We landed on Mars... again? [Mod note post #1]

Dohnjoe · 01-03-2021 6:34pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

For what it's worth I don't think the Apollo Moon Landings were faked. But then I have no proof that they were authentic OR that they were faked. I'm happy enough to take their word for it.

There is a huge amount of proof and evidence and witnesses that we landed on the moon. There is no credible proof or evidence that anything else occurred or that the missions were faked.

Keeping that in mind, the fact that you seem to be treating it like it's 50/50 means you either know very little about the missions or that you may have difficulty interpreting information properly.

JJayoo · 01-03-2021 8:28pm

Since I have not personally been on the moon I don't believe anyone else has. I also feel this way about every country I haven't been in.

King Mob · 01-03-2021 10:48pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

For what it's worth I don't think the Apollo Moon Landings were faked. But then I have no proof that they were authentic OR that they were faked. .

What proof so you have that the Earth is round?

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Anyway to get back to the issue at hand, i.e. moon landings. You state that it would have been impossible to fake the footage as the technology in 1968 didn't exist to mock up something like this. How many movies have you seen from the 60's that showed convincing footage? The 1958 movie A Night To Remember, with Kenneth Moore about the Titanic sinking looked pretty scary and real to me and it was 10 years before 1968. How many real birds were in Hitchcock's "The Birds" in 1963? Maybe 3 or 4 but I could have sworn there were thousands.
.

We've shown multiple examples of how the footage is impossible to fake using 60s technology. We've show that it's not possible to create the hours of slow motion footage needed. We've shown that there are effects that are impossible to replicate.

Are you deliberately ignoring those points and lying about them or did you just not read them?

ShatterAlan · 01-03-2021 11:16pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

From a tech point of view the whole mission is pretty amazing. Below is proper video footage from landing on another planet, the sky-crane flying off is like something out of a sci-fi film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4czjS9h4Fpg

And here is an interesting video just on the mini-helicopter on board the Perseverance and the engineering challenges surrounding it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhsZUZmJvaM

Impressive stuff, indeed. Except We're talking about transmitting from 200m k away. Not building something or launching something, or landing something or controlling something. So please don't deflect.

I would imagine that instructions and navigational commands can be sent to these probes and various vehicles. That being the case why is it so hard to believe that information can not be returned?

Again, I have no desire to doubt or question planetary or lunar landings/explorations but somebody complained that the footage was grainy and weak and someone else chimed in saying "it takes time to get images back from Mars"

Maybe it does. But it's no huge "achievement" to transmit over 200 million km when Voyager has been doing so since the 80's.

robinph · 01-03-2021 11:24pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Impressive stuff, indeed. Except We're talking about transmitting from 200m k away. Not building something or launching something, or landing something or controlling something. So please don't deflect.

I would imagine that instructions and navigational commands can be sent to these probes and various vehicles. That being the case why is it so hard to believe that information can not be returned?

Again, I have no desire to doubt or question planetary or lunar landings/explorations but somebody complained that the footage was grainy and weak and someone else chimed in saying "it takes time to get images back from Mars"

Maybe it does. But it's no huge "achievement" to transmit over 200 million km when Voyager has been doing so since the 80's.

It is when you have to power that transmission using a couple of tiny batteries. Every bit of data that you send back is one less bit of energy you can use for something else to operate your craft, if that is Voyager or a Mars rover. The Mars rovers can get some recharge from solar panels, but a dust storm and you are screwed.

King Mob · 01-03-2021 11:46pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Maybe it does. But it's no huge "achievement" to transmit over 200 million km when Voyager has been doing so since the 80's.

There's no maybe about it.

You've been offered several sources that explain that this is the case and why it's the case. You clearly have no interest in actually learning about the issue.

JJayoo · 02-03-2021 12:00am

Is it true that NASA transmits porn into space?

Dohnjoe · 02-03-2021 12:08am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Again, I have no desire to doubt or question planetary or lunar landings/explorations but somebody complained that the footage was grainy and weak and someone else chimed in saying "it takes time to get images back from Mars"

The footage isn't "grainy", as that comment was moot. As for time taken, depends on the size of the photo/video. Data takes from 5 to 20 mins to travel from Mars back to Earth, but due to the bandwidth, a large photo/video will take extra time. The larger the file, the longer it takes. We had black/white basic landing photos within hours, and we had quality video within days of landing.

Kunta Kinte · 02-03-2021 12:23am

JJayoo wrote: »

Is it true that NASA transmits porn into space?

Does this count as porn?

namloc1980 · 02-03-2021 11:16am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Impressive stuff, indeed. Except We're talking about transmitting from 200m k away. Not building something or launching something, or landing something or controlling something. So please don't deflect.

I would imagine that instructions and navigational commands can be sent to these probes and various vehicles. That being the case why is it so hard to believe that information can not be returned?

Again, I have no desire to doubt or question planetary or lunar landings/explorations but somebody complained that the footage was grainy and weak and someone else chimed in saying "it takes time to get images back from Mars"

Maybe it does. But it's no huge "achievement" to transmit over 200 million km when Voyager has been doing so since the 80's.

Voyager transmits at about 160 bits per second. At that speed it would take about 72 hours to download a single compressed low quality image file of 5MB. A high quality image would take weeks to transmit.

Now for Mars, this first "grainy" images came though minutes after landing via the rover talking to the Mars Reconnaissance orbiter which was orbiting overhead. It has a data rate of c.0.5 to 4MB/s so again the first low quality images were posted almost immediately and would take 30s-3 minutes each to transmit and download. Higher quality images and videos would need time to be transmitted and processed.

It's not like they have a multi gigabit fibre optic connection to work with.

02-03-2021 11:18am

Imagine being underwhelmed by humanity sending robots to Mars to check for signs of life.

Whatever generation this is, it's truly the worst.

robinph · 02-03-2021 11:54am

namloc1980 wrote: »

Voyager transmits at about 160 bits per second. At that speed it would take about 72 hours to download a single compressed low quality image file of 5MB. A high quality image would take weeks to transmit.

Now for Mars, this first "grainy" images came though minutes after landing via the rover talking to the Mars Reconnaissance orbiter which was orbiting overhead. It has a data rate of c.0.5 to 4MB/s so again the first low quality images were posted almost immediately and would take 30s-3 minutes each to transmit and download. Higher quality images and videos would need time to be transmitted and processed.

It's not like they have a multi gigabit fibre optic connection to work with.

Each of those 160 bits being the equivalent of using a pea shooter to try and hit a coin spinning on its edge, on a spinning roundabout in a kids playground that is 10 miles away, and it only counts if you hit the coin on the heads side.

ohnonotgmail · 02-03-2021 1:24pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Since I have not personally been on the moon I don't believe anyone else has. I also feel this way about every country I haven't been in.

I'm not even convinced about the existence of countries I have been in. They could all just be a massive Truman show style ruse.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-03-2021 2:28pm

Maybe Boards is just an increasingly nightmarish figment of my imagination :P

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein

ShatterAlan · 03-03-2021 10:11pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

From a tech point of view the whole mission is pretty amazing. Below is proper video footage from landing on another planet, the sky-crane flying off is like something out of a sci-fi film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4czjS9h4Fpg

And here is an interesting video just on the mini-helicopter on board the Perseverance and the engineering challenges surrounding it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhsZUZmJvaM

We're not talking about the entire project. So please stop trying to complicate the issue.

I think everyone is in agreement that getting something, anything, to land intact on a planet or natural satellite is in fact an amazing achievement.

Getting data back is hardly as amazing as the OP claimed.

If the probe can be controlled from this end (200 million km away) then it's hardly magic that a static transmitter sending data back in the other direction is some kind of scientific miracle.

ShatterAlan · 03-03-2021 10:37pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There is a huge amount of proof and evidence and witnesses that we landed on the moon. There is no credible proof or evidence that anything else occurred or that the missions were faked.

Keeping that in mind, the fact that you seem to be treating it like it's 50/50 means you either know very little about the missions or that you may have difficulty interpreting information properly.

I'm not treating it as 50/50. Those are your words.

So again please stop trying to paint me into a corner with your games. I have no reason whatsoever to believe moon landings and Mars landings were faked but once again you are trying to insist I be "all or nothing", "with you or against you", per se.

The argument isn't on my part that extra-terretrial explorations were faked, it is that I am disputing yours and others assertions that the technology didn't exist to conduct such fakery.

So please try to take that on board.

I don't believe fairiies exist yet there was a very convincing photograph from maybe 100 years ago that showed them at the bottom of someone's garden.

So again, my stance is that I do not doubt lunar landings or the veracity of any other exploratory expedition beyond the "surly bonds" of Earth and I certainly am not vulgar as to accuse someone who has their doubts as someone who thinks the Earth is flat.

The technology exists to fake these images. And that's a fact. I don't want to hear anything about "why?" because I don't care. It has been stated that the technology does NOT exist. And that's my argument.

ShatterAlan · 03-03-2021 10:43pm

robinph wrote: »

It is when you have to power that transmission using a couple of tiny batteries. Every bit of data that you send back is one less bit of energy you can use for something else to operate your craft, if that is Voyager or a Mars rover. The Mars rovers can get some recharge from solar panels, but a dust storm and you are screwed.

Isn't Voyager still sending data back from beyond the outer reaches of the Solar System and it was sent on it's way in the 70's?

ohnonotgmail · 03-03-2021 10:57pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Isn't Voyager still sending data back from beyond the outer reaches of the Solar System and it was sent on it's way in the 70's?

the voyager craft used nuclear power.

ShatterAlan · 03-03-2021 11:01pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Voyager transmits at about 160 bits per second. At that speed it would take about 72 hours to download a single compressed low quality image file of 5MB. A high quality image would take weeks to transmit.

Now for Mars, this first "grainy" images came though minutes after landing via the rover talking to the Mars Reconnaissance orbiter which was orbiting overhead. It has a data rate of c.0.5 to 4MB/s so again the first low quality images were posted almost immediately and would take 30s-3 minutes each to transmit and download. Higher quality images and videos would need time to be transmitted and processed.

It's not like they have a multi gigabit fibre optic connection to work with.

I'm not doubting your telecom/datacom breakdown. I'm a microelectronics engineer though I've never really given a toss about communications and latency and and crap like that.

Live pictures came back from the Moon 50 years ago. I know, it's a lot closer than Mars, but the transmission technology was also medieval back then compared to now...or maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe they're still using the 9v battery and a transmitter the size of a tea cup..

With that in mind, we can expect Hi-Def coloured images soon? Yes?

ShatterAlan · 03-03-2021 11:06pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the voyager craft used nuclear power.

So does a luminous watch.

What's your point?

ohnonotgmail · 03-03-2021 11:08pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

So does a luminous watch.

What's your point?

are you capable of civil discussion?

Dohnjoe · 03-03-2021 11:14pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I'm not treating it as 50/50. Those are your words.

Fair enough, it came across as you just went with their word on it and nothing else

The technology exists to fake these images. And that's a fact. I don't want to hear anything about "why?" because I don't care. It has been stated that the technology does NOT exist. And that's my argument.

There's a strong argument that the technology didn't exist to fake the footage of the original moon landings. As pointed out in the below video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_loUDS4c3Cs

Dohnjoe · 03-03-2021 11:19pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

With that in mind, we can expect Hi-Def coloured images soon? Yes?

High definition images have been sent back.

In the time it took you to write that you could have looked this information up, takes seconds.

ShatterAlan · 03-03-2021 11:27pm

robinph wrote: »

It is when you have to power that transmission using a couple of tiny batteries. Every bit of data that you send back is one less bit of energy you can use for something else to operate your craft, if that is Voyager or a Mars rover. The Mars rovers can get some recharge from solar panels, but a dust storm and you are screwed.

I bet the thousands of physicists never thought of a dust storm.

Escape velocity, freezing temperatures, solar flare interference, capture orbit, descent, ....safe descent...gear is still working. Bang we're on the Red Planet.

Took account of all that...the acidity of the soil, the density of the rock. The thing landed in an open plain and the Earth-bound operators can see around in nearly real time to override the thing if it winds up on its back in a ravine or wedged between two rocks.

"Oh FUCK....a sandstrom. Mission OVER. Let's try again next year"

namloc1980 · 03-03-2021 11:30pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I bet the thousands of physicists never thought of a dust storm.

Escape velocity, freezing temperatures, solar flare interference, capture orbit, descent, ....safe descent...gear is still working. Bang we're on the Red Planet.

Took account of all that...the acidity of the soil, the density of the rock. The thing landed in an open plain and the Earth-bound operators can see around in nearly real time to override the thing if it winds up on its back in a ravine or wedged between two rocks.

"Oh FUCK....a sandstrom. Mission OVER. Let's try again next year"

What are you talking about? Perseverance is powered by a radioisotope thermoelectrical generator, in essence nuclear powered. You're being absolutely ridiculous.

JJayoo · 03-03-2021 11:40pm

Is Matt Damon still up there?

Dr. Bre · 04-03-2021 12:05am

JJayoo wrote: »

Is Matt Damon still up there?

Na he’s in Dalkey

Dohnjoe · 04-03-2021 12:05am

namloc1980 wrote: »

Voyager transmits at about 160 bits per second. At that speed it would take about 72 hours to download a single compressed low quality image file of 5MB. A high quality image would take weeks to transmit.

Now for Mars, this first "grainy" images came though minutes after landing via the rover talking to the Mars Reconnaissance orbiter which was orbiting overhead. It has a data rate of c.0.5 to 4MB/s so again the first low quality images were posted almost immediately and would take 30s-3 minutes each to transmit and download. Higher quality images and videos would need time to be transmitted and processed.

It's not like they have a multi gigabit fibre optic connection to work with.

Also should also be mentioned that the Perseverance (or any rover) has countless checks to perform once it lands and in the subsequent days/weeks. It's not a race to get images back, there's a queue along with everything else that has to be done. That said, it's been quite rapid, we received some nice video footage within days of landing

King Mob · 04-03-2021 12:07am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

The thing landed in an open plain and the Earth-bound operators can see around in nearly real time to override the thing if it winds up on its back in a ravine or wedged between two rocks.

No, no Landers or probes could have "nearly real time" communication with mission control.
It takes up to 20 mins for signals to travel between Earth and Mars. When they are watching the feeds from the landings they are watching something that's already happened 20 minutes ago.
This is by no definition "real time".

Additionally in landings like Curiosity and Perservence, mission control can't intervene. The landings are entirely automatic and computer controlled. The computers are programmed and designed to find a good landing site.

ShatterAlan wrote: »

"Oh FUCK....a sandstrom. Mission OVER. Let's try again next year"

The Opportunity rover was designed to last 90 days on Mars. It lasted for 14 years.

Not sure what point you're trying to make.

04-03-2021 2:04pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Let's take this angle and say yep that's what the Americans did, they shot it all in a studio. OK. Now these days we're used to incredible special effects, computer generated mostly and high definition video etc. Slight problem, none of that existed in the 1960's. Not even close. They had film tech well established and down to a fine art and very high def, but herein lays the problem; TV and video footage.

To film the moon footage you need well, film cameras and they have rolls that that last around ten minutes of shooting before they have to be swapped out, even less if as suggested they were shooting the moon walks in slow motion(you have to speed up the camera). Now you could maybe double that time if you shoot at slower frame rates(like the onboard film cameras did during the LM decent stage), but that would totally screw up your slow motion bouncing on the moon stuff.

But OK let's say you get around that problem. Now you have to transfer many many hours of developed film onto videotape of the day(we'll ignore the developing film delay). So like in the old days of going to the cinema you'd need the NASA projectionist swapping rolls live on the fly throughout this process, while at the same time making it look live with near constant video feeds on the later missions for many hours at a time and sync it all to the live faked audio of the guys on the moon set and the guys on the ground including backroom scientists all reading from the exact same script. All that without any mistakes. And you'd have to feed that through a transmitter on or near the actual moon to keep the signal telemetry that the world, including America's enemies were monitoring, and do that for mission, after mission, after mission.

Never mind that even with the best of Hollywood cinema special effects technology today, we still can't make TV and Movie Apollo sequences look "real". Look at that Armstrong biopic First Man from 2018. Huge budget with the top professionals at the top of their game using all the tech available from model shots to CGI and usually both. The launch sequences look pretty convincing, the descent to the moon looks pretty good too(if over the top, cos Hollywood), right until the part where the moon itself is shown and then it looks wrong. The EVA moonwalk parts look fake as feck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1CgNrjVHBU

In essence in the late 1960's it was actually technically easier to actually go to the moon than to fake it.

Interesting points, for the time of the transmissions you were dealing with low resolution greyscale black and white TVs, and the reception is quite grainy.

Also the footage of said landing could be done weeks or months in advance.

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/news-photo/germany-landing-on-the-moon-on-television-screen-on-the-news-photo/549548081?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/news-photo/television-screen-grab-from-a-cbs-news-special-report-shows-news-photo/85737792?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/news-photo/screen-capture-from-a-cbs-news-special-report-depicts-news-photo/85747232?adppopup=true

Im not saying they didn't go, just saying it could be faked.

We landed on Mars... again? [Mod note post #1]

Comments