interesting. For me I can't understand how anyone would think this is a bad movie or boring, but on the other side there are universally liked movies that I'm a bit meh about. Suppose it's like everything in life.

If I think about it more my understanding improves if I apply that thinking to other things in life. I suppose if you take a food analogy. There are "safe" foods that everybody (well the vast majority) enjoy and then there are other foods that are divisive.

To take the example if Marvel and DC. I love the Marvel movies but recognise them as "safe" movies. Formulaic but enjoyable. They are the "chicken" of movies. Snyder's DC movies are more like olives or steak tartare. I hate olives and love steak tartare but fully understand that others are the opposite.

I think as it stands, for me it's a decent, enjoyable movie. Could have been a good movie if edited down to 3 hours for a theatrical release. But I doubt it ever would have been a great movie or gotten some of the praise it's getting now if not for the Whedon version. It's incredibly rare to be able to have such a comparable measuring stick to judge a film against, and the fact the Snyder version is much better by comparison I think is making it seem better than it actually is.

It has some fantastic moments, set pieces and visuals. It's far more coherent and cohesive than the Whedon version. And a lot of the humour is subtle enough to be enjoyable without being as in-your-face as Marvel can be, or again the Whedon version of JL. But I'd still find it hard to rank ZSJL as anything above being decent and enjoyable.

senordingdong · 20-03-2021 11:18am

I've finally finished it and have to say I am not blown away. Much of the criticisms I've seen levelled so far have been accurate in regards to hype, cult status and the 'avatar syndrom'.

I found that much of the added scenes were either pointless, or setting up other movies. The extension of the wonder woman London scene added nothing and the stupidity of her

disposing of a bomb, then creating an explosion to kill one man was daft.

Also, an entire scene in the first act of Willem Dafoe telling Arthur to take up his rightful position...cutting that, and the whole character doesn't seem so bad now considering the second act has a scene where meera tells Arthur to take up his rightful position. This extra fleshing out only makes sense for setting up an aquaman film, which we should have have had before this film was made.

Victor was definitely redeemed and explains fisher being so vocal, but Barry Allen came off the worse in my opinion. His new setup scene added very little and there was clearly alot of time and money put into it.
The core problems of the wheadon cut remain, too many characters and other movies to establish.

What's more, when details of the Whedon reshoots came to light, I presumed much of the corny, contrived humour was his but alot of that remains, which still doesn't gel well with the rest.

I wanted DCEU to continue after this and I thought Snyder did a great job with the niche subject matter of bvs, but I don't think we should see the Snyder verse continued. I understand that WB played a big part in this too.

The cgi was poor in alot of places but I appreciate the team had an impossible task. But the, the effort that was put into cyborg and steppenwolf was excessive and added nothing. Also I agree with another poster that steppenwolf looked like a concept drawing for Michael bays Megatron.

In summary, I agree that this film is better than 2017 but that wasn't going to be hard. And I also agree that there was a good three hour movie here, if the establishing of new characters and sequels had been done elsewhere.

The White Wolf · 20-03-2021 11:25am

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Just watched it in one sitting, didn't move off the sofa once...so let me preface this by saying I'm a massive Marvel/MCU fan.

That was better than Endgame.

Brain off, enjoy a few hours of whatever Snyder wanted to throw at us... And wow it delivered.

Bar Endgame have possibly the best scene of the genre I'd say both films are on equal level.

I found the CGI to be a mixed bag in this film but not outright terrible like some feel. I mean the scene where Desaad dismisses Steppenwolf by telling him he owes 50,000 more worlds, the expression and emotion on Steppenwolf's face is excellently realised. Then there's Cyborg's vision where Darkseid has his hand on Superman's shoulder and it looks brutal.

Having said that given the amount of pressure the FX teams were on I think they should be commended what they produced ultimately. The good outweighs the bad for me.

kerplun k · 20-03-2021 11:31am

Very enjoyable and I’m delighted for Snyder.
He got to release the film he wanted and it’s been well received,

Hopefully he leaves on a high now and leaves WB to it.

We don’t need the JL trilogy. For me, the open ended nature adds to the closure and enjoyment of ZSs trilogy of MoS, BvSuc and ZSJL.

It’s a good comic book ending. The world is safe for now, but other threats are looming. I can play the Apokolips, Darkseid, evil Superman stuff in my head without further exploring this in film.

SMC92Ian · 20-03-2021 1:34pm

If we weren't in a lockdown I wonder how well this would of went down.

kerplun k · 20-03-2021 2:09pm

If we weren’t in lockdown I don’t think this would have seen the light of day.

The White Wolf · 20-03-2021 2:18pm

Lockdown or no lockdown HBO Max still needed some major exposure and it seems that the wheels were in motion before the pandemic anyway.

At one point WB weren't releasing their entire 2021 slate on the service so there was a lot riding on the SC.

senordingdong · 20-03-2021 5:45pm

Anyone think this will ignite interest in the Ayer cut of Suicide Squad?

pixelburp · 20-03-2021 5:49pm

Watched the first hour, and ... well. I kinda don't know what to say really. No doubt this will be dissected for years to come, and act as a rallying cry for every agrieved fan, yearning for cuts of films. The first hour went exactly how I thought it was going to, and so scarcely experienced anything I'd have called enjoyment. I never liked the Synderverse / murderverse to begin with so was never expecting this to change my mind. I mean for sure, it was (so far) a significant improvement on the 2017 version, but really what does that say? Not a lot, given the theatrical film's shoddy state.

My only other thoughts circled around a few moments:

- You know what? I preferred the 2017 opening; the "cry heard across the world" was overwrought - even for Synder.
- I had forgotten Synder made the choice to have Gotham and Metropolis exist across a bay/inlet/channel from each other. I suspect that was some kind of Ying, Yang metaphor, born from each city's most famous costumed residents. It still sucks IMO.
- It was often obscured by shadow, but of course Synder's Amazonian warriors wore metal bikinis. It's a tiny thing in the scheme of things but can really highlight the different attitudes two separate creatives can have towards the same idea.
- To the murderverse point, whatever about Bats & Supes, Wonder Woman's murder spree during her big "intro" fight felt especially egregious; most likely because the Patty Jenkins films - especially the sequel - made pains to show Diana as fundamentally non-violent and inspirational. Oh boy, not here. Splat, went the skulls, CGI(?) blood n' all.
- No amount of slow motion & colour grading can hide Ben Affleck's utter disinterest in the role at this point.

Mark Hamill · 20-03-2021 6:02pm

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

They were singing because they saw him as a god and were bidding him farewell.

It was still really weird and didn't really fit in with anything else in the movie, especially Aquaman.

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

"A random guy" caressed a strange woman's head before rescuing her in the middle of a car crash so there is equal opportunities creepiness.

That is true I guess.

CramCycle · 20-03-2021 6:05pm

To be fair to Flash, I thought that was a really smart assessment of his speed. He has to be so gentle or he would literally kill them or rip them apart. He acts the same throughout the movie. As for the jumper bit, a person sniffing a jumper of what they perceive as a god isnt hugely different than the way some people hold memorabilia at a rock concert. Wouldn't do it myself but I think people are reaching for something that isn't there.

event · 20-03-2021 6:46pm

Kirby wrote: »

I think this is an Avatar thing. People swept up in the cultural event of something. A few months or a year down the line people are going to look back on this and wonder why they rated it so highly. At least some will.

This is fairly condescending.

"I am right, you are all wrong. In a few months or a year you will come around to my point on view and realise I was right"

ThePott · 20-03-2021 7:07pm

event wrote: »

This is fairly condescending.

"I am right, you are all wrong. In a few months or a year you will come around to my point on view and realise I was right"

It's an opinion, you don't have to share it. Same way he doesn't have to share the opinion that the film is any good.

TheLocalMan · 20-03-2021 7:08pm

Joker was honestly pretty great imo. He got under Bruce's skin.

Coybig_ · 20-03-2021 7:09pm

As someone whose scathing comments regarding the first hour can be read two pages back (truly awful) this definitely improves from there. Watched up to part 6 so far and somewhat enjoyed parts 3/4/5.

TheLocalMan · 20-03-2021 7:12pm

Also the Singing maidens in Part 1, made me think it was Batman meets The Wicker Man.

innuendo141 · 20-03-2021 7:16pm

Penn wrote: »

There's also the fact that Diana clearly showed she can move incredibly quickly. The guy in the bowler hat was reloading. Diana could easily have thrown him against the wall, lasso-ed him to question him if there are other groups like his, or otherwise disabled him or restrained him for the police in any way, shape or form.

Instead she obliterated him using a power that can seriously damage actual gods, blowing out the side of the building, and then a 15 year old girl is like "Can I be like you some day?"

Christ after seeing that the girl is more likely to become a terrorist like the guy in the hat than be like Wonder Woman.

Couldn't get over this myself. It was violence for the sake of violence at the expense of the only character who has seen proper development with her own solo movie (up to this point).

pixelburp · 20-03-2021 7:24pm

innuendo141 wrote: »

Couldn't get over this myself. It was violence for the sake of violence at the expense of the only character who has seen proper development with her own solo movie (up to this point).

I actually wonder how Jenkins might feel about all this. This film happened after the two WW films that made pains to show Diana as peaceful but fierce. Love it or hate the shopping mall scene in WW84 showed her as a hero for all ages. Synder went out of his way to invert that, almost calling to attention the blood stained walls in that London museum. If that WW sequel wasn't so polar I'd question if there might have been more backlash. Were I Jenkins I might feel a little offended.

The White Wolf · 20-03-2021 8:02pm

pixelburp wrote: »

I actually wonder how Jenkins might feel about all this. This film happened after the two WW films that made pains to show Diana as peaceful but fierce. Love it or hate the shopping mall scene in WW84 showed her as a hero for all ages. Synder went out of his way to invert that, almost calling to attention the blood stained walls in that London museum. If that WW sequel wasn't so polar I'd question if there might have been more backlash. Were I Jenkins I might feel a little offended.

But that Wonder Woman scene was filmed and set in stone way before anything Jenkins did on WW84 so I don't see how Snyder went out of his way to do anything. To my recollection as well Jenkins and Snyder are friends. She's at least been vocal in her support for Snyder while other directors in the DCEU have stayed silent.

As for the violence of the scene itself, we know at this stage Snyder likes to put his heroes in no easy way out scenarios. She had 17 seconds to prevent mass murder of children so I wasn't too cut up myself about she despatched of the terrorists.

pixelburp · 20-03-2021 8:12pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

But that Wonder Woman scene was filmed and set in stone way before anything Jenkins did on WW84 so I don't see how Snyder went out of his way to do anything. To my recollection as well Jenkins and Snyder are friends. She's at least been vocal in her support for Snyder while other directors in the DCEU have stayed silent.

As for the violence of the scene itself, we know at this stage Snyder likes to put his heroes in no easy way out scenarios. She had 17 seconds to prevent mass murder of children so I wasn't too cut up myself about she despatched of the terrorists.

I meant the Synder Cut, specifically. Wonder woman was the standout success from the great DC experiment (alongside Aquaman, who'd have thought it) so having a film released, after the fact of 2 WW films, revert to a bloodier version of Gadots character, was jarring to me. I knew going in this was a R rated film, but was still surprised they made it as bloody as it was. Like, any of these heroes can kill, and half the bloodless fights would still break the bones of any normal human, but after the sunshine of W84, this had a bit of tonal whiplash for me. But then I had more time for that sequel than most around here

Bar Logan, I can't immediately think of another superhero film that had both PG13 funtimes and a R rated version. All these films though require suspension of disbelief when it comes to the physics of battle. We just don't usually see any jam

SMC92Ian · 20-03-2021 8:43pm

innuendo141 wrote: »

Couldn't get over this myself. It was violence for the sake of violence at the expense of the only character who has seen proper development with her own solo movie (up to this point).

But that's a Snyder movie, dark and brooding for the sake of it. He makes stuff aimed for those emo teens who wan't a "dark" superhero film.

Just because Marvel had jokes and daylight does not make it not dark. I'd say IW and Endgame were themeatically way darker than anything Snyder has done.

pixelburp · 20-03-2021 8:52pm

The weird thing is, Synder comes across a smiling, friendly and enthusiastic guy so the fact his serious movies are always so overwrought and brooding disappoints. He tries too hard, and doesn't pull it off either, and I daresay he'd have more plaudits if he just had some lightweight fun every now and again. I'm looking forward to his zombie heist movie - mostly cos I love a good heist movie TBH - because it looks like he might finally step away from the self-serious mood for 5 minutes.

Lithium93_ · 20-03-2021 9:03pm

pixelburp wrote: »

The weird thing is, Synder comes across a smiling, friendly and enthusiastic guy so the fact his serious movies are always so overwrought and brooding disappoints. He tries too hard, and doesn't pull it off either, and I daresay he'd have more plaudits if he just had some lightweight fun every now and again. I'm looking forward to his zombie heist movie - mostly cos I love a good heist movie TBH - because it looks like he might finally step away from the self-serious mood for 5 minutes.

Apparently he's delighted with ALL aspects of Army Of The Dead, according to an interview with Entertainment Weekly. Make of it what you will.

Army is all done, I'm super proud and happy. I think it came out amazing. I can't wait for fans to get a chance to see it. The new trailer is coming soon, I think in the middle of April. I've had a great experience with Netflix and the cast and crew. Shooting of the film was probably my most joyful cinematic experience as far as production goes.

Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

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Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward