Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

FrancieBrady · 10-03-2021 12:16PM

Hurrache wrote: »

It's all well and good for the diaspora arguing for a united Ireland from thousands of miles away, it's completely different when you have to live with it.

You find it onerous living with a debate on a UI?

PeadarCo · 10-03-2021 12:30PM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Quite a few NI Unionists would object to your telling them that they're Irish. As per the GFA, the people of NI are British, Irish OR both.

Not to undermine your overall point about the folly of referring to people who have lived there for generations as 'Calvanist Planters', some of which feature in my own ancestry (and the ancestry of an awful lot of staunch Republicans from NI).

I understand. But it also comes down to what you define as Irish which is ultimately a largely personal definition. From a legal point of view unionists are entitled to an Irish passport and I imagine many of them will take advantage of this to travel around Europe once travel restrictions ease. While at the same time opposing a united Ireland.

yagan · 10-03-2021 12:37PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

Talking about a united Ireland is what has caused this mess.

Ireland ruling itself caused Carson to go to the Kaiser to discuss switching allegiance to Berlin and 25.000 German guns followed the anti democracy warrior home.

Ulster Unionism is a 16th century calvinist cult which has always spurned secular democracy, but at least their paramilitaries withdrawing from the Belfast Agreement last week removed any doubt of their anti democratic intent.

There is no reasoning with a militant religious cult.

PeadarCo · 10-03-2021 12:37PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How so?

I was under the impression it was Brexit and an uncritical allegiance to Tory Britain that caused 'this mess'.

Because you start turning the protocol into a proxy unification vote. Something which the protocol has nothing to do with.

Fionn1952 · 10-03-2021 12:38PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

I understand. But it also comes down to what you define as Irish which is ultimately a largely personal definition. From a legal point of view unionists are entitled to an Irish passport and I imagine many of them will take advantage of this to travel around Europe once travel restrictions ease. While at the same time opposing a united Ireland.

Entitlement to an Irish passport doesn't make one Irish when the person entitled to it outright rejects it. It is a fundamental part of the success of the GFA that we don't, 'claim' people, it is the right of that citizen to decide if they're British, Irish or both. Should someone from a Unionist background consider themselves Irish and wish to obtain an Irish passport, that is down to them. If someone from a Unionist background tells me they're British not Irish, I'm not going to devolve into weaseling about to imply they're kind of a bit sort of Irish. That person is British, that's what I agreed to when I voted for the GFA. Whether they oppose Unification or not isn't relevant; it is perfectly possible for someone who is Irish, or a British/Irish dual citizen to oppose Unification....just take a look on the Irish Unification thread on here.

FrancieBrady · 10-03-2021 12:39PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

Because you start turning the protocol into a proxy unification vote. Something which the protocol has nothing to do with.

??

So how long should this silence last for in your opinion?

PeadarCo · 10-03-2021 12:49PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

??

So how long should this silence last for in your opinion?

Opinion on what?

The protocol has nothing to do with a united Ireland, the justification for the protocol is the GFA. The GFA sets an avenue for how a United Ireland can be achieved peacefully but doesn't guarantee one.

The protocol could result in changes economicly that makes a united Ireland more likely. But that's it more likely, you are looking into the future. By saying the protocol means a united Ireland is inevitable(it isn't) you are naturally associating it with a united Ireland. This something that is opposed by people in North Ireland.

Get the protocol working. If you think its means a united Ireland is more likely and you support that idea, even better. You have no need to talk about a united Ireland for the next few months at least until the protocol has beded in. As once the protocol has beded in a united Ireland is only a matter of time.

Fionn1952 · 10-03-2021 01:04PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

Opinion on what?

The protocol has nothing to do with a united Ireland, the justification for the protocol is the GFA. The GFA sets an avenue for how a United Ireland can be achieved peacefully but doesn't guarantee one.

The protocol could result in changes economicly that makes a united Ireland more likely. But that's it more likely, you are looking into the future. By saying the protocol means a united Ireland is inevitable(it isn't) you are naturally associating it with a united Ireland. This something that is opposed by people in North Ireland.

Get the protocol working. If you think its means a united Ireland is more likely and you support that idea, even better. You have no need to talk about a united Ireland for the next few months at least until the protocol has beded in. As once the protocol has beded in a united Ireland is only a matter of time.

Why is it so often that people purporting to take the reasonable middle ground only seem to take half of it's people into account when describing what, 'the people of NI' want?

yagan · 10-03-2021 01:05PM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Entitlement to an Irish passport doesn't make one Irish when the person entitled to it outright rejects it. It is a fundamental part of the success of the GFA that we don't, 'claim' people, it is the right of that citizen to decide if they're British, Irish or both. Should someone from a Unionist background consider themselves Irish and wish to obtain an Irish passport, that is down to them. If someone from a Unionist background tells me they're British not Irish, I'm not going to devolve into weaseling about to imply they're kind of a bit sort of Irish. That person is British, that's what I agreed to when I voted for the GFA. Whether they oppose Unification or not isn't relevant; it is perfectly possible for someone who is Irish, or a British/Irish dual citizen to oppose Unification....just take a look on the Irish Unification thread on here.

Britain actually reneging on its GFA commitment is a real threat to them. BNO status was actually created to stop people from the colonies moving to Britain and if the Hong Kong scheme backfires then I can see NI British passport holders having their British rights watered down too.

FrancieBrady · 10-03-2021 01:07PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

Opinion on what?

The protocol has nothing to do with a united Ireland, the justification for the protocol is the GFA. The GFA sets an avenue for how a United Ireland can be achieved peacefully but doesn't guarantee one.

The protocol could result in changes economicly that makes a united Ireland more likely. But that's it more likely, you are looking into the future. By saying the protocol means a united Ireland is inevitable(it isn't) you are naturally associating it with a united Ireland. This something that is opposed by people in North Ireland.

Get the protocol working. If you think its means a united Ireland is more likely and you support that idea, even better. You have no need to talk about a united Ireland for the next few months at least until the protocol has beded in. As once the protocol has beded in a united Ireland is only a matter of time.

Who said the 'protocol means a United Ireland'?

A hard brexit was the easiest option to take for a UI.

Nobody with any concern for people advocates that, so the 'protocol' has to survive.

Unionism is currently trying to take NI down a road it doesn't want to go (as far as we can tell from the Brexit ref) that is going to be challenged and rightly so.

Hurrache · 10-03-2021 01:11PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You find it onerous living with a debate on a UI?

If that's what you take from what I posted, fair play to you.

ReganBrady · 10-03-2021 01:12PM

Even if the masses would like to have a United Ireland then it's true they would have to accept it, yes that will be a point to treat them as equal citizens, also 12th would be good to have as an extra day, though things seem more than far yet, not easy to make a guess, imagine or predict anything based on present scenario.

FrancieBrady · 10-03-2021 01:14PM

Hurrache wrote: »

If that's what you take from what I posted, fair play to you.

I admit it was an interpretation of what you said. Please explain if I got it wrong.

yagan · 10-03-2021 01:32PM

ReganBrady wrote: »

Even if the masses would like to have a United Ireland then it's true they would have to accept it, yes that will be a point to treat them as equal citizens, also 12th would be good to have as an extra day, though things seem more than far yet, not easy to make a guess, imagine or predict anything based on present scenario.

Why would we celebrate an anti Catholic feast day?

Is there an Apartheid bank holiday in South Africa? If there's going to be a new holiday it will be about reunification.

The anti democracy calvinist planters march with swords drawn against the Irish nation.

Seth Brundle · 10-03-2021 01:51PM

yagan wrote: »

The anti democracy calvinist planters march with swords drawn against the Irish nation.

Give over with the silly terminology.
If you're really wanting peace going forwards in NI then your approach needs to change!

yagan · 10-03-2021 01:58PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Give over with the silly terminology.
If you're really wanting peace going forwards in NI then your approach needs to change!

I'm pro peace but the paramilitaries are now aligned with the DUP in opposing the peace process.

Why make excuses for anti democracy cults?

Seth Brundle · 10-03-2021 02:00PM

yagan wrote: »

I'm pro peace but the paramilitaries are now aligned with the DUP in opposing the peace process.

Why make excuses for anti democracy cults?

i didn't. I suggested that you tone down the rhetoric!

ancapailldorcha · 10-03-2021 02:04PM

yagan wrote: »

Why would we celebrate an anti Catholic feast day?

Is there an Apartheid bank holiday in South Africa? If there's going to be a new holiday it will be about reunification.

The anti democracy calvinist planters march with swords drawn against the Irish nation.

The silly comparisons and name calling are not helpful. I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve with them.

yagan · 10-03-2021 02:26PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The silly comparisons and name calling are not helpful. I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve with them.

How is placating unionist feelings which is what FFG seem to be doing helping?

Why is it those who adhere to the GFA are now being painted as unhelpful. Not calling out the anti GFA DUP and their para allies is encouraging anti democracy forces.

It's accurate to state Calvinism is at the core of their identity, especially since Ian Paisley Sr actually called the political branch of his church the Protestant Unionist Party, before rebranding as the DUP.

When will you understand that they don't care about democracy? They only partook of democracy when it buttressed their sectarianism.

None of what I said above is against the peace, but politically and paramilitarilly opposing the peace process can no longer be entertained. They are as offside as Saoradh and CIRA/NIRA. The more the DUP and their paras are treated with kid gloves the more dissidents of all hues will feel justified.

BonnieSituation · 10-03-2021 02:29PM

schmoo2k wrote: »

Add from New York Times + Washington Post - bound to help the NI protocol issue no end:

A UI eliminates the Protocol issue, so yes, it would indeed help.

Seth Brundle · 10-03-2021 02:35PM

yagan wrote: »

How is placating unionist feelings which is what FFG seem to be doing helping?

Why is it those who adhere to the GFA are now being painted as unhelpful. Not calling out the anti GFA DUP and their para allies is encouraging anti democracy forces.

It's accurate to state Calvinism is at the core of their identity, especially since Ian Paisley Sr actually called the political branch of his church the Protestant Unionist Party, before rebranding as the DUP.

When will you understand that they don't care about democracy? They only partook of democracy when it buttressed their sectarianism.

None of what I said above is against the peace, but politically and paramilitarilly opposing the peace process can no longer be entertained. They are as offside as Saoradh and CIRA/NIRA. The more the DUP and their paras are treated with kid gloves the more dissidents of all hues will feel justified.

The GFA worked because everryone in NI was treated as an equal. People are to be treated with respect.
Whilst this did not suit all agendas up there, those that oppose it made a conscious choice.

By name calling and belitteling people, you will never make them want to be part of what you are proposing to achieve (which I assume is a peaceful region where all are made feel welcome). Would the peace process have worked if nationalists were still made feel inferior?

yagan · 10-03-2021 02:38PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The GFA worked because everryone in NI was treated as an equal. People are to be treated with respect.
Whilst this did not suit all agendas up there, those that oppose it made a conscious choice.

By name calling and belitteling people, you will never make them want to be part of what you are proposing to achieve (which I assume is a peaceful region where all are made feel welcome). Would the peace process have worked if nationalists were still made feel inferior?

Name calling?

Is not Calvinism a central part of the protestant tradition particular to peoples in the north east of Ireland, and do they not claim descendancy from English and Scottish colonialism?

You can't just flippingly dismiss their heritage. Have some respect.

Professor Moriarty · 10-03-2021 02:42PM

yagan wrote: »

How is placating unionist feelings which is what FFG seem to be doing helping?

Why is it those who adhere to the GFA are now being painted as unhelpful. Not calling out the anti GFA DUP and their para allies is encouraging anti democracy forces.

It's accurate to state Calvinism is at the core of their identity, especially since Ian Paisley Sr actually called the political branch of his church the Protestant Unionist Party, before rebranding as the DUP.

When will you understand that they don't care about democracy? They only partook of democracy when it buttressed their sectarianism.

None of what I said above is against the peace, but politically and paramilitarilly opposing the peace process can no longer be entertained. They are as offside as Saoradh and CIRA/NIRA. The more the DUP and their paras are treated with kid gloves the more dissidents of all hues will feel justified.

What is an FFG?

ancapailldorcha · 10-03-2021 02:47PM

yagan wrote: »

Name calling?

Is not Calvinism a central part of the protestant tradition particular to peoples in the north east of Ireland, and do they not claim descendancy from English and Scottish colonialism?

You can't just flippingly dismiss their heritage. Have some respect.

Calling Unionism a sixteenth century cult is at been unhelpful. You know full well that this was what I was referring to and now you're pretending to care about Unionist culture.

Sam Russell · 10-03-2021 02:58PM

yagan wrote: »

Britain actually reneging on its GFA commitment is a real threat to them. BNO status was actually created to stop people from the colonies moving to Britain and if the Hong Kong scheme backfires then I can see NI British passport holders having their British rights watered down too.

No, if the CTA survives, then an Irish or British passport is equivalent within the UK. Under British law, Irish people are not Aliens - very important that.

yagan · 10-03-2021 04:16PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Calling Unionism a sixteenth century cult is at been unhelpful. You know full well that this was what I was referring to and now you're pretending to care about Unionist culture.

The reformation is central to their identity.

I'm of a mixed catholic/protestant background and I have zero problems understanding that when someone identifies themselves politically with a religion then they really aren't a fit for secular democracy.

Many here can't seem to grasp that some people live their religion publicly via politics. It makes zero sense to most of us in secular Ireland obviously, but that's the way it is.

In many ways Aontú have more in common with the DUP than with anyone other party on the island. Their greatest threat isn't Catholicism, it's secular democracy which supersedes religious affiliation.

I really don't know why people can't get that religion is central to the DUP and those they represent. Their greatest threat is secular democracy.

Seth Brundle · 10-03-2021 05:27PM

Apparently it's official - a feasibility study is to assess the possibility of building a bridge between NI and GB :rolleyes:
I've a feeling that the people working in Larne port won't be fearing for their jobs!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-56341013?__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Fionn1952 · 10-03-2021 05:33PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Apparently it's official - a feasibility study is to assess the possibility of building a bridge between NI and GB :rolleyes:
I've a feeling that the people working in Larne port won't be fearing for their jobs!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-56341013?__twitter_impression=true&s=09

Could save them months and a load of money. No. Feasibility Study complete.

yagan · 10-03-2021 06:29PM

Leo Varadkar has made the mistake that many here do in thinking Republican = Catholicism and now he's retracted that assertion.

In trying to coax and accommodate the unionist sectarianism Leo alienates all of us of all believe in secular democracy.

Seth Brundle · 10-03-2021 06:37PM

yagan wrote: »

Leo Varadkar has made the mistake that many here do in thinking Republican = Catholicism and now he's retracted that assertion.

In trying to coax and accommodate the unionist sectarianism Leo alienates all of us of all believe in secular democracy.

What did he say?

Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

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