Penalty points on a learner permit

frozenfrozen · 28-02-2021 11:43PM

Exactly don't worry until it arrives in the post. The garda could have been trying to scare you or maybe thought it was overkill when they looked at the points and fine after and just leave it off

And if it does arrive then don't worry either its just like winning the shit lottery

Turbohymac · 28-02-2021 11:59PM

You now seem to admit that you were at fault .. by saying that you didn't cause an accident or any damage.. But honestly I would question your full driving license holder that was accompanying you. As it seems fairly obvious that the unmarked police car had to alter their speed or brake harsh to avoid you..
You didn't have an accident on this occasion but your manner of driving was clearly observed by the gardai..enough for them to pull you over .I honestly don't think any gardai are out there to target learner drivers if their level of driving is adequate and their car is all in order and accompanied by full license holder. However its quite possible that you got over stressed when you stalled the car at the junction and then unintentionally pulled out without restarting your observation before moving off.. and its also quite possible that your lack of experience failed to properly observe the approaching police car ie the speed it was traveling at and the distance between it and you..
I would honestly have a talk with your instructor/full license holder that was with you..
Were they observing the traffic on the main road and had they made any comment prior to you making the maneuver onto the main road.. if they observed the unmarked police car did they comment or were they asleep..
And if they endorsed your manner of driving why did this full license holder or instructor not engage with the gardai
As a full license holder myself I would always keep an eye out for a learner that I would be with. And I would honestly know if they were safe before proceeding.at junctionsetc..and if a garda pulled us over I would have a damn good idea of what had happened ..
As before I think you should have a better chat with your full driver and possibly get a better driving instructor..
I honestly don't think the gardai were to blame in this issue.
As for getting a solicitor and fighting this in court..its difficult when it's any learner driver versus the gardai and most likely they might even have dashcam evidence..
Nobody's dead or injured and we all make mistakes..it was unfortunate for you but possibly change instructor and get more driving experience..
Good luck

km991148 · 01-03-2021 12:23AM

Who was the full license holder? Instructor or family/friend?

Would the normally be quite competent driver? Did you discuss the incident at all?

If it's not a professional instructor, do you have one as well?

FrankC21 · 01-03-2021 12:56AM

I remember when I was a learner, failed the test 3 times, first test was 5 minutes into the test, beating the red fullstop, the test instructor told me to go back to the test centre, you failed he said.

Second one was, after doing reversing round the bend, i forgot to adjust me side mirror, so when I took off I adjusted my mirror while car was on the move, instructor told me stop you failed go back to the test centre.

Third one was a bit alright just failed with mostly observations.

It was costly, I even went to two different companies airport driving and ism.

Advice is be confident. From my experience, the more you drive, the more you fail then the more you learn.

Turbohymac · 01-03-2021 08:11AM

Hi again..op.
Having read your original post over again. It's now very clear that you didn't have your driving instructor with you .only a friend with a full license.. again they clearly failed to help you out at the junction and the red warning flag for the full driver should have been clear when you stalled the car.. also I have no doubt the gardai certainly spoke to this full license holder and at minimum to confirm that they had a full license.
Also you mentioned that your instructor has advised you to book your driving test..well it's fairly obvious that you also need a Very Good driving instructor that will easily identify your nervousness and weak points in driving..
Clearly stalling at junctions and getting mega nervous and muddled up would require more patience and practice before even dreaming about applying for a test.
A good driving instructor should easily sort out your current issues and should ensure that you can take off easily from junctions and hill starts in a much safer environment than at a junction heading onto a larger road..
Good luck again and get a good driving instructor and refrain from driving with your full license holder until you gain more confidence and driving experience.from instructor.
Now move ahead and take positive action..and if you get 3points it still won't affect your insurance..
But take the advice here from many posters..stop blaming other road users .

km991148 · 01-03-2021 10:56AM

FrankC21 wrote: »

From my experience, the more you drive, the more you fail then the more you learn.

As is often said.. this process continues well after your test - its a continual learning process.

That's why when mistakes happen, try not to allow them to impact you in terms of anxiety. Just accept that its bound to happen. Over time hopefully you minimise the frequency/ severity of them!.

km991148 · 01-03-2021 11:00AM

Turbohymac wrote: »

Hi again..op.
Having read your original post over again. It's now very clear that you didn't have your driving instructor with you

This is why I was asking who was with you (but didn't want to assume!).

Its important to have a qualified and good driver who is able to give instruction (preferably an actual instructor).

Yes its more expensive in the short term, but probably not much more expensive in the long term (considering what you will be taught, amount of times it takes to pass etc).

Ireland is a bit of a joke in terms of minimum driving standards and how much professional tuition needed/expected (and it shows in terms of driving standard - although slowly improving)

Henry Ford III · 01-03-2021 11:33AM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

.....They wouldnt of had to suddenly break at all, they where a fair bit away from me when I pulled out so would have seen me from where they were.....

If that were the case they wouldn't have pulled you over.

Mimon · 01-03-2021 11:52AM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Yes I agree & lesson learned, I wont do it again but as a learner driver who made a mistake, that mistake will be on my license for 3 years, long after im a learner and no damage was caused. If they had to slam on the breaks or I drove out right infront of them id understand as thats dangerous driving but those situations didnt happen.

Yeh, a bit of empathy from the Guard was definitely called for with you being a learner driver.

A reasonable Guard would have realised that you would have learned your lesson from just being pulled over and talked to.

Samuel T. Cogley · 01-03-2021 11:56AM

Sounds like you went to go when it was safe, stalled, then continued the maneuver when it wasn't safe. You then had the bad luck to encounter a Guard in a bad mood. They may possibly have had a change of heart when they got back to the station so don't worry until the paper work actually arrives.

Spook_ie · 01-03-2021 01:45PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Yes I agree & lesson learned, I wont do it again but as a learner driver who made a mistake, that mistake will be on my license for 3 years, long after im a learner and no damage was caused. If they had to slam on the breaks or I drove out right infront of them id understand as thats dangerous driving but those situations didnt happen.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but IMO the qualified driver sitting with you should be sharing the blame, I'm surprised they let them off without so much as a word, in my book if you deserve a fine then they deserve a fine too.

Isambard · 01-03-2021 02:01PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Sounds like you went to go when it was safe, stalled, then continued the maneuver when it wasn't safe. You then had the bad luck to encounter a Guard in a bad mood. They may possibly have had a change of heart when they got back to the station so don't worry until the paper work actually arrives.

fully agree. Everyone has to learn and you'd think they'd cut you some slack. I wasn't there though, the Gard was.

Airyfairy12 · 01-03-2021 02:42PM

Thanks everyone, I rang the garda station this morning, the guard I was speaking to was a bit taken aback by the charge I received and offered to give me the name of the guard I was dealing with. Unfortunately she hadn't put her details into the file yet, he asked me to describe what she looked like but she was wearing a mask. He seemed quite interested to know who this guard was but as I couldnt describe her he couldnt help me. I'll call back in a week or two and hopefully by then she will have put her details into the system.
I was also speaking to a garda friend/acquaintance who told me that in such a case were someone drives out onto the road with a car already on the main road but causes no damage or harm and considering im a learner driver with L plates visible and a fully licensed driver in the car, for a first offence a warning should be given. She said I shouldnt get a double fine for being a learner either.
I was already in 3rd, going into 4th gear by the time the guards caught up with me so there's no way I was obstructing them when I drove onto the road.
I rang the ombudsmen and was advised to leave a complaint so as soon a I get the name of the garda I was dealing with and the guard who stayed in the car, ill be making a complaint and hopefully have the penalty points removed atleast.

Samuel T. Cogley · 01-03-2021 02:50PM

Ah here as they say. This isn't a case for GSOC. If anything a GSOC complaint will make her double down on the points.

Tippman24 · 01-03-2021 02:55PM

You do not get double points. What you have is that the numbers of points that accrue on your licence with a possible suspension from driving are less. Twelve points means suspension if you have a full Driving Licence but i think (?) it is seven if on a learner permit.

Witcher · 01-03-2021 02:56PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thanks everyone, I rang the garda station this morning, the guard I was speaking to was a bit taken aback by the charge I received and offered to give me the name of the guard I was dealing with. Unfortunately she hadn't put her details into the file yet, he asked me to describe what she looked like but she was wearing a mask. He seemed quite interested to know who this guard was but as I couldnt describe her he couldnt help me. I'll call back in a week or two and hopefully by then she will have put her details into the system.
I was also speaking to a garda friend/acquaintance who told me that in such a case were someone drives out onto the road with a car already on the main road but causes no damage or harm and considering im a learner driver with L plates visible and a fully licensed driver in the car, for a first offence a warning should be given. She said I shouldnt get a double fine for being a learner either.
I was already in 3rd, going into 4th gear by the time the guards caught up with me so there's no way I was obstructing them when I drove onto the road.
I rang the ombudsmen and was advised to leave a complaint so as soon a I get the name of the garda I was dealing with and the guard who stayed in the car, ill be making a complaint and hopefully have the penalty points removed atleast.

There's no 'should give a warning' rule, it's completely at the member's discretion. Furthermore, how would they know it's your first offence or your 10th?

You don't seem to understand that 'I didn't cause any accident or harm' is not a get out of jail free card. You don't have to injure anyone or cause an accident to be driving like a cock. In reprimanding you for your driving the Garda is attempting to stop that happening in future.

A GSOC complaint will not see the FCPN being quashed as the Ombudsman wasn't there to observe your manner of driving and they have nothing to go on bar the word of a learner driver.

Turbohymac · 01-03-2021 03:03PM

Hi op.
I'm not so sure that you're dealing with this correctly..from experience pulling out onto the main road in front of any oncoming car and now saying you couldn't have obstructed them cos you were going from third gear into fourth when they pulled you over..wow this means that you were possibly only traveling at 30/40 km per hour..
And being honest the gardai could easily be doing 120km even if that main road was a 100 km zone..
This means their car would be eating up 50to 60 meters of road every second..
I'm not sure how other posters will now respond to your actions today.
But if you had read back through the many helpful posts to your initial query.
Then I honestly think you should be spending time looking up a good driving instructor. And not drive with any other full driver until you get more lessons.
And please admit to your mistakes as a new learner driver in which you also clearly claim to suffer from nervousness..
Don't dig yourself into a deeper hole ..
Everything you mention clearly indicates that you pulled out after stalling the car and having to restart this all took time..then obstructed the police car as you couldn't have been doing anything more than 40km in third gear..
Please rethink..your actions
The gardai were correct here to take action..I don't think we're getting the honest full story either

frozenfrozen · 01-03-2021 03:03PM

forget the gsoc part and try to deescalate. You just want there to be no fine and points. You wouldn't have made a thread if you had just got a bollocking from a garda so get it back to that point and forget about it

garv123 · 01-03-2021 03:04PM

Sounds like she was in bad form, gave you a telling off and didnt fill out any paper work.

I reckon you'll hear nothing more about it.

Henry Ford III · 01-03-2021 03:08PM

It's the inconsistency that's the thing here.

OP has gone from protesting innocence, to admitting guilt, and back again.

Witcher · 01-03-2021 03:08PM

garv123 wrote: »

Sounds like she was in bad form, gave you a telling off and didnt fill out any paper work.

I reckon you'll hear nothing more about it.

Garda has 107 days after the incident to issue the FCPN.

sirmixalot · 01-03-2021 03:13PM

garv123 wrote: »

Sounds like she was in bad form, gave you a telling off and didnt fill out any paper work.

I reckon you'll hear nothing more about it.

THIS

Airyfairy12 · 01-03-2021 03:14PM

Turbohymac wrote: »

Hi op.
I'm not so sure that you're dealing with this correctly..from experience pulling out onto the main road in front of any oncoming car and now saying you couldn't have obstructed them cos you were going from third gear into fourth when they pulled you over..wow this means that you were possibly only traveling at 30/40 km per hour..
And being honest the gardai could easily be doing 120km even if that main road was a 100 km zone..
This means their car would be eating up 50to 60 meters of road every second..
I'm not sure how other posters will now respond to your actions today.
But if you had read back through the many helpful posts to your initial query.
Then I honestly think you should be spending time looking up a good driving instructor. And not drive with any other full driver until you get more lessons.
And please admit to your mistakes as a new learner driver in which you also clearly claim to suffer from nervousness..
Don't dig yourself into a deeper hole ..
Everything you mention clearly indicates that you pulled out after stalling the car and having to restart this all took time..then obstructed the police car as you couldn't have been doing anything more than 40km in third gear..
Please rethink..your actions
The gardai were correct here to take action..I don't think we're getting the honest full story either

Thanks, im not debating any of that, what im disputing is the severity of the punishment. 3 points & a double fine on a quiet rural area when I had both L plates on display and a fully licensed driver in the car.

Witcher · 01-03-2021 03:18PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thanks, im not debating any of that, what im disputing is the severity of the punishment. 3 points & a double fine on a quiet rural area when I had both L plates on display and a fully licensed driver in the car. A warning or fine or even one penalty point and I would have accepted it and moved on but 3 and a double fine is too much.

The Garda doesn't decide how many points are given, they can't choose to give you one point if the offence is three.

Re-assess your driving and learn from it.

ohnonotgmail · 01-03-2021 03:19PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thanks everyone, I rang the garda station this morning, the guard I was speaking to was a bit taken aback by the charge I received and offered to give me the name of the guard I was dealing with. Unfortunately she hadn't put her details into the file yet, he asked me to describe what she looked like but she was wearing a mask. He seemed quite interested to know who this guard was but as I couldnt describe her he couldnt help me. I'll call back in a week or two and hopefully by then she will have put her details into the system.
I was also speaking to a garda friend/acquaintance who told me that in such a case were someone drives out onto the road with a car already on the main road but causes no damage or harm and considering im a learner driver with L plates visible and a fully licensed driver in the car, for a first offence a warning should be given. She said I shouldnt get a double fine for being a learner either.
I was already in 3rd, going into 4th gear by the time the guards caught up with me so there's no way I was obstructing them when I drove onto the road.
I rang the ombudsmen and was advised to leave a complaint so as soon a I get the name of the garda I was dealing with and the guard who stayed in the car, ill be making a complaint and hopefully have the penalty points removed atleast.

if you had only just got it into 4th then the guards probably did have to brake. If they did have to brake then you did not yield properly. Forget about making a complaint. GSOC will do nothing with it. The garda has discretion and GSOC will not tell them they don't.

sirmixalot · 01-03-2021 03:22PM

Witcher wrote: »

The Garda doesn't decide how many points are given, they can't choose to give you one point if the offence is three.

Re-assess your driving and learn from it.

Not true, I got 3 for speeding which he told me I'd get.

Witcher · 01-03-2021 03:22PM

sirmixalot wrote: »

Not true, I got 3 for speeding which he told me I'd get.

Because it is three points for speeding....

sirmixalot · 01-03-2021 03:24PM

Witcher wrote: »

Because it is three points for speeding....

Read what you wrote then read my reply to it.

The Guards do decide what points are given. You are saying they don't which is untrue.

frozenfrozen · 01-03-2021 03:27PM

sirmixalot wrote: »

Read what you wrote then read my reply to it.

The Guards do decide what points are given. You are saying they don't which is untrue.

so a guard can choose to give someone 69 points for speeding?

Airyfairy12 · 01-03-2021 03:30PM

frozenfrozen wrote: »

so a guard can choose to give someone 69 points for speeding?

I was told that its at the discretion of the guard. Obviously theres a limit on how many points they can give.

Penalty points on a learner permit

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