Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

Fionn1952 · 11-03-2021 12:12AM

Five Eighth wrote: »

As somebody who has only ever spent fleeting visits to Northern Ireland , I give way to your understanding of the Ulster-Scots people in the North-East of this island. My questions are how come they seem to honestly believe that their contrived majority in the six-counties is democratic? Also, they don't seem, at least to me, to accept that the Northern Ireland State was created by the threat of violence which emanated from Unionists headed by Carson and Craig. They vote in vast numbers for the DUP who canvassed for the hardest Brexit possible with the intention of distancing NI from Ireland. Having lived amongst the Unionist/Loyalist community do you honestly believe that they can be reasoned with on a practical level? Are they not, in essence, a different people to the Irish? Is the other poster (yagan) just calling it as it is?

Like I already alluded to earlier, there's still a strong degree of stopping Themmuns in politics in the North. They vote in vast numbers for the DUP to reduce SF control (much like the Nationalist community vote in vast numbers for SF to reduce DUP control.) It is strategic voting taken to its extreme, essentially a vote against one party rather than a vote for another, with two communities afraid to take the first step to some extent.

Also, once more speaking as a Republican who disagrees strongly with the idea of partition in the first place, their current majority IS democratic by definition since we all signed up to the GFA, and a damn sight more of them realise the circumstances on the foundation of the place than you might realise (it goes back to the assumption that because they vote for DUP and they hold those views it means they hold the same view, which I've highlighted doesn't hold).

There are nutters on both sides alright, but honestly most people just want to get on with their lives and the caricatured portrait doesn't help; ultimately that is a million people we want to be part of our country.

yagan · 11-03-2021 10:15AM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

There are nutters on both sides alright, but honestly most people just want to get on with their lives and the caricatured portrait doesn't help; ultimately that is a million people we want to be part of our country.

One wants NI to join a secular democracy, the other doesn't.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2021 10:49AM

yagan wrote: »

One wants NI to join a secular democracy, the other doesn't.

Do you have anything constructive to add or is it just going to be baseless generalisations?

10000maniacs · 11-03-2021 01:08PM

yagan wrote: »

We've have arrest of documentary makers uncovering collusion in the last few years.

The DUP oppose the GFA and the paras they engaged have now withdrawn from the peace process.

The DUP are voted in and their supporters know the DUP stance towards the democratic peace process.

It's an absolute fantasy to believe that the core of the unionist voter wants democracy. For them elections are just headcounts.

Demographics will soon change that and then god help them, they will have to campaign with smiles on their faces.
The next NI census which will take place in 2 weeks will be very interesting.
Another thing the DUP keep going on about is the tunnel between Larne and Scotland. Does anybody seriously think the English parliament is going to allocate £30 Billion to NI for that project. Cloud cuckoo land.

FrancieBrady · 11-03-2021 01:11PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Do you have anything constructive to add or is it just going to be baseless generalisations?

In fairness there is nothing baseless in saying the DUP do not want a secular society. Their religious fundamentalism drives much of their policy.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2021 01:13PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In fairness there is nothing baseless in saying the DUP do not want a secular society. Their religious fundamentalism drives much of their policy.

In fairness, he's been making snide and baseless generalisations about Unionists for the last few pages of this thread. On the same basis, I could pretend that Nationalists are pie-in-the-sky, Armalite-carrying thugs.

FrancieBrady · 11-03-2021 01:18PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In fairness, he's been making snide and baseless generalisations about Unionists for the last few pages of this thread. On the same basis, I could pretend that Nationalists are pie-in-the-sky, Armalite-carrying thugs.

You could, but can you 'pretend' that the DUP insist on their religious and cultural views informing public policy in a way that NO other party does?

I get the over generalising vagan is doing but he/she isn't wholly wrong.

yagan · 11-03-2021 01:19PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Do you have anything constructive to add or is it just going to be baseless generalisations?

Fact. The main unionist political party never signed up the Belfast agreement.

Do you contest that?

Fact. The paramilitary wing of unionism after consultation with the DUP declared last week that it was withdrawing from the Belfast Agreement.

Do you contest that?

BonnieSituation · 11-03-2021 01:21PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In fairness, he's been making snide and baseless generalisations about Unionists for the last few pages of this thread. On the same basis, I could pretend that Nationalists are pie-in-the-sky, Armalite-carrying thugs.

He's been fairly "snide" about belligerent unionists and DUPers. They were certainly not baseless though.

Let's not forget that the DUP met with the LCC just last week and then that very same organisation withdrew their support for the GFA later on and not a peep out of most.

DUP supporters are okay with voting for religious fundamentalists, but they can't complain when they are called out on it. There is a choice available. That they are standing with bigots and religious fundamentalists is on them no one else and certainly not yagan for criticising them for that.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2021 01:21PM

yagan wrote: »

Fact. The main unionist political party never signed up the Belfast agreement.

Do you contest that?

Fact. The paramilitary wing of unionism after consultation with the DUP declared last week that it was withdrawing from the Belfast Agreement.

Do you contest that?

Your posts were about Unionism and Unionists. Some evidence would be nice instead of the hysterics.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2021 01:22PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You could, but can you 'pretend' that the DUP insist on their religious and cultural views informing public policy in a way that NO other party does?

I get the over generalising vagan is doing but he/she isn't wholly wrong.

I have no interest in defending the DUP but deciding to incorporate an ethnic minority against their will while making snide generalisations along the way seems like a bad idea IMO.

FrancieBrady · 11-03-2021 01:26PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He's been fairly "snide" about belligerent unionists and DUPers. They were certainly not baseless though.

Let's not forget that the DUP met with the LCC just last week and then that very same organisation withdrew their support for the GFA later on and not a peep out of most.

DUP supporters are okay with voting for religious fundamentalists, but they can't complain when they are called out on it. There is a choice available. That they are standing with bigots and religious fundamentalists is on them no one else and certainly not yagan for criticising them for that.

What would be incredibly timely is the Irish government pointing the above out without antagonising. Instead of sectarian attacks on the representatives of Irish people who have to put up with it for decades.
The ordinary Unionist needs to be called out for this, just as ordinary nationalists are if they support fundamentalism and bigotry.

FrancieBrady · 11-03-2021 01:27PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I have no interest in defending the DUP but deciding to incorporate an ethnic minority against their will while making snide generalisations along the way seems like a bad idea IMO.

'Silence' is a form of defending. Voices need to be heard here, it isn't a time for silence.

BonnieSituation · 11-03-2021 01:28PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I have no interest in defending the DUP but deciding to incorporate an ethnic minority against their will while making snide generalisations along the way seems like a bad idea IMO.

Hold up.

You what now?

If a border poll passes it is not against anyone's will. This nonsense needs to stop. You're* either a democrat or not, you cannot have it both ways because it doesn't suit you* now.

The idea that the Irish State, in the event of a positive result for a border poll, will turn into Craig's 20s shower is just fanciful hysterics.

* obviously aimed at those who seek to undermine the GFA, not you specifically.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2021 01:28PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Silence' is a form of defending. Voices need to be heard here, it isn't a time for silence.

Are you calling out each and every death in Yemen? If not, why are you defending the Saudis?

yagan · 11-03-2021 01:30PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You could, but can you 'pretend' that the DUP insist on their religious and cultural views informing public policy in a way that NO other party does?

I get the over generalising vagan is doing but he/she isn't wholly wrong.

I think what's happening is that people in secular Ireland can't or don't want to appreciate how important religion still is in the unionist community. I guess this partly stems from the fact that while Irish society has progressed beyond its religious traditions to broad secularism since the 90s in Northern Ireland in some ways attitudes have hardened.

The Presbyterian Church of Ireland's recently voted to break with its sister church in Scotland over gay rights for instance.

yagan · 11-03-2021 01:32PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Your posts were about Unionism and Unionists. Some evidence would be nice instead of the hysterics.

YOu talk as if the DUP and it actions have nothing to do with Unionism in Northern Ireland.

There's way too much projecting onto them and not enough actually listening to what they say and do.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2021 01:35PM

yagan wrote: »

YOu talk as if the DUP and it actions have nothing to do with Unionism in Northern Ireland.

There's way too much projecting onto them and not enough actually listening to what they say and do.

That's a strawman. The DUP get elected by an unrepresentative voting system so that, in Westminster they end up as the main NI party.

yagan · 11-03-2021 01:58PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's a strawman. The DUP get elected by an unrepresentative voting system so that, in Westminster they end up as the main NI party.

I think you're not reading what I haven't written.

Point out where I was only talking about Westminster elections?

The largest unionist party in both the STV PR Stormont assembly, and the FPTP Westminster poll is the DUP.

Dismissing their voter base and what they say and do is disingenuous to discussing Northern Ireland.

I don't dismiss that there is a drift to the Alliance, but there's also a hardening with a drift to the TUV.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2021 02:01PM

yagan wrote: »

I think you're not reading what I haven't written.

Point out where I was only talking about Westminster elections?

The largest unionist party in both the STV PR Stormont assembly, and the FPTP Westminster poll is the DUP.

Dismissing their voter base and what they say and do is disingenuous to discussing Northern Ireland.

I don't dismiss that there is a drift to the Alliance, but there's also a hardening with a drift to the TUV.

I'll do so once you provide some evidence for your assertions about Unionists. Otherwise, there's no point in continuing this.

yagan · 11-03-2021 02:14PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'll do so once you provide some evidence for your assertions about Unionists. Otherwise, there's no point in continuing this.

Fact. Religion is a defining feature of the DUP and ergo those who vote for them.

Do you assert that there's no connection between religion and the DUP?

Fact. The DUP never signed the Belfast Agreement and following direct publically advertised talks with British Nationalist paramilitaries those forces are now aligned against the peace process.

Do you contest this?

Fionn1952 · 11-03-2021 02:19PM

yagan wrote: »

I think you're not reading what I haven't written.

Point out where I was only talking about Westminster elections?

The largest unionist party in both the STV PR Stormont assembly, and the FPTP Westminster poll is the DUP.

Dismissing their voter base and what they say and do is disingenuous to discussing Northern Ireland.

I don't dismiss that there is a drift to the Alliance, but there's also a hardening with a drift to the TUV.

You did state that the majority of Unionists did not support the Good Friday Agreement on the basis that they vote for the DUP, somehow managing to discount the fact that the majority of Unionists did in fact vote for the GFA.

You've also stated that people will vote for Unification to get away from sectarianism, while accusing the Tanaiste of sectarianism in the very same sentence.

I've no issue criticising political Unionism, and no problem disagreeing with Unionists on the matter of NI's constitutional future...but your caricatured picture of Unionists and confused logic certainly aren't going to help convince anyone. It reads almost like someone who has never actually met anyone from the Unionist community and only read about them in a book.

FrancieBrady · 11-03-2021 02:27PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Are you calling out each and every death in Yemen? If not, why are you defending the Saudis?

How disingenuous is that post?

We are discussing Ireland in Ireland and the actions or non actions of Irish politicians with responsibilities.

Typical look over there deflection in fairness.

rock22 · 11-03-2021 02:34PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Are you calling out each and every death in Yemen? If not, why are you defending the Saudis?

Best not to drag the thread off topic.

ancapailldorcha · 11-03-2021 02:35PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How disingenuous is that post?

We are discussing Ireland in Ireland and the actions or non actions of Irish politicians with responsibilities.

Typical look over there deflection in fairness.

So silence equating to defence only applies to Unionists. Seems unfair to hold one demographic to a higher standard than others. That's what's disingenuous.

FrancieBrady · 11-03-2021 02:45PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So silence equating to defence only applies to Unionists. Seems unfair to hold one demographic to a higher standard than others. That's what's disingenuous.

What do you mean?

The governments here have always held the actions of nationalists in NI to account. Our Tanaiste even engaged in sectarianism yesterday in another attempt to do that.
They are largely silent with regard to Unionism, they will applaud the DUP at party conferences and turn a blind eye or remain silent to their blatant bigotry and stoking of tensions.

That is the point, there is no need to deflect to Yemen.

10000maniacs · 11-03-2021 02:57PM

The DUP campaigned bitterly for a hard Brexit without a customs union or single market.
So therefore they campaigned for either a border on the island of Ireland or a border in the Irish Sea.
So now they are whinging about there being a border down the Irish Sea.
Obviously they would much prefer for the border to be on the island of Ireland.
But everything they are whinging about now is as a consequence of their successful campaign for a hard Brexit.

yagan · 11-03-2021 03:02PM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You did state that the majority of Unionists did not support the Good Friday Agreement on the basis that they vote for the DUP, somehow managing to discount the fact that the majority of Unionists did in fact vote for the GFA.

You've also stated that people will vote for Unification to get away from sectarianism, while accusing the Tanaiste of sectarianism in the very same sentence.

I've no issue criticising political Unionism, and no problem disagreeing with Unionists on the matter of NI's constitutional future...but your caricatured picture of Unionists and confused logic certainly aren't going to help convince anyone. It reads almost like someone who has never actually met anyone from the Unionist community and only read about them in a book.

When the Belfast Agreement was signed the UUP were the biggest party.

Now the largest Unionist party is the DUP, who opposed that agreement, and last week after consulting with the DUP the paramilitaries are now aligned with the DUP, and other republican dissident groups in rejecting that agreement that was ratified by referendum.

This is all fact.

political analyst · 11-03-2021 04:42PM

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/jewish-community-and-cricketers-latest-to-be-hit-by-ni-protocol-rules-3158723?r=9537

The post-Brexit trade arrangements have also disrupted supplies of specialist cricket soil known as loam from Great Britain.

Extra paperwork has caused a series of bureaucratic obstacles since the end of the post-Brexit transition period.

Northern Ireland has a small Jewish community centred around north Belfast and a central part of the Passover meal is lamb.

Meanwhile, UUP MLA and keen weekend cricketer John Stewart has said confirmation that bringing in specialist cricket pitch soil – “loam” – from England is banned because of the protocol is farcical.

He added: “Here we have another example of the EU using a sledgehammer to crack a non-existent nut.

“There is no threat to the European single market or EU plant health standards by continuing the age-old tradition of bringing in ‘loam’ to create, build and maintain cricket pitches throughout Northern Ireland, and the Republic for that matter.

“Groundsmen across the country have been told that it is currently prohibited and it is not an exaggeration to say that this prohibition could threaten the future of cricket here.”

If the lamb and the soil in Britain were OK by EU standards before Brexit then why does Brexit make those products unsuitable for a place in which the EU's single-market rules for goods apply?

Does the European Commission (EC) really think that safety standards in Britain were watered down overnight when the application of EU rules in Britain ceased?

Fionn1952 · 11-03-2021 04:48PM

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/jewish-community-and-cricketers-latest-to-be-hit-by-ni-protocol-rules-3158723?r=9537

If the lamb and the soil in Britain were OK by EU standards before Brexit then why does Brexit make those products unsuitable for a place in which the EU's single-market rules for goods apply?

Does the European Commission (EC) really think that safety standards in Britain were watered down overnight when the application of EU rules in Britain ceased?

Because as the UK are no longer members of the EU, the UK can choose to diverge from EU standards. Whether they do or not, they COULD. To protect ourselves, this means either the UK need to agree to maintain the same standards as the EU (an option the UK have rejected), or we have to check things entering our market to ensure they don't carry a risk.

This isn't a difficult concept to understand.

Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

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