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2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

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  • #5282
    PropQueries
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    Timing belt wrote: »
    We were talking about mid to high rise apartments so they will more than likely be city centre based so empty fields don't enter the equation... and I am sure that you will have the same issues in Dublin as London with regards to historical finds.

    Do you really think the UK building regs are more strict than Ireland? Maybe in the past but I don't think that will be the case anymore. And if your logic is correct then the cost of an apartment block in London will be the same as Bristol or any regional city once you exclude the land.

    Dublin doesn’t even come close to London on building regulations. There is a very good article on the economist with the sub-heading: “Why building in the world’s most popular city is so difficult and expensive”.

    “Yet building offices (and homes) near the middle of the capital is shockingly expensive. Even before the cost of land is considered, it costs roughly a fifth more than erecting similar stuff in New York or Hong Kong, according to Turner and Townsend, a consultancy firm.”

    “The planning system then adds all sorts of expensive complexities. In Westminster more than 75% of land is covered by 56 conservation areas protecting the historic appearances of streets, right down to the colour of paint on doors.”

    “Taller buildings are trickier still. They must not block designated views of various landmarks, which explains why some of the skyscrapers in the City of London are oddly shaped”

    It goes on to say in relation to your query on whether it costs more to build in Bristol than London:

    “Putting up buildings is far quicker and easier in other cities, such as Birmingham and Manchester, and also in London suburbs such as Croydon. But developers persist with inner London anyway.”

    There are many other reasons detailed in the article and well worth a read IMO:

    Link to article in The Economist here: https://www.economist.com/britain/2014/08/09/bodies-bombs-and-bureaucracy


  • #5283
    Hubertj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    Timing belt wrote: »
    The first thing I would do is to find out the real history of the property to make sure that there was no dispute behind it that would result in local tradesmen not wanting to work on it. From the photo's its hard to tell but it does look as if it is only internal work and that it is sealed from the weather.

    Thanks, I never thought about possible local disputes related to the property. Only day dreaming at this stage anyway. Not like Kerry is 5 poxy km from my gaff


  • #5284
    Timing belt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Hubertj wrote: »
    Thanks, I never thought about possible local disputes related to the property. Only day dreaming at this stage anyway. Not like Kerry is 5 poxy km from my gaff

    Lovely part of the world but a long commute from there to Dublin (5 hours) or Cork (2 hours). The other thing that would be priority is if the house has a landline, water, electricity etc... as it may problematic depending on how far away the network is.

    The thing with big houses in the country side like that is that a lot of times a newly married couple start building and then they split up and no-one in the community wants to take sides so trademen stay away and won't undertake work... You don't want to be the Yank coming in to buy at public auction like in the Field....

    https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/detached-house-nedanone-castlecove-co-kerry/1477106

    For sale on daft @ 200k (40k cheaper)


  • #5285
    Hubertj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    Timing belt wrote: »
    Lovely part of the world but a long commute from there to Dublin (5 hours) or Cork (2 hours). The other thing that would be priority is if the house has a landline, water, electricity etc... as it may problematic depending on how far away the network is.

    The thing with big houses in the country side like that is that a lot of times a newly married couple start building and then they split up and no-one in the community wants to take sides so trademen stay away and won't undertake work... You don't want to be the Yank coming in to buy at public auction like in the Field....

    https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/detached-house-nedanone-castlecove-co-kerry/1477106

    For sale on daft @ 200k (40k cheaper)

    Lovely part of the world, last 2 summer holidays in that area. Am thinking holiday home and not full time resident. I’m not 1 of the millions of people that have left or will leave Dublin due to COVID.
    Never considered looking at daft. Interesting the price differential. Nice 1.


  • #5286
    Timing belt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Hubertj wrote: »
    Lovely part of the world, last 2 summer holidays in that area. Am thinking holiday home and not full time resident. I’m not 1 of the millions of people that have left or will leave Dublin due to COVID.
    Never considered looking at daft. Interesting the price differential. Nice 1.

    This is the street view of the property
    https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7738594,-10.0127054,3a,60y,351.69h,79.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shtr6DchTeS9Z82xNT7cEHQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    From the photo it was up for sale with a DNG Auctioner but it is no longer listed so might be on the market for a while

    There is this one for sale down the road for 92k

    https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/detached-house-baslickane-waterville-co-kerry/2937701


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  • #5287
    cnocbui
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,174 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Hubertj wrote: »
    https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/nedanone-castlecove-kerry/4401120

    How would you go about getting this evaluated? First step to get a building contractor and or engineer to evaluate work done to date then estimate costs to finish it? I presume contractors could be reluctant to take on a half finished job due to uncertainty about quality of work carried out by someone else?

    It misses out on fibre to the home by a short distance, maybe they moved to get that. My house was close to that level of finish when I bought it. The most important thing is check for a water supply. You don't want to find they drilled and came up dry.


  • #5288
    Timing belt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Interesting to see that Hibernia Reit are looking to get land in Newlands cross rezoned from agricultural land so they can build 3,500 houses.

    https://www.echo.ie/news/article/newlands-farm-over-3-500-residential-units-planned-for-hibernia-site

    Its hard to believe that this land is sitting there and already has full services and yet the government can't build affordable houses
    Hibernia hopes the site will be rezoned for residential development in the next South Dublin County Development Plan, for the period 2022-2028, which is currently under review.

    The spokesperson added: “Unlike many other proposed sites for development, it is already fully serviced for water, power and data, thus reducing the timeline for delivery.”

    The IRFU are in for a nice bonus if the do manage to get it rezoned

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/hibernia-acquires-92-acres-at-newlands-cross-from-irfu-1.3694888


  • #5289
    stampydmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭stampydmonkey


    Timing belt wrote: »

    https://www.echo.ie/news/article/newlands-farm-over-3-500-residential-units-planned-for-hibernia-site

    "60 per cent saw the development of more homes and apartments to rent, rather than buy, as being a priority."

    60% of who....developers?


  • #5290
    Timing belt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    stampydmonkey wrote: »
    "60 per cent saw the development of more homes and apartments to rent, rather than buy, as being a priority."

    60% of who....developers?

    "A survey of local residents was carried out by the market research company Behaviour and Attitudes last year, on behalf of Hibernia, and the findings of the survey have informed Hibernia’s plans.

    Their survey found that 53 per cent of respondents were in favour of new homes, 43 per cent were in favour of more rental accommodation, and 60 per cent saw the development of more homes and apartments to rent, rather than buy, as being a priority."


  • #5291
    Villa05
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,909 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Timing belt wrote:
    It might have something to do with complying with fire regulations and not just throwing up any type of building like they did previously. It would be interesting to see how Dublin compares with London in costs of building mid to high rise apartments.


    I'm sure houses have to comply with fire regulations also.

    Is there a precedent anywhere else in the world where apartments cost more to build than houses?

    I can't see any other reason than this being a con job by the industry on the state, all state assisted of course through government policy.


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  • #5292
    HansKroenke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭HansKroenke


    Timing belt wrote: »
    Interesting to see that Hibernia Reit are looking to get land in Newlands cross rezoned from agricultural land so they can build 3,500 houses.

    https://www.echo.ie/news/article/newlands-farm-over-3-500-residential-units-planned-for-hibernia-site

    Its hard to believe that this land is sitting there and already has full services and yet the government can't build affordable houses


    The IRFU are in for a nice bonus if the do manage to get it rezoned

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/hibernia-acquires-92-acres-at-newlands-cross-from-irfu-1.3694888

    Interesting as Hibernia is primarily a commercial REIT with only 11% residential assets in its portfolio. With demand being significant for homes among the population and a pro-investor government, this is an area where we will see a lot more growth and increased supply.


  • #5293
    Villa05
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,909 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Timing belt wrote:
    You have a bee in your bonnet about Reits and Tax.... The reason they are not taxed is to stop investors from being taxed twice on the investment. Would you be happier if the Reit's paid the tax and the investors didn't pay tax.

    The taxpayer provides essential services to these buildings like water, waste, transport services and infrastructure. Without these services the properties are worthless, its not unreasonable for business that benefit from these services and provision/maintenence of infrastructure to make a contribution to their cost like every other citizen


  • #5294
    Hubertj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    Villa05 wrote: »
    I'm sure houses have to comply with fire regulations also.

    Is there a precedent anywhere else in the world where apartments cost more to build than houses?

    I can't see any other reason than this being a con job by the industry on the state, all state assisted of course through government policy.

    All part of the conspiracy.

    https://propertydata.co.uk/construction-costs


  • #5295
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭fliball123


    schmittel wrote: »
    15 years ago we thought 10 times average wage was the sign of a boom, now we seem have normalised it!


    average Irish house price
    https://www.newstalk.com/news/average-house-price-in-ireland-increased-by-almost-e20000-this-year-1124268#:~:text=Average%20house%20price%20in%20Ireland%20increased%20by%20almost%20%E2%82%AC20%2C000%20this%20year,-Marita%20Moloney&text=The%20average%20listed%20price%20of,price%20nationwide%20was%20%E2%82%AC269%2C522.

    average house price = 269,522

    Average wage
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/average-full-time-salary-in-republic-nearly-49-000-1.4289348#:~:text=The%20latest%20figures%20show%20average,increase%20of%203.7%20per%20cent).

    Average wage full time salary = 49000

    Even at the median salary 36k (with part time workers included )


    how is this 10 times the average wage??

    10 x 36 = 360k ?
    10 x 49 = 490k?
    Average house price just under 270k?

    Can we stop with the hyperbole ?


  • #5296
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭fliball123


    schmittel wrote: »
    There are those on here claiming property is currently affordable which is bonkers. That is who I am referring to.

    Yes there some 15 years ago saying property at over 10 times the national wage was perfectly normal, and that people should stop cribbing and moaning from the sidelines. Look how well that turned out.

    So all property for all people is unavoidable?? can you quantify/prove this ??


  • #5297
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭fliball123


    PropQueries wrote: »
    The only reason they’re currently getting the rents they are is because of long-term lease agreements with the council or HAP.

    Once the state pulls in the purse strings, rents collapse.

    The lease agreements the current funds have signed up for are most likely watertight but any developer who doesn’t sign up within the next 6 months will be extremely disappointed IMO

    You do realise a lot of these rental agreements are fixed for 20 to 25 years. It might be some time before they can pull the purse strings closed on these?


  • #5298
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭fliball123


    PropQueries wrote: »
    Market rents will collapse. The long-term lease agreements already entered into will be paid by the taxpayer through higher taxes and less local services for many years e.g. citizens shouldn’t be expecting that ambulance to arrive on time etc.

    But, after c. 6 months, Paschal will pull in the purse strings and there will (should) be no more such ridiculous agreements signed.

    Once the state exits the market, landlords will be left fighting over the very few tenants actually seeking rental accommodation IMO

    When did Pascal tell you this or are you looking at your crystal ball again?


  • #5299
    Villa05
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,909 ✭✭✭Villa05


    fliball123 wrote:
    Average wage full time salary = 49000


    Do you know if the figure includes bonus and overtime payments?


  • #5300
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭fliball123


    PropQueries wrote: »
    Apparently c. 700,000 people have left London since the pandemic started.

    Any ideas on how many have left Dublin as the Irish media seem to be very quite on that front here? It's actually a very big question given all the analysis on WFH, future of the city etc. IMO

    Link to article in Irish Times on 700,000 leaving London here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/covid-19-london-s-population-fell-by-700-000-amid-exodus-of-foreign-born-residents-from-uk-1.4458762

    So this had absolutely zero to do with Brexit ??? come on props do better. Ireland had more people coming into the country than leaving

    https://emn.ie/returning-irish-drive-net-inward-migration-for-ireland-of-28900-in-year-to-april-2020/


  • #5301
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    fliball123 wrote: »
    So all property for all people is unavoidable?? can you quantify/prove this ??

    This question is in such expressly bad faith I would consider it deliberate aggravation for sport in the realm of "Not touching, can't get mad".

    It takes an almighty strain to pretend not to understand a common sense understanding of a word as everyday as "affordable", or that you think the reverse of it is that it's impossible for anyone to get property ever.


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  • #5302
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Villa05 wrote: »
    Do you know if the figure includes bonus and overtime payments?

    Salary is usual stated without bonus in my years of experience working. It doesnt say but bonuses are usually condition and not guaranteed


  • #5303
    PropQueries
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    Hubertj wrote: »
    All part of the conspiracy.

    https://propertydata.co.uk/construction-costs


    According to that (in London), the cost of building a house is £190 per sq.ft. and the cost of building a medium sized apartment block is £249 per sq.ft

    So, if they had a site with initial planning permission for 10 houses and then went back and got planning permission for 50 apartments on the same sized site, the cost of constructing each unit has only gone up c. 25%, but they're building 5 times as many units on the same sized site.

    So, yes, if land cost wasn't included and they wanted to achieve the same profit, the end selling price of each apartment should be a lot lot less than the selling price of each house on the same site if land costs weren't a factor IMO

    So, therefore, it's not lifts or fire or building regulations. It's site costs. And who gives value to the site? The state who is the only power with the ability to grant or change planning permission.

    Which brings us right back to the Kenny report that was published c. 50 years ago where they stated that land with planning permission should only cost 25% more than it's alternative use value (i.e. agri) as it's the state (through the planning permission process) and not the site owner that gives the land value.


  • #5304
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭fliball123


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    This question is in such expressly bad faith I would consider it deliberate aggravation for sport in the realm of "Not touching, can't get mad".

    It takes an almighty strain to pretend not to understand a common sense understanding of a word as everyday as "affordable", or that you think the reverse of it is that it's impossible for anyone to get property ever.

    Sorry Jill I took the median wage including part time workers(so half our population are on over this amount and under it 36k) and using the current metrics that we borrow by and looking at the current stock of property available on myhome and over half the current stock is affordable by these metrics. This is not expressing bad faith its expressing the fact that there is property out there available for the average (median) and is affordable. Is all property affordable to all people ?? NO but like everywhere in the world people pay a premium for desirable areas and houses that are built to a higher standard. Now I do realise that asking price does not equal selling price, currently things are selling at a higher price point due to a supply issue. Also those on under the median have mechanism to help them buy.


  • #5305
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Any chance there can be a branch of this thread but without the constant dominance by PropQueries. Its just taking from the whole thread and has been for a long time now.


  • #5306
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,697 ✭✭✭hometruths


    fliball123 wrote: »
    So all property for all people is unavoidable?? can you quantify/prove this ??

    What do you mean by all property for all people?


  • #5307
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Any chance there can be a branch of this thread but without the constant dominance by PropQueries. Its just taking from the whole thread and has been for a long time now.


    I'm following this one https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058047890&page=362


    it's more for people who are actually buying a house and have real examples of what's going on out there


  • #5308
    donnaille
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭donnaille


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Any chance there can be a branch of this thread but without the constant dominance by PropQueries. Its just taking from the whole thread and has been for a long time now.

    Yes, is there a way to block posters whose opinion I do not agree with? - I cannot find this option.


  • #5309
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭fliball123


    fliball123 wrote: »
    So all property for all people is unavoidable?? can you quantify/prove this ??
    schmittel wrote: »
    There are those on here claiming property is currently affordable which is bonkers. That is who I am referring to.

    Yes there some 15 years ago saying property at over 10 times the national wage was perfectly normal, and that people should stop cribbing and moaning from the sidelines. Look how well that turned out.
    fliball123 wrote: »
    average Irish house price
    https://www.newstalk.com/news/average-house-price-in-ireland-increased-by-almost-e20000-this-year-1124268#:~:text=Average%20house%20price%20in%20Ireland%20increased%20by%20almost%20%E2%82%AC20%2C000%20this%20year,-Marita%20Moloney&text=The%20average%20listed%20price%20of,price%20nationwide%20was%20%E2%82%AC269%2C522.

    average house price = 269,522

    Average wage
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/average-full-time-salary-in-republic-nearly-49-000-1.4289348#:~:text=The%20latest%20figures%20show%20average,increase%20of%203.7%20per%20cent).

    Average wage full time salary = 49000

    Even at the median salary 36k (with part time workers included )


    how is this 10 times the average wage??

    10 x 36 = 360k ?
    10 x 49 = 490k?
    Average house price just under 270k?

    Can we stop with the hyperbole ?
    schmittel wrote: »
    What do you mean by all property for all people?

    Well you put this post up. I am the one claiming that some property is affordable to some people and I have quantified this with the math using the median wage. Your using hyperbole with regards to your math where you think the average property price is 10 times the national wage which is an outright lie. So prove that your statement that anyone saying property is currently affordable is bonkers???


  • #5310
    PropQueries
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    I'm following this one https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058047890&page=362


    it's more for people who are actually buying a house and have real examples of what's going on out there

    Well, given that there are only 2,948 properties currently for sale in Co. Dublin on MyHome.ie and DCC have recently stated they're in active negotiations with c. 4,000 property owner in the city, I would hope they all realise who is most likely bidding against them.

    And DCC is just one of 4 councils in Co. Dublin.

    I would think having an idea of who the probable counter-bidder is would be a very important factor on when deciding on what to bid.


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  • #5311
    fliball123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭fliball123


    donnaille wrote: »
    Yes, is there a way to block posters whose opinion I do not agree with? - I cannot find this option.

    I wouldnt stop him posting, at this stage if I see the letters IMO in his post I just go to the next post. The odd time he does comes up with some good facts and figures but then uses them to try and prove something else or contradicts a position he held a month back which is always funny :)


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