Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward

TheLocalMan · 19-03-2021 06:42PM

Whedon is a ****ing scumbag.

SMC92Ian · 19-03-2021 08:11PM

Penn wrote: »

I do (or at least did) like Whedon, but I do think that accusation or implication is harsh. Cyborg has a lot of focus in this movie, which means for Whedon to bring the movie in at 2 hours, Cyborg's role would have had to have been stripped back. That obviously means the roles of his parents stripped back too. It's a pretty reasonable knock-on effect.

Ryan Choi's scenes added nothing and probably would have been mostly cut even if Snyder himself was trying to edit it down to a 3 hour movie for theatrical release (like with Jena Malone's scenes in BvS), and Iris West's car crash not only adds very little but is also the worst scene in the entire movie imo.
That car crash made no goddamn sense even by the metric of aliens and mother boxes. Her car was about 50m from the junction. She was driving slowly. The garbage man not looking where he was going because he was trying to pick his burger off the floor of his truck was irrelevant considering she crashed into the back of him because after 40m of pulling out from her parking spot and driving slowly past the pet shop checking out Barry, her car took off like a goddamn rocket ship in the last 10m even with her trying to brake, hitting the garbage truck with enough force that her car barrel-rolls about 100m down the street and explodes. I mean whatever about the music of the scene which was horrible, or the IMAX slow-mo shot of a f*cking sesame seed... that car crash was ludicrous. Almost 2 days after seeing the movie and it's still the part I think about the most. So Whedon cutting that scene... Yup. That was a good move.

I think there is definitely a lot to criticise Whedon for, especially if the general accusations of the cast (particularly Ray Fisher) are correct. But to try make a 2-hour movie out of what Snyder had done, I can see the reasons behind reducing or cutting some of those roles.

That crash scene was pointless and stupid, same for a lot of the slow mo bits, Aquaman Loreal slow motion water commercial section... I didn't hate the film but people acting like this is an amazing work of art I find are insane... I'm missing something. I didn't hate the other JL either, it was bad but I found some scenes enjoyable. Same for this. This could easily be cut into 2 and a half hours.

SMC92Ian · 19-03-2021 08:25PM

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The White Wolf · 19-03-2021 08:32PM

I got a kick out of Ares and Zeus hammering Darkseid in the flashback. I took that to mean the Old Gods beat the New Gods in a fair fight.

You could see Steppenwolf feared them as well given he could see Old God blood in Diana.

pjohnson · 19-03-2021 08:44PM

silverharp wrote: »

Whedon seems to getting a bit of heat , optics and all that

https://twitter.com/AustinPlanet/status/1372706400086921216

What rubbish. Whatever Whedons issue he had to halve the content of the movie. Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman were the "big three" so would naturally command a large chunk of time. Given Aquaman was the next DCEU movie they wanted to give him an intro.

So that only leaves Cyborg and Flash as expendable. Flash provides quips so that was gunna make him a unique character and Whedon loves to inject humour. Therefore Cyborg was the one had to loose most of his arc due to those timing issues, and even at that they still cut down a lot of Batman material (completely removing Joker in the process).

Cyborgs arc reduced then what purpose does his family have being included?

CramCycle · 19-03-2021 08:50PM

SMC92Ian wrote: »

That crash scene was pointless and stupid, same for a lot of the slow mo bits, Aquaman Loreal slow motion water commercial section... I didn't hate the film but people acting like this is an amazing work of art I find are insane... I'm missing something. I didn't hate the other JL either, it was bad but I found some scenes enjoyable. Same for this. This could easily be cut into 2 and a half hours.

Agree about the amazing work of art bit. I enjoyed it more than JL, and unlike you I hated that but more to do with the really poor CGI taking you out of it. Even funnier the complaints I had about it were ones aimed solely at Zack I presumed, but for the most part they were Whedon. This makes it clear there was room for a not great but not terrible movie with what he had, maybe 2.5hours long. Whedons reshoot made a poor film worse. If I was Cyborg, whether racism or whatever, he clearly edited the movie to make him look sh1t or Whedon was really incompetent. Anyway, it's a great movie for casual comic book fans, it's a tolerable movie for most, and no matter what anyone says, it's far better than the original release, regardless of whether you thought it was good or bad, but that's not really a fair review and I shouldn't compare them.

Penn · 19-03-2021 09:00PM

pjohnson wrote: »

What rubbish. Whatever Whedons issue he had to halve the content of the movie. Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman were the "big three" so would naturally command a large chunk of time. Given Aquaman was the next DCEU movie they wanted to give him an intro.

So that only leaves Cyborg and Flash as expendable. Flash provides quips so that was gunna make him a unique character and Whedon loves to inject humour. Therefore Cyborg was the one had to loose most of his arc due to those timing issues, and even at that they still cut down a lot of Batman material (completely removing Joker in the process).

Cyborgs arc reduced then what purpose does his family have being included?

The Joker bit actually wasn't in Snyder's original version at all. That was the main thing he decided to add when he was brought back to finish his version of it. Read an interview where they said it was filmed just a few months ago, November or December I think. Most of them didn't even film together, Affleck and Leto filmed on different days. Ezra Miller even had to be filmed on green screen on the Fantastic Beasts 3 set because he couldn't make it back to America to shoot it.

pjohnson · 19-03-2021 09:03PM

Penn wrote: »

The Joker bit actually wasn't in Snyder's original version at all. That was the main thing he decided to add when he was brought back to finish his version of it. Read an interview where they said it was filmed just a few months ago, November or December I think. Most of them didn't even film together, Affleck and Leto filmed on different days. Ezra Miller even had to be filmed on green screen on the Fantastic Beasts 3 set because he couldn't make it back to America to shoot it.

I coulda sworn that Leto was supposed to be in the OG Justice League? Maybe not these scenes but some involvement?

johnny_ultimate · 19-03-2021 09:06PM

Penn wrote: »

The Joker bit actually wasn't in Snyder's original version at all. That was the main thing he decided to add when he was brought back to finish his version of it. Read an interview where they said it was filmed just a few months ago, November or December I think. Most of them didn't even film together, Affleck and Leto filmed on different days. Ezra Miller even had to be filmed on green screen on the Fantastic Beasts 3 set because he couldn't make it back to America to shoot it.

Still amazed this film has a 15-minute glorified teaser trailer tacked on literally after the film cuts to black but before the credits roll.

Lithium93_ · 19-03-2021 09:10PM

I actually enjoyed how the film showcased what Barry can actually do, in comparison to the rest of the team. Much better than the quick and easy he's fast explainer given in the theatrical release.

Granted that same line was used in Snyder's version too.

Penn · 19-03-2021 09:18PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Still amazed this film has a 15-minute glorified teaser trailer tacked on literally after the film cuts to black but before the credits roll.

I see it as Snyder sticking two fingers up at WB by doing a Jim Bowen and telling the audience "Let's have a look at what you could have won..."

Penn · 19-03-2021 09:23PM

pjohnson wrote: »

I coulda sworn that Leto was supposed to be in the OG Justice League? Maybe not these scenes but some involvement?

Not sure. I think Snyder said he planned for Leto to be involved eventually, in Justice League 2. I don't think anything with him was filmed by Snyder originally for this movie though. Maybe I'm wrong though and there was a different version of this Knightmare scene, and they decided to rewrite and reshoot it for this version.

The White Wolf · 19-03-2021 09:38PM

The most enticing thing about the Knightmare scene was the Batman/Joker interaction. You could buy that Bruce was giving everything not to kill this guy which is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, aspect of their relationship in the comics.

You felt a threat here that wasn't quite there in the TDK trilogy.

Tony EH · 19-03-2021 09:51PM

Haven't seen this thing yet...but a 1.33:1 ratio?

WTF?

Drumpot · 19-03-2021 11:04PM

Watched it again there, really think it’s class and gets better on repeat viewing as there’s so much in it and I was knackered watching it on weds!

Watched it on a widescreen version but I can’t say I was too bothered by the other version so didn’t really make much of a difference to me.

Wasn’t as disappointed on second viewing with the score but I still think it’s weaker then the previous Snyder movies with zimmer.

The chapters work really well and I think there was at least one really enjoyable moment in each chapter. I actually really loved the opening sequence with

superman’s death scream “ringing the bell”

as Lex put it in BvS. It was really eerie and quite haunting.

The fleshing out of the other characters was so satisfying and made them way More then props, they were integral to the hero’s challange. I also think Snyder didn’t over do it when he actually had an R rating and could of really gone mad with the gore and cursing. I will be watching this again at some stage, it’s a home run from Snyder.

johnny_ultimate · 19-03-2021 11:10PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Watched it on a widescreen version

There's no widescreen version, though - that'd just be artificially blowing up the image and ruining the intended compositions in the process.

It's usually very easy to tell if a film is in an incorrect aspect ratio as the framing looks off and characters are often cut off or in worst case scenario entirely cut out.

The film's a 4:3 movie, and that's the way it's intended to be watched. Anything else - whether it's a first or rewatch - is wrong.

Yes, I am a bit of a purist about these things

SMC92Ian · 19-03-2021 11:14PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

There's no widescreen version, though - that'd just be artificially blowing up the image and ruining the intended compositions in the process.

It's usually very easy to tell if a film is in an incorrect aspect ratio as the framing looks off and characters are often cut off or in worst case scenario entirely cut out.

The film's a 4:3 movie, and that's the way it's intended to be watched. Anything else - whether it's a first or rewatch - is wrong.

Yes, I am a bit of a purist about these things

I cropped it and you miss nothing of value, the film is framed perfectly to work with widescreen and you know well the blu ray will be widescreen. He didn't even film it in IMAX, he didn't use IMAX cameras so the aspect ratio he is using is faked by he himself to make it seem like IMAX.

Drumpot · 19-03-2021 11:16PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

There's no widescreen version, though - that'd just be artificially blowing up the image and ruining the intended compositions in the process.

It's usually very easy to tell if a film is in an incorrect aspect ratio as the framing looks off and characters are often cut off or in worst case scenario entirely cut out.

The film's a 4:3 movie, and that's the way it's intended to be watched. Anything else - whether it's a first or rewatch - is wrong.

Yes, I am a bit of a purist about these things

Ah I’m not really fussy. I’ve seen it twice both in original and the “fake” widescreen version , if I don’t know the difference I don’t care! :pac:

I will go see it in cinema if it’s released in iMax.

Actually , one difference was that Zack Snyder spoke before the one I watched on weds night and he wasn’t on the other one I watched tonight.

CramCycle · 19-03-2021 11:22PM

Drumpot wrote: »

superman’s death scream “ringing the bell”
as Lex put it in BvS. It was really eerie and quite haunting.

That was actually a complaint I forgot about, how was his

death scream in a perfect plane, perpendicular to the horizon, that didn't dissipate with landmarks in the way. Bugged the sh1t out of me.

19-03-2021 11:30PM

So watching it and glad to say I'm enjoying it. It's biggest flaw is it's telling so many origin stories. They're good but they really disrupt the central plot I find.

Kirby · 19-03-2021 11:35PM

I'm normally in lockstep with most of pop culture but this is one of those situations where I genuinely think I'm an alien.....or the rest of the world is one.

I'm not quite sure where all the love is coming from in this. I watched it. It was still a poor film. You could argue that this cut is superior to the theatrical one but that argument falls flat when you realize it's over 4 hours long. There is so much fat to trim here it's insane.

Every scene with that Asian scientist fellow could be cut. They add nothing to the film and aren't necessary at all. I have a feeling they were teasing him as a future hero but this film is already so bloated it's a mistake.

The scenes with luther escaping and also him on the yacht with Deathstroke. What do they add? There is never going to be a sequel so what exactly is this doing in the film? The same could be said for the future batman dream sequence and also the martian manhunter scene.

Barry's scene saving, I assume, Iris. Okay. Apart from being a really poorly constructed setpiece....what's the point of it? She isn't important to the film and all the scene tells us is that he likes her and he's fast. Point one is irrelevant and point two is something we already know. This would be something you could stomach if the scene was shot well but it's not. And it's just another scene in a 4 hour movie that accomplishes nothing.

Was his goal to make a good film or to "stick it to WB" or some other nebulous concept? I don't get it. And why exactly does Aquaman need two separate scenes of meeting Bruce? It's not needed. Cut one of them.

I could go on but bloat aside this movie just doesn't hold the interest. It's paced oddly and has some really ridiculous exposition dumps between Steppenwolf and darkseid that don't add anything to THIS film. Setting up stuff we are never going to see is asinine.

I think this is an Avatar thing. People swept up in the cultural event of something. A few months or a year down the line people are going to look back on this and wonder why they rated it so highly. At least some will.

Tilikum17 · 19-03-2021 11:39PM

Just finished it there and I thought it was absolute rubbish. So much cgi ****e. Like every other marvel/dc movie. Lex Luther Is Gene Hackman......this lad is just awful.

Give me the old school superman 1 & 2 movies over any of this ****e.

Drumpot · 19-03-2021 11:47PM

CramCycle wrote: »

That was actually a complaint I forgot about, how was his
death scream in a perfect plane, perpendicular to the horizon, that didn't dissipate with landmarks in the way. Bugged the sh1t out of me.

In space nobody can hear you scream, unless it’s

superman’s death scream

Coybig_ · 20-03-2021 01:35AM

Part 1 done - Tonally its treated like it's Shakespeare when the script feels like it was written by a 10 year old.

A bunch of incoherent scenes which bare little relevance to what came before or after.

Pompous dialogue, particularly the Amazonian stuff, and that scene where the schoolgirl made the comment to Diana was truly cringe inducing. Speaking of that scene, Snyder continues with his fetish for heroes needlessly destroying things when Diana explodes a brick wall for no reason with no idea of the safety of the police below.

No wonder its four hours long when so much of it is these gratuitous slo-mo shots of truly awful cgi.

Laughably bad so far.

Midnight_EG · 20-03-2021 02:04AM

Just watched it in one sitting, didn't move off the sofa once...so let me preface this by saying I'm a massive Marvel/MCU fan.

That was better than Endgame.

Brain off, enjoy a few hours of whatever Snyder wanted to throw at us... And wow it delivered.

Mark Hamill · 20-03-2021 02:13AM

Do I need to spoiler this?

Did I watch a different movie to everyone else? This was terrible.

It was ugly as all hell. I don't mean the poor quality of the CG (I'm not judging it for given the circumstances), I'm talking stuff like the redesigns of Cyborg and Steppenwolf. Both look like rejected Michael Bay Transformers - way over designed with way too much going on. Cyborg also looks way more solid in the theatrical release. His legs and elbows are really light small looking hinges in this and it makes him look super rickety.
It was also very dark and super de-saturated, to a ridiculous level.

The acting was largely awful, from nearly everyone, but especially Affleck, Fisher and Gadot were all really flat (Fischer improved a little in the end I guess,

when he had his epiphany in the mother boxes, so maybe it was his acting direction

).

Everything was so dour and slow, not just in slow-mo, but dragged down with incessant brooding for brooding's sake. IMO it didn't feel terribly realistic that Cyborg

was only moody about loosing his humanity. I do like that he was a lot more fleshed out and his mother introduced. But given that his last act before his accident was crying about his father not coming to his game, his ongoing anger at his father should have been that he only seemed to want to be around him now that he was a science project. It would have made his father sacrifice, and the end of his father's tape, way more emotional.

A lot of the action scenes in the first have were cringy as hell. The Flash's saving of Iris has been discussed, but I found the extended parts of Wonder Woman opening action scene to be ridiculous as well. I actually found the biggest laugh to be when she first burst through the door and she blocks all the bullets with super speed, but the scene isn't slowed down so she just does it in fast forward, it looked so stupid.

Also, they used Wonder Woman's theme in a few parts, so why did they insist on using that goddamn woman's slow moaning song whenever Wonder Woman started to do something? It was painful.

The underground fight with Steppenwolf was somehow worse that the original version.

The best bit, where Flash admits he can't fight and Batman tells him to safe one person is gone. Cyborg and Flash just leave the fight for an extended period of time for no good reason. The people they are escorting are never attacked and would not have ended up in the one spot in danger of rubble if not for the Flash leading them there.

In general, I found Batmans fighting and choreography to be really weirdly clunky. He did not seem to be able to move effectively in his suit at all.

I will admit the entire ending scene at the reactor is a lot better. The set up, what the characters all do and Superman's reaction to Steppenwolf were good changes.

The White Wolf wrote: »

I got a kick out of Ares and Zeus hammering Darkseid in the flashback. I took that to mean the Old Gods beat the New Gods in a fair fight.

When you consider that Ares killed all of the other old Gods and Wonder Woman kills him, it kind of undermines the intimidation of Darkseid though.

Kirby wrote: »

Barry's scene saving, I assume, Iris. Okay. Apart from being a really poorly constructed setpiece....what's the point of it? She isn't important to the film and all the scene tells us is that he likes her and he's fast. Point one is irrelevant and point two is something we already know. This would be something you could stomach if the scene was shot well but it's not. And it's just another scene in a 4 hour movie that accomplishes nothing.

It's also heavily undermined by him repeatedly leering over Wonder Woman.

Kirby wrote: »

Was his goal to make a good film or to "stick it to WB" or some other nebulous concept? I don't get it. And why exactly does Aquaman need two separate scenes of meeting Bruce? It's not needed. Cut one of them.

That first scene between them was bizarre.

Why did those women come up and start singing in Batmans face when Aquaman left? I thought they were going to attack him. And could you imagine if at the end of Wonder Womans intro if some random guy picked up an item of her clothing and just started to smell it?

I'm sure there is more, but to end I will say the best scene in the original release was Superman turning his eye to follow Flash why he sped around. This version has that scene, which is good. What is bad is that the only other genuinely great scene added in this version, with effective and compelling character work and actions, is

Alfred hovering over Diana while she made tea.

MOR316 · 20-03-2021 03:07AM

Saw the clip on YT of Batman and Joker. Thought it was ****. Leto is terrible!! He in no way reminds of The Joker!

Having said that, if anyone points me in the direction to watch this, without Now TV or SKY, I'd be beautifully disgusted

The Phantom Pain · 20-03-2021 05:23AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

That first scene between them was bizarre.
Why did those women come up and start singing in Batmans face when Aquaman left? I thought they were going to attack him. And could you imagine if at the end of Wonder Womans intro if some random guy picked up an item of her clothing and just started to smell it?

They were singing because they saw him as a god and were bidding him farewell.

"A random guy" caressed a strange woman's head before rescuing her in the middle of a car crash so there is equal opportunities creepiness.

FortuneChip · 20-03-2021 09:20AM

People are definitely getting carried away with their praise of this.
It's an improvement on the theatrical cut, and credit to them for making that happen.

It's like a collection of some great scenes, and some inane stuff bridging them together.

I guess Steppenwolf has been improved, but he's still a big generic.

Darkseid's relationship with Steppenwolf isn't up to much though, he's in the movie to tease his big arrival in the next DCEU movie, and his motivations are near identical. The JL are trying to stop this guy from obtaining this thing that would bring about destruction, and he's working for another guy, that's trying to find this other thing, that I assume would bring about destruction.

As for the epilogue... If I was given an opportunity to right a wrong, I'd seek to do just that. Not spend a large portion of the movie trying to tease a sequel.

The rug-pulling final scenes are actually just annoying.

Lex & Deathstroke plotting the demise of Batman cutting into Batman working with Deathstroke in the very next scene (dream or otherwise).
Superman's return from the death to save the day, and minutes later he's evil.

There has been nothing but a couple of obscure hints to Batman and Joker in the DCEU, so their interaction has no context - I get the idea revolves around Robin, but within the movie we're given, it serves only as teaser content and get people wondering how they've come to be teamed up

It's all shoehorned in, and irrelevant.

Unless... Does he think by including this Knightmare, he can get #MakeTheSynderSequel trending?

Penn · 20-03-2021 09:47AM

FortuneChip wrote: »

Unless... Does he think by including this Knightmare, he can get #MakeTheSynderSequel trending?

#RestoreTheSnyderVerse was trending on Thursday, I think.

Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

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Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward