Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward

pixelburp · 23-02-2021 03:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

4 hours is gonna put a lot of people off I suspect. And if the initial response is bad then it could flounder after that.

Oh yeah for sure, but then that's why like The Irishman, I'll be watching it in two stages at least and possibly won't be as problematic for folks at home streaming.

The White Wolf · 23-02-2021 04:08PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

4 hours is gonna put a lot of people off I suspect. And if the initial response is bad then it could flounder after that.

4 hours is a challenge but people will be watching at home where they can pause and come back to as they wish. I believe there will be a Chapter breakdown on the toggle bar on HBO Max which might help people navigate the film easier. In terms of how it will do you need to look at a couple of things:

Characters that are on a pantheon of American and International Pop culture.

The steady but purposeful increased coverage it's receiving now (Vanity Fair, Variety, etc).

Being released at a time many people will be on a break from work.

It's been given a week's breathing room between its release and the release of Godzilla vs Kong.

And of course the behind the scenes sh1tshow and almost hallowed mythology it has achieved.

I'm not great at being a numbers man but I would hope all combines into a worthy venture for all involved. Snyder has been consistent in saying it's for the fans and that he's ready for nothing further to come from it, so even if the worst happens at least there's nothing more riding on it.

Just as an aside I don't think critics should get an advanced showing beyond those Snyder has used to help get the project off the ground like Grace Randolph, so their impact in the opening days should be minimal.

FunLover18 · 23-02-2021 04:52PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

Just as an aside I don't think critics should get an advanced showing beyond those Snyder has used to help get the project off the ground like Grace Randolph, so their impact in the opening days should be minimal.

I don't think it's a good idea or even remotely fair for studios to start picking and choosing which critics get to see advanced screenings. Obviously we have to trust critics to be objective but that's still a slippery slope.

23-02-2021 04:57PM

Ya, generally preventing critics from viewing something until general release comes across as a bad product trying to avoid bad pr.

pixelburp · 23-02-2021 05:02PM

Preventing reviews would come across as a little bit petty TBH; this isn't a new, unknown entity anyway. Chances are most of the audience will have already seen Justice League anyway, be they critics or punter. And anyone who has seen more than one Zack Synder film knows what's in store with this re-do. I don't like the phrase "Critic proof" but it's certainly a film where professional opinion is broadly irrelevant.

ThePott · 23-02-2021 05:24PM

It's funny because I think the most blatant example of the selective reviewers was the Wonder Woman 84 reviews.

Personally I think some people exaggerate the appeal or even awareness of this film. I think outside of fans most people are not aware of what this is or the story behind it.

The White Wolf · 23-02-2021 05:26PM

How does the Mandolorian work as a comparison in terms of reviews? Are they released in advance of each episode? From what I recall it's pretty tight if not same day which suggests they're watching same time as everyone else.

Don't see how this is any different to be honest.

johnny_ultimate · 23-02-2021 05:39PM

There is long established norms and etiquette for reviews of tv shows and films alike. To only give access to proven fans and cheerleaders is a shortcut to terrible criticism.

There is absolutely nothing remarkable or special about this particular production that deserves exceptional treatment. I’d say that about any film, btw.

CramCycle · 23-02-2021 05:54PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

How does the Mandolorian work as a comparison in terms of reviews? Are they released in advance of each episode? From what I recall it's pretty tight if not same day which suggests they're watching same time as everyone else.

Don't see how this is any different to be honest.

The RTE and Newstalk reviewers seem to get access to the first episode (or two) a few days in advance based on radio reviews and the RTE reviewer tends to be fairly honest. On one or two occasions one of the guest reviewers has openly admitted, they are Star Wars, Trek, whatever fans and are biased but they nearly always have another reviewer there to give a real world review as well. They will on occasion point out when something was held back and it was clearly because it was sh1te.

ThePott · 23-02-2021 06:07PM

With most shows they get the first few episodes, in the case of WandaVision for example they got the first 3 episodes.
For movies there's embargo dates, in this day and age that includes both social media embargo dates and then review embargo dates.
I do think there'll be advanced reviews for this, it seems unnecessary. At most possibly I could see the same people Snyder is allowing himself to be interviewed by might get an early look.

The problem as many have pointed out is that with big IPs critics can often be Youtubers and Bloggers who are will give positive reviews regardless because they get to go to special events, get merch, meet the stars etc. I think for a film like this critical reaction is largely irrelevant anyway.

23-02-2021 06:10PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

How does the Mandolorian work as a comparison in terms of reviews? Are they released in advance of each episode? From what I recall it's pretty tight if not same day which suggests they're watching same time as everyone else.

Don't see how this is any different to be honest.

Except you want to specifically only allow access to reviewers who will review positively. Overall, I would suspect that the Mandalorian was avoiding initial mixed reviews as they apparently didn't give out screeners for the first episode, spoilers were the claimed reason. Disney and Star Wars can get away with that more so however all of the Star Wars films did do early screenings for critics.

In this case, you seem to want to restrict critics from seeing for fear of negative reviews hence allowing positive reviewers. Personally, I don't think critic reviews matter a whole lot for this. Eg the likes of Deadpool reviewed poorly with critics and it really did not matter. If the reviews were atrociously bad, that might put off general audiences although I suspect the biggest market for this is not general audiences.

FunLover18 · 23-02-2021 07:18PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

How does the Mandolorian work as a comparison in terms of reviews? Are they released in advance of each episode? From what I recall it's pretty tight if not same day which suggests they're watching same time as everyone else.

Don't see how this is any different to be honest.

I may have misunderstood, I got the impression you were suggesting only certain critics who helped the campaign should get advanced screenings. There's a strong possibility this would skew early reviews in the films favour which I don't think is right.

kerplun k · 23-02-2021 10:55PM

ThePott wrote: »

Vanity Fair just did an in-depth article on the Snyder Cut.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/02/the-true-story-of-justice-league-snyder-cut?utm_social-type=owned&utm_source=twitter&mbid=social_twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_brand=vf

People are only talking about one thing though

I just finished it. Not sure why people are taking about Leto, the piece barely mentions him.

After reading it I want this film to succeed more than ever. Snyder Just sounds like a really nice guy and I hope this film can bring him and his family some closure.

Can’t believe WB wanted to release the unfinished, uncut, B&W version from his laptop just to get that Snyder cut monkey off their backs.

CramCycle · 23-02-2021 11:12PM

The truth is, no matter how good or bad it is, it can't be as bad as justice league was and I sat through that. Zack has the ability to make good movies so hopefully someone half decent was there quietly helping with the editing.

I'm looking forward to it, might even take the day of work I have so many holidays built up.

The Phantom Pain · 25-02-2021 01:04AM

http://twitter.com/ray8fisher/status/1364643265421664263

dublinman1990 · 25-02-2021 04:49AM

If Sky Cinema had permission from WB to promote ZSJL; they could use the same strategy to promote the film as something similar to a Sky Original movie. That could allow more Sky customers to actually see the movie if they had a interest in it. But we don't actually know how many Sky customers here in Ireland have the Sky Cinema channels included with their own Sky subscriptions or other platforms. If people are fans of this movie & don't have those packages with them; where does that leave them; iTunes, Google Play or Blu-ray.

senordingdong · 25-02-2021 08:41AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

4 hours is gonna put a lot of people off I suspect. And if the initial response is bad then it could flounder after that.

I'm not sure it will. The Irishman was a huge success and I'm not comparing Snyder to Scorcesse but I presume one of the biggest concerns WB had about ZSJL was how bloated it was. But if it is carrying a four hour runtime, alot of the problems associated with the bloat could mellow out.
Putting in a streaming service or even making it episodic are legitimate alternatives now.
I think it's going to be the shakeup that the superhero genre needs.

I think that DCEU were damned if they do and damned if they don't in regards to copying MCU or going their own path.

Need a Username · 25-02-2021 12:16PM

I don’t understand how being 4 hours long would put people off.

They can stop it whenever they like and take a break or resume another day.

I will want to watch it in one viewing myself.

pixelburp · 25-02-2021 12:22PM

Need a Username wrote: »

I don’t understand how being 4 hours long would put people off.

They can stop it whenever they like and take a break or resume another day.

I will want to watch it in one viewing myself.

I think it comes down to pacing and flab: if it's 4 hours of essential moments, scenes and so on, great! If it's just extra time spent spinning wheels then I can see a reluctance. Like, the Knightmare scene. I just don't see the point in returning to it, beyond Synder thinking it's cool to have Batman in a big trenchcoat. It's a dream sequence and doesn't really say or do anything to the story (assuming it follows the same pattern from BvS that is)

The Irishman dragged IMO because a lot of scenes added very little; it was mostly in small ways, shots going on way longer than what seemed necessary against what the scene was trying to sell. I can't recall whole scenes I speculated could be dropped mind you. Comparing that with something like the Expanded Cut of the various LOTR movies, and while beefy themselves, added useful context, character moments and even whole set-pieces. They felt "more", but in a good way.

25-02-2021 12:42PM

Need a Username wrote: »

I don’t understand how being 4 hours long would put people off.

They can stop it whenever they like and take a break or resume another day.

I will want to watch it in one viewing myself.

There's only a handful of movies that have that runtime. With The LOTR extended cuts it just about works but I would say the cinema cuts work out better. Something like a cinematic masterpiece eg Once Upon A Time In America, it does work and I'd happily watch it in one run.

But then something like wonderwoman 84, think it was just over 3 hours and I was looking at my watch and waiting for it to end. The fact I'd have to contemplate splitting a film into pieces tends to be more a reflection of the quality of the film. If it turned out to be a fantastic 4 hours, I'd happily dedicate an afternoon to it. If it's a director given too much freedom then I'll tend to just not watch it. And everything about this film seems like egoism could be a serious issue.

FunLover18 · 25-02-2021 12:52PM

Need a Username wrote: »

I don’t understand how being 4 hours long would put people off.

They can stop it whenever they like and take a break or resume another day.

I will want to watch it in one viewing myself.

It's not an issue for people genuinely interested/invested but as I've said previously I think that's a a small number. For people who are just looking for a movie to watch on a night in, 4 hours is a big commitment. I love superhero movies, I wasn't phased one bit by the runtime of Endgame but I was fully invested and I think a lot of people turned out for the event. The JL and DCEU doesn't come close to having the same level of interest amongst the general public. I reckon I could ask everyone at work if they knew about the Snyder cut and only a handful of people would know what I was talking about let alone willing to sacrifice 4 hours to watch it. At the moment the only reason I want to watch it is so I can have an opinion but I honestly dont think that's worth 4 hours of my time so I'll probably give it a miss.

johnny_ultimate · 25-02-2021 12:55PM

I’ve no problem with extended running times - I’ve seen a good few films that are several hours longer than four hours, and they’ve all justified that time investment as they have a strong formal or thematic motivation for it.

The problem with a lot of modern blockbusters is not that they’re longer, but that they don’t really justify their running times. They overload the films with plot and character, at the expense of pacing. The truth is a lot of modern superhero films are inherently shallow, silly things - and 150 mins plus of self-serious, convoluted plotting can’t overcome that. Something like Avengers Endgame for me really overestimated how interesting some of its various plot threads and characters actually were.

Even a film as acclaimed and significant as Apocalypse Now - which has multiple different cuts to compare and contrast - shows how important pacing can be, and how adding in stuff that’s technically strong and substantial on its own terms can detrimentally impact the flow of the movie.

If Snyder’s Justice League is four hours of good, clever ideas and storytelling, then four hours will 100% be justified. If it’s two hours of strong material and two hours of glorified deleted scenes and fan service, it likely won’t be worthwhile. A filmmaker is perfectly entitled to make a long film - they just need to ensure the audience is properly rewarded.

Need a Username · 25-02-2021 01:11PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

It's not an issue for people genuinely interested/invested but as I've said previously I think that's a a small number. For people who are just looking for a movie to watch on a night in, 4 hours is a big commitment. I love superhero movies, I wasn't phased one bit by the runtime of Endgame but I was fully invested and I think a lot of people turned out for the event. The JL and DCEU doesn't come close to having the same level of interest amongst the general public. I reckon I could ask everyone at work if they knew about the Snyder cut and only a handful of people would know what I was talking about let alone willing to sacrifice 4 hours to watch it. At the moment the only reason I want to watch it is so I can have an opinion but I honestly dont think that's worth 4 hours of my time so I'll probably give it a miss.

I agree that the amount of people who know about the Snyder Cut is probably small and yes 4 hours is long time.

But my point is that no one has to watch it in one go. So I don’t see why anyone would be put off.

senordingdong · 25-02-2021 02:26PM

I was presuming that much of the excess was the introduction of main characters who weren't afforded a solo movie.
I certainly hope its not more brooding from the main two.

FunLover18 · 25-02-2021 02:28PM

Need a Username wrote: »

I agree that the amount of people who know about the Snyder Cut is probably small and yes 4 hours is long time.

But my point is that no one has to watch it in one go. So I don’t see why anyone would be put off.

You don't see why someone wouldn't want to sacrifice four hours for something they only have a mild interest in? It doesn't matter if it's one go or spread out, it's still four hours.

pixelburp · 25-02-2021 02:30PM

senordingdong wrote: »

I was presuming that much of the excess was the introduction of main characters who weren't afforded a solo movie.
I certainly hope its not more brooding from the main two.

Given the surprising return of the Knightmare world, and the inclusion of Joker within it, I daresay we're getting precisely the latter.

FunLover18 wrote: »

You don't see why someone wouldn't want to sacrifice four hours for something they only have a mild interest in? It doesn't matter if it's one go or spread out, it's still four hours.

Yeah, it's a 4-hour investment I'd get that. And I think the mental math works differently with a movie than, say, four 1 hour instalments of a mini-series.

FunLover18 · 25-02-2021 02:41PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah, it's a 4-hour investment I'd get that. And I think the mental math works differently with a movie than, say, four 1 hour instalments of a mini-series.

I hope I didn't come across too snarky. Your point about the 1 hour installments is a good one though, if this is edited as a movie there aren't going to be natural breaks like 1 hour installments would have, meaning there aren't going to be lures to bring you into the next episode, it's a four hour film where the director is trusting the audience to stick with it and that's a different beast entirely.

Need a Username · 25-02-2021 02:43PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

You don't see why someone wouldn't want to sacrifice four hours for something they only have a mild interest in? It doesn't matter if it's one go or spread out, it's still four hours.

If someone considers watching a movie a “sacrifice” then I think maybe they just don’t like movies.

Four hours is two movies. Or an hour each evening.

It isn’t as big a deal as people are making out here.

Many people binge a TV series in a day or a few days even when only being a casual viewer. A four movie is just the thing.

ThePott · 25-02-2021 02:52PM

I am surprised that they haven't split it into two two hour chunks. If nothing else because Snyder has said that if it were to play cinemas there was an intermission built in, from a purely promotional standpoint splitting it in two would make sense.

senordingdong · 25-02-2021 02:56PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Given the surprising return of the Knightmare world, and the inclusion of Joker within it, I daresay we're getting precisely the latter.

Hopefully the knightmare scene has reasonable context.
But this thread has helped to tame expectations.

Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

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Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward