Pension

dublin49 · 03-03-2021 03:28PM

McGaggs wrote: »

That was an employer going bust without having funded the DB pension scheme fully. Not a pension scheme going bust.

not much consolation to the workers ,Pension providers wont go bust as all the risk is taken by the pension fund not the pension company.

The J Stands for Jay · 03-03-2021 03:29PM

dublin49 wrote: »

not much consolation to the workers ,Pension providers wont go bust as all the risk is taken by the pension fund not the pension company.

They still have pensions, just not as high as their employer promised them.

dublin49 · 03-03-2021 03:39PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Go back over what you said, which was; ". The amount of these " Funds" that have gone bust , leaving the investors high and dry is criminal".

Can you point to one or two examples of this - funds gone bust leaving investors high and dry?

You seem to be shifting the goalposts now, talking about investments of those funds, which is a different story.

So have any pension funds actually gone bust, as you suggested?

Waterford Crystals fund failed to meet commitments ,whether the company went bang or not ,the Fund failed,as I have said previously most funds don't fail but what does happen is Trustees make decisions about reducing payments and these would result in pensioners receiving less than they were expecting at retirement.

Cute Hoor · 03-03-2021 03:44PM

dublin49 wrote: »

Waterford Crystals fund failed to meet commitments ,whether the company went bang or not ,the Fund failed,as I have said previously most funds don't fail but what does happen is Trustees make decisions about reducing payments and these would result in pensioners receiving less than they were expecting at retirement.

Are you talking about DB or DC, can you give an example of a DC pension where Trustees make decision about reducing payments

AndrewJRenko · 03-03-2021 03:56PM

dublin49 wrote: »

Waterford Crystals fund failed to meet commitments ,whether the company went bang or not ,the Fund failed,as I have said previously most funds don't fail but what does happen is Trustees make decisions about reducing payments and these would result in pensioners receiving less than they were expecting at retirement.

The post I replied to was about pension companies : "Pension Companies ---- Never trust them or have any dealings with them . The amount of these " Funds" that have gone bust , leaving the investors high and dry is criminal .

Waterford Crystal is not a pension company. It is a glass and giftware company, entirely irrelevant to this issue.

The WC pension fund went bust because the committed benefits to retirees cost more than the employer was prepared to contribute. DB funds are generally unsustainable.

Now can we get back to Mountai's claim about numerous pension company funds going bust? It was nonsense, wasn't it?

dublin49 · 03-03-2021 04:23PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

T

Now can we get back to Mountai's claim about numerous pension company funds going bust? It was nonsense, wasn't it?

are you not conflating two separate entities there ,A pension Company is Mercers,Irish life,Canada life etc, Pension funds are the property of the individual company workers?

Bass Reeves · 03-03-2021 04:28PM

McGaggs wrote: »

It's the same limit for all pensions. DB schemes are unlikely to produce a lump sum that size, likely requiring 40 years servic and a salary of €300k.

No is not you should read the link you posted.

The 200k is an overall limit. However there is two other limits. If you have a PRSA, ARF or AMRF the limit is 25% of the fund. Unless you have a fund of over 800k you will not reach the 200k limit. To draw the 300k@20% tax you would need a fund of 2 million. The remainder of the money must remain in the ARF or AMRF.

In the case of a DB scheme this limit is set at 1.5 years wages of a lump sum. If your wages are 50k the biggest LS you can draw is 75k.

AndrewJRenko · 03-03-2021 04:33PM

dublin49 wrote: »

are you not conflating two separate entities there ,A pension Company is Mercers,Irish life,Canada life etc, Pension funds are the property of the individual company workers?

I'm not conflating anything. Pension companies do not manage defined benefit funds like Waterford.

So again, I'm asking Mountai for examples of the numerous funds going bust that he was talking about?

dublin49 · 03-03-2021 04:50PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm not conflating anything. Pension companies do not manage defined benefit funds like Waterford.

So again, I'm asking Mountai for examples of the numerous funds going bust that he was talking about?

Thats not true,I am in a defined benefit Pension fund and it is managed by a Pension company in conjunction with the trustees of our fund.

mountai · 03-03-2021 04:54PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm not conflating anything. Pension companies do not manage defined benefit funds like Waterford.

So again, I'm asking Mountai for examples of the numerous funds going bust that he was talking about?

Correct me if I'm wrong, did Irish Life get a Gubbetment bail out a few years ago??

AndrewJRenko · 03-03-2021 05:00PM

mountai wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, did Irish Life get a Gubbetment bail out a few years ago??

You said that pension funds went bust. Is this your second attempt to shift the goalposts by talking about one pension company?

Again, do you have any actual examples of pension company pension funds going bust as you suggested earlier?

This might be good time to state that you just got that wrong.

The bailout given to Irish Life and Permanent related to the mortgage business of PTSB, nothing to do with pension funds or pension investments.

mountai · 03-03-2021 05:04PM

Well did IL get bailed out???. Yes one company, the biggest in the land!!!

AndrewJRenko · 03-03-2021 05:06PM

dublin49 wrote: »

Thats not true,I am in a defined benefit Pension fund and it is managed by a Pension company in conjunction with the trustees of our fund.

They don't manage it. They might be administrators for it but they don't manage it. The trustees manage it and the employer decides how much to contribute. If it goes bust, that's down to the employer and the trustees, not the administrators.

AndrewJRenko · 03-03-2021 05:07PM

mountai wrote: »

Well did IL get bailed out???. Yes one company, the biggest in the land!!!

The bailout given to Irish Life and Permanent related to the mortgage business of PTSB, nothing to do with pension funds or pension investments.

Any sign of any pension company pension funds that have actually gone bust?

The J Stands for Jay · 03-03-2021 05:07PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No is not you should read the link you posted.

The 200k is an overall limit. However there is two other limits. If you have a PRSA, ARF or AMRF the limit is 25% of the fund. Unless you have a fund of over 800k you will not reach the 200k limit. To draw the 300k@20% tax you would need a fund of 2 million. The remainder of the money must remain in the ARF or AMRF.

In the case of a DB scheme this limit is set at 1.5 years wages of a lump sum. If your wages are 50k the biggest LS you can draw is 75k.

If I had a salary of €333,334, I could take a lump sum of €500k and would only require a fund of €500k to do so. I would pay €60k in tax and have €440k in my pocket.

Jim2007 · 03-03-2021 05:09PM

mountai wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, did Irish Life get a Gubbetment bail out a few years ago??

Yes you are absolutely wrong.

First there was not bailout, the government took a stake in the company - not one single shareholder received government money.

And second not one single pension fund went to the wall.

Now it is up to you to decide how long you want to continue being wrong.... but on a forum where the people deal in facts, you don't get far spouting unsubstantiated nonsense, you just get called out and found wanting.

Cute Hoor · 03-03-2021 05:11PM

mountai wrote: »

Well did IL get bailed out???. Yes one company, the biggest in the land!!!

When was that?

The J Stands for Jay · 03-03-2021 05:11PM

mountai wrote: »

Well did IL get bailed out???. Yes one company, the biggest in the land!!!

ILAC did not get bailed out.

dublin49 · 03-03-2021 05:18PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They don't manage it. They might be administrators for it but they don't manage it. The trustees manage it and the employer decides how much to contribute. If it goes bust, that's down to the employer and the trustees, not the administrators.

The pension company advise/outline on the investment strategy and in reality most trustees just follow their advice,the trustee involvement is minimal from my experience and one of the main reasons a fund would fail or come under pressure would be an disastrous investment strategy.Lack of funding is obviously the biggest issue,press reports suggest all the time that Irish Pensions are under funded and there is a major problem there.

AndrewJRenko · 03-03-2021 05:29PM

mountai wrote: »

Well did IL get bailed out???. Yes one company, the biggest in the land!!!

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_TSB

"During the Irish banking crisis the group was split. The profitable Irish Life Group was purchased by the government for €1.3 billion, and subsequently sold to Great-west Lifeco in July 2013.[7]"

Still waiting for examples of these number of pension company pension funds that went bust....

AndrewJRenko · 03-03-2021 05:34PM

dublin49 wrote: »

The pension company advise/outline on the investment strategy and in reality most trustees just follow their advice,the trustee involvement is minimal from my experience and one of the main reasons a fund would fail or come under pressure would be an disastrous investment strategy.Lack of funding is obviously the biggest issue,press reports suggest all the time that Irish Pensions are under funded and there is a major problem there.

Don't blame the administrators if your trustees are wasters.

Has any Irish investment management company given a "disastrous investment strategy" relative to their peers in the market? There all fairly conservative and fairly samey.

Cute Hoor · 03-03-2021 05:47PM

dublin49 wrote: »

The pension company advise/outline on the investment strategy and in reality most trustees just follow their advice,the trustee involvement is minimal from my experience and one of the main reasons a fund would fail or come under pressure would be an disastrous investment strategy.Lack of funding is obviously the biggest issue,press reports suggest all the time that Irish Pensions are under funded and there is a major problem there.

Are you talking about DB or DC pensions?

Geuze · 03-03-2021 05:47PM

mountai wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, did Irish Life get a Gubbetment bail out a few years ago??

I will correct you.

During the financial crises, PTSB, which owned IL at the time, sold IL to the State.

This was part of the efforts to re-capitalise the bank.

IL did not receive a "bail-out".

The State subsequently sold IL.

dublin49 · 03-03-2021 05:50PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Don't blame the administrators if your trustees are wasters.

Has any Irish investment management company given a "disastrous investment strategy" relative to their peers in the market? There all fairly conservative and fairly samey.

you are probably right ,they tend to make the same mistakes in unison like Lemmings over a cliff,

dublin49 · 03-03-2021 06:04PM

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Are you talking about DB or DC pensions?

My experience is primarily with DB,where there is a global pool of investment cash and I am aware that in DC pensions you tailor your own investment strategy but normally the choice is fairly limited along the lines of High,Medium or low risk.

mountai · 03-03-2021 06:12PM

In my initial post I pointed out the fact that not one Insurance sales man could give me the relevant figures I asked for . Why , I wondered . Many of my friends , have expressed their disappointment at the position they now find themselves in re pension payments . All my life I have been suspicious of " Greeks bearing gifts" . The Insurance business is founded on fear . Its well known , that an insurance company will do everything in its power to negate any claim and successive Governments refuse to grasp the nettle and bring about real reform . " Investments can fall " the bywords of the industry . Tell that to the members of failed funds , Irish Shipping comes to mind . Fancy brochures , " Millions" put into minds of ordinary people , by slick salesmen in suits , not for me , Thank God .

Cute Hoor · 03-03-2021 06:16PM

dublin49 wrote: »

My experience is primarily with DB,where there is a global pool of investment cash and I am aware that in DC pensions you tailor your own investment strategy but normally the choice is fairly limited along the lines of High,Medium or low risk.

To the best of my knowledge (and I'm totally open to correction) there is no such thing as DB pensions any more, DB pensions have to be wound down (an interesting scenario in it's own right) but I don't think any company is offering DB to new entrants any more.

With DC you effectively have control over where it is invested, in association with the fund providers obviously, it may not perform as well as you might like from time to time but I can't see how it would go fully belly-up.

Cute Hoor · 03-03-2021 06:17PM

mountai wrote: »

In my initial post I pointed out the fact that not one Insurance sales man could give me the relevant figures I asked for . Why , I wondered . Many of my friends , have expressed their disappointment at the position they now find themselves in re pension payments . All my life I have been suspicious of " Greeks bearing gifts" . The Insurance business is founded on fear . Its well known , that an insurance company will do everything in its power to negate any claim and successive Governments refuse to grasp the nettle and bring about real reform . " Investments can fall " the bywords of the industry . Tell that to the members of failed funds , Irish Shipping comes to mind . Fancy brochures , " Millions" put into minds of ordinary people , by slick salesmen in suits , not for me , Thank God .

Are you confusing Pension with Insurance?

The J Stands for Jay · 03-03-2021 06:21PM

mountai wrote: »

In my initial post I pointed out the fact that not one Insurance sales man could give me the relevant figures I asked for . Why , I wondered . Many of my friends , have expressed their disappointment at the position they now find themselves in re pension payments . All my life I have been suspicious of " Greeks bearing gifts" . The Insurance business is founded on fear . Its well known , that an insurance company will do everything in its power to negate any claim and successive Governments refuse to grasp the nettle and bring about real reform . " Investments can fall " the bywords of the industry . Tell that to the members of failed funds , Irish Shipping comes to mind . Fancy brochures , " Millions" put into minds of ordinary people , by slick salesmen in suits , not for me , Thank God .

Irish Shipping, from a quick Google, seems to be a case where the government shafted the employees. Nothing about a pension fund going belly up.

The J Stands for Jay · 03-03-2021 06:23PM

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Are you confusing Pension with Insurance?

I think they're one of those people who think pensions are 'magic', rather than an investment in equity and bond markets with a tax break and drawdown restrictions added. Friends complained, but no-one thought that it might have something to do with the dot com bubble, or the credit crunch or whatever recession came at the wrong time for them.

Pension

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