Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2020/21- Mod Notes #1

Headshot · 22-02-2021 12:56PM

I feel sorry for Martial that he's confidence looks shot but he doesnt help himself with his work rate

DM_7 · 22-02-2021 12:58PM

Liam O wrote: »

Not having that. Martial has everything to be a striker. Pace, skills and decent in the air. Looked to be a decent finisher once upon a time but with a penchant for missing some easy chances.

There is an elephant in the room with him and that's work rate. Playing with him up front throws the whole team off kilter. Like Pogba in midfield, they just don't work and it means everyone else has to put in that bit more work which leads to players being out of position and gaps appearing.

It sickens me that him, Pogba and De Gea are the highest paid players at the club and have not shown any development or real willing to work while on their current contracts. Been the issue with the club since Fergie. Players have made it so there's no carrot. What has Martial done to justify his contract?

I have to say Cavani's arrival and then comparison between Rashford and Martial out left has really highlighted the work rate issue.

I think Martial did a huge amount right last season and built up a lot of credit from a low point. But Cavani, following on from Bruno has shown all the forwards they can work back to help the team and actually add to attacking strength through recovering the ball.

We have even seen Greenwood stepping up, there was a great recovery run mid week to clear a ball that went behind AWB only about 8 yards out that I would not have expected in the past.

Martial's work off the ball could be more acceptable if he was scoring goals and placing himself in positions that take advantage of the lesser responsibility.

Shanotheslayer · 22-02-2021 01:08PM

I think the absolute ultimate requirement for a striker is being cynical. Aguero/Lewen/Cavani/Ibra/Kane give them a chance and most times they will bury it.

For me Martial doesn't have that. Agree with his pace,skills and decent in air but unless Bruno is going to be creating 5-6 amazing chances for him a game he won't be scoring. I would put him in the same category somewhat as Sterling in terms of being cynical.

From the minimal amount I saw of Greenwood he looks better in that regard.

Mitch Connor · 22-02-2021 01:20PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

I think the absolute ultimate requirement for a striker is being cynical. Aguero/Lewen/Cavani/Ibra/Kane give them a chance and most times they will bury it.

For me Martial doesn't have that. Agree with his pace,skills and decent in air but unless Bruno is going to be creating 5-6 amazing chances for him a game he won't be scoring. I would put him in the same category somewhat as Sterling in terms of being cynical.

From the minimal amount I saw of Greenwood he looks better in that regard.

Previously I would have said a strength of Martial was his finishing.

He was poor at putting himself in position to finish.... but if he got a chance he was accurate and a good finisher, imo.

This season he isn't even that. His finishing this season is terrible, and way below what I would have expected off him previously.

Lord TSC · 22-02-2021 01:25PM

https://twitter.com/david_ornstein/status/1363783179144994816?s=21

Summary of the article from Reddit:

Sancho still a target for United but they're not as determined to sign him. Club is unlikely to embark on big spending spree for a small number of players and is probably going to only make one marquee signing with "creative" solutions elsewhere.

(Seems to be we'd spend big on a defender, like Kounde, and then look for a striker who isn't a Galactico, but more reasonably priced)

Man United sign 3 Derby County u15s for about £750k in total. Rooney also held a meeting with youth players saying standards need to be raised. "A source said: “He is genuinely interested in the whole club in way that’s not been seen for a long time in a manager.”"

DM_7 · 22-02-2021 01:27PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Previously I would have said a strength of Martial was his finishing.

He was poor at putting himself in position to finish.... but if he got a chance he was accurate and a good finisher, imo.

This season he isn't even that. His finishing this season is terrible, and way below what I would have expected off him previously.

As Headshot says, his confidence is gone.

I think he could actually be trying too hard (ironic) with his shooting and when he has time he overthinks, or tries to smash the ball. He doesn't seem to be playing in that natural way he used to when shooting.

Mitch Connor · 22-02-2021 01:28PM

Hopefully most of that is not true.

Greenwood is not a winger.

We will waste Greenwood's talent playing him out there as his primary role.

The reality is though that the approach of 1 big signing then going cheap eleswhere would be what I expect of this United.

No interest in winning the league so will only look to do enough to qualify for the CL, will blame Covid while handing the glazers 10's of millions per year.

Drumpot · 22-02-2021 01:28PM

Headshot wrote: »

I feel sorry for Martial that he's confidence looks shot but he doesnt help himself with his work rate

Could be like lingard where he needs to go somewhere to get his confidence back or maybe he’s just not destined to flourish at United, sometimes players just don’t work out.. At what stage should a club cut its losses? How long should players get to find their Rythem?

Maybe martial really is a potentially great player but he’s a club starter, that’s a massive issue when he goes through really bad runs of form. If he was a squad player who we didn’t really rely on it wouldn’t be so bad but it’s almost like Ole is forced to try and play him back into form. For the levels United apparently are targeting he’s not been good enough.

His work rate or lack of would not be tolerated at clubs we are hoping to topple so it shouldn’t be good enough for us.

Whatsisname · 22-02-2021 01:29PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

I think the absolute ultimate requirement for a striker is being cynical. Aguero/Lewen/Cavani/Ibra/Kane give them a chance and most times they will bury it.

For me Martial doesn't have that. Agree with his pace,skills and decent in air but unless Bruno is going to be creating 5-6 amazing chances for him a game he won't be scoring. I would put him in the same category somewhat as Sterling in terms of being cynical.

From the minimal amount I saw of Greenwood he looks better in that regard.

Martial actually has (had?) a really good conversion rate.

https://twitter.com/utdarena/status/1265613444696457218?s=20

I'm struggling to find a more up to date statistic but thats from last May.

In 2019 he had the best conversion rate in the league.

Ever since the Sevilla game, his finishing has dropped massively off a cliff. He must have missed 2 or 3 sitters in that match alone. I'd have confidently said last year he was our best finisher by a distance. It's usually Rashford who needs 3/4 chances before scoring, whereas Martial usually would bury the one chance he gets. I think his issue is largely down to his lack of movement and predatory instinct. There was a point last night where Rashford played the ball to him at the edge of the box, he played it back and moved out to stand 3 feet away from Rashford on the wing. Which then left no crossing option into the box. Even as a former U12 fox in the box, I was screaming at him to get back in there.

Shanotheslayer · 22-02-2021 01:32PM

Whatsisname wrote: »

Martial actually has (had?) a really good conversion rate.

https://twitter.com/utdarena/status/1265613444696457218?s=20

I'm struggling to find a more up to date statistic but thats from last May.

In 2019 he had the best conversion rate in the league.

Ever since the Sevilla game, his finishing has dropped massively off a cliff. He must have missed 2 or 3 sitters in that match alone. I'd have confidently said last year he was our best finisher by a distance. It's usually Rashford who needs 3/4 chances before scoring, whereas Martial usually would bury the one chance he gets. I think his issue is largely down to his lack of movement and predatory instinct. There was a point last night where Rashford played the ball to him at the edge of the box, he played it back and moved out to stand 3 feet away from Rashford on the wing. Which then left no crossing option into the box. Even as a former U12 fox in the box, I was screaming at him to get back in there.

Really good data. I suppose there's some recency bias in my post. I definitely don't remember all of the seasons. I do recall him having a good season or two and he looked a great finisher. I just thought it was an anomaly.

billyhead · 22-02-2021 01:33PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Could be like lingard where he needs to go somewhere to get his confidence back or maybe he’s just not destined to flourish at United, sometimes players just don’t work out.. At what stage should a club cut its losses? How long should players get to find their Rythem?

Maybe martial really is a potentially great player but he’s a club starter, that’s a massive issue when he goes through really bad runs of form. If he was a squad player who we didn’t really rely on it wouldn’t be so bad but it’s almost like Ole is forced to try and play him back into form. For the levels United apparently are targeting he’s not been good enough.

His work rate or lack of would not be tolerated at clubs we are hoping to topple so it shouldn’t be good enough for us.

Look at Lukaku now thriving in Milan.

S.M.B. · 22-02-2021 01:33PM

Whatsisname wrote: »

Martial actually has (had?) a really good conversion rate.

https://twitter.com/utdarena/status/1265613444696457218?s=20

I'm struggling to find a more up to date statistic but thats from last May.

In 2019 he had the best conversion rate in the league.

I think his numbers are obviously down this season but not as dramatic a fall as some might think. The Athletic did a pretty in depth article on his recent stats and finishing technique not so long ago if I remember correctly.

Whatsisname · 22-02-2021 01:46PM

Its the MEN so take with a pinch of salt but..

https://twitter.com/utdreport/status/1363822555870748675?s=20

If it was up to me, I'd have Henderson in for the rest of the season. He'll make mistakes and he's looked shaky at times, but all his strengths are DDG's weaknesses. If he doesn't get a proper run in the team, we'll never know if he's good enough to replace DDG or not. But DDG is on 375k a week, so its hard to justify paying that for someone sitting on the bench.

Mitch Connor · 22-02-2021 01:53PM

I'd go with Henderson, but I also can't see the club doing that.

they won't be able to sell DDG, they could sell Henderson, so that is what will happen.

paulbok · 22-02-2021 01:55PM

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

Remember watching that game....they were rough as f##k but that Wimbledon team could play a bit as well.Can you imagine the reaction most modern day midfielders would have to that tackle by Jones on Keane?

They wouldn't stop rolling till the sideline!!

Twitter would be in meltdown as well

22-02-2021 02:08PM

Headshot wrote: »

I feel sorry for Martial that he's confidence looks shot but he doesnt help himself with his work rate

It's pure laziness really. Even yesterday there was a few times where he put in a half hearted effort to simply control the ball and it rolled over his foot. He's not someone who lacks confidence so it's purely to do with a lack of application.

The_Kew_Tour · 22-02-2021 02:10PM

Ole needs to drop him. If Pogba did that we want him out of the club.

I reckon he might be gone in summer anyway, but he has got give Greenwood the chance now.

S.M.B. · 22-02-2021 02:14PM

Whatsisname wrote: »

Its the MEN so take with a pinch of salt but..

https://twitter.com/utdreport/status/1363822555870748675?s=20

If it was up to me, I'd have Henderson in for the rest of the season. He'll make mistakes and he's looked shaky at times, but all his strengths are DDG's weaknesses. If he doesn't get a proper run in the team, we'll never know if he's good enough to replace DDG or not. But DDG is on 375k a week, so its hard to justify paying that for someone sitting on the bench.

It could all be gossip so I won't actually assume there's truth in this story but if there is any truth to it then I'd be curious to know if he was promised not to be "playing second fiddle" as he signed his lovely new 5 year contract which put him fairly high up the list of PL earners.

PARlance · 22-02-2021 02:14PM

You don't need an in-depth article to see that he doesn't get into the positions a good centre forward should be getting into. We could talk at length about his finishing or chances converted yada yada, he doesn't do what a CF should do and that's the height of it. The MOTD lads nailed it. They showed a "better" clip of him standing out on the left touchline with four other players beside him.

Ole pinned his colours to the mast when Lukaku went, he backed Rashford and Martial to the hilt and it has cost us. There have been times when Rashford could do nothing to be subbed, but in general, it's not a problem. Rashford might frustrate at times, but he delivers. Ole continues to accommodate and try to keep Martial happy, that is a problem.

I'm still mad about the teams he put out against Liverpool and Sheffield United, or to be more precise, the fact that he started Martial in these games. I think Ole / Martial cost us 5 points in those games. I also think we'd have beaten Arsenal if he hadn't accommodated Pogba in the front three, and then compounded that by bringing Martial on the left side at the expense of Rashford on the right.

There was no way we were winning the league but I do blame that run of games for letting City open up a huge gap and for not leaving us in a position that 2nd place was within sight and a top 4 almost secured at this stage.

I'm an Ole fan but he has his blind spots and they have been costly. I would like to be a Martial fan but he's the type of player that needs constant love from a manager, and United should be too big of a club for that carry on. I would gladly watch him being a star out in Italy or France.

PARlance · 22-02-2021 02:38PM

S.M.B. wrote: »

It could all be gossip so I won't actually assume there's truth in this story but if there is any truth to it then I'd be curious to know if he was promised not to be "playing second fiddle" as he signed his lovely new 5 year contract which put him fairly high up the list of PL earners.

I doubt he was promised anything except a fair crack at no.1. There's nothing he has done in his career to suggest he was just looking for a nice contract, I think that's fairly disingenuous. I think he had to fight for a 2nd year at SU and I'm sure he could have picked up a somewhat decent wage at Chelsea if those rumours were true.

Given DDG's form over recent years and this year, I can see how he feels he should be getting more chances. He mightn't be the answer but I find it refreshing to hear rumours of a United player not happy to sit back and take the payday.

My turn to be disingenuous maybe, but I don't think DDG would be banging any doors down to get regular football elsewhere if he ended up no.2 at United.

Lord TSC · 22-02-2021 03:29PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The reality is though that the approach of 1 big signing then going cheap eleswhere would be what I expect of this United.

No interest in winning the league so will only look to do enough to qualify for the CL, will blame Covid while handing the glazers 10's of millions per year.

I'm not going to disagree with the overall sentiment.

But I do think we spend way too much time in recent years focusing on the biggest, flashiest names possible.

When it says we will get "creative" elsewhere, I doubt the intention is to go for a €10m level striker. But given Haland and Kane are unrealistic options anyway, I think there's plenty of 40-50m level strikers who'd drastically improve the squad.

Bruno was a great example of a player who wasn't nessecarily this utter superstar of a signing, but who has elevated the team regardless. While it's nice to spend 100m on a striker, being "creative" with targets and going for the right fit for the squad, rather than the most expensive fit, would be a nice change of pace.

BKtje · 22-02-2021 03:40PM

KH25 wrote: »

At this point I think he should rotate with Rashford for the left side.

Funnily enough, that's what Mourinho did with them.

beakerjoe · 22-02-2021 03:41PM

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'm not going to disagree with the overall sentiment.

But I do think we spend way too much time in recent years focusing on the biggest, flashiest names possible.

When it says we will get "creative" elsewhere, I doubt the intention is to go for a €10m level striker. But given Haland and Kane are unrealistic options anyway, I think there's plenty of 40-50m level strikers who'd drastically improve the squad.

Bruno was a great example of a player who wasn't nessecarily this utter superstar of a signing, but who has elevated the team regardless. While it's nice to spend 100m on a striker, being "creative" with targets and going for the right fit for the squad, rather than the most expensive fit, would be a nice change of pace.

Sanchez..... Maguire..... Pogba..... all over priced.

Id be happy with us not spending 100 mil on a player like Sancho. While he may be more successful than those names above, he is not a guaranteed success. (No player is arguably).

Id like us to end this cycle of paying over the odds for players. Id rather buy cheaper players who have potential than expensive talents who dont match teh expectations of their OTT fees.

Mitch Connor · 22-02-2021 03:50PM

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'm not going to disagree with the overall sentiment.

But I do think we spend way too much time in recent years focusing on the biggest, flashiest names possible.

When it says we will get "creative" elsewhere, I doubt the intention is to go for a €10m level striker. But given Haland and Kane are unrealistic options anyway, I think there's plenty of 40-50m level strikers who'd drastically improve the squad.

Bruno was a great example of a player who wasn't nessecarily this utter superstar of a signing, but who has elevated the team regardless. While it's nice to spend 100m on a striker, being "creative" with targets and going for the right fit for the squad, rather than the most expensive fit, would be a nice change of pace.

I read 'creative' as somewhere between Ighalo and Cavani.

I don't see 'creative' as another word for 'competent'

Mitch Connor · 22-02-2021 03:51PM

BKtje wrote: »

Funnily enough, that's what Mourinho did with them.

And it was going really well until we brought in a new signing who had done really well on the right side in italy, really well on the right side in Spain, and exclusively played him on the left side.

KH25 · 22-02-2021 03:56PM

BKtje wrote: »

Funnily enough, that's what Mourinho did with them.

Jose also had actual strikers in the squad. We had Ibra and Lukaku to play there. Ole decided Lukaku was surplus to requirements and he wasn’t replaced. It was a really poor decision by the Board and Ole to proceed with not having an out and out striker in the squad and instead rely on 2 wide forwards and Greenwood coming out of the academy.

Cavani just cements that view for me. Look at the difference between him and Martial/Rashford. His movement etc is so different.

BKtje · 22-02-2021 04:05PM

I agree 100%. We clearly need a proper striker to rotate with and/or eventually replace Cavani. Greenwood is not yet that player for me.

DM_7 · 22-02-2021 04:41PM

KH25 wrote: »

Jose also had actual strikers in the squad. We had Ibra and Lukaku to play there. Ole decided Lukaku was surplus to requirements and he wasn’t replaced. It was a really poor decision by the Board and Ole to proceed with not having an out and out striker in the squad and instead rely on 2 wide forwards and Greenwood coming out of the academy.

Cavani just cements that view for me. Look at the difference between him and Martial/Rashford. His movement etc is so different.

Was it wrong or just risky/taking your medicine while taking some time to make a choice on where to buy?

Selling Lukaku, who wanted out, was also part of the pathway to Bruno signing.

United were moving out a player that wanted out for a good fee and getting the same player off the wage bill in a Europa League season. It would be a mistake to commit huge money for a player they did not really think wanted to be at United (Lukaku or a replacement that needed a lot of convincing).

Yes it hurt the team short term to be down a player for 5 months. It allowed a lot of space for a player like Rashford to step up, room for a Greenwood to play in Europa league and ultimately/belatedly make a choice that it was a Bruno that they needed to get into the team as the priority.

The Ighalo need showed they were aware the team was short at CF well before Cavani was brought in but as a CF option rather than the priority (Bruno).

y0ssar1an22 · 22-02-2021 04:49PM

PARlance wrote: »

You don't need an in-depth article to see that he doesn't get into the positions a good centre forward should be getting into. We could talk at length about his finishing or chances converted yada yada, he doesn't do what a CF should do and that's the height of it. The MOTD lads nailed it. They showed a "better" clip of him standing out on the left touchline with four other players beside him.

Ole pinned his colours to the mast when Lukaku went, he backed Rashford and Martial to the hilt and it has cost us. There have been times when Rashford could do nothing to be subbed, but in general, it's not a problem. Rashford might frustrate at times, but he delivers. Ole continues to accommodate and try to keep Martial happy, that is a problem.

I'm still mad about the teams he put out against Liverpool and Sheffield United, or to be more precise, the fact that he started Martial in these games. I think Ole / Martial cost us 5 points in those games. I also think we'd have beaten Arsenal if he hadn't accommodated Pogba in the front three, and then compounded that by bringing Martial on the left side at the expense of Rashford on the right.

There was no way we were winning the league but I do blame that run of games for letting City open up a huge gap and for not leaving us in a position that 2nd place was within sight and a top 4 almost secured at this stage.

I'm an Ole fan but he has his blind spots and they have been costly. I would like to be a Martial fan but he's the type of player that needs constant love from a manager, and United should be too big of a club for that carry on. I would gladly watch him being a star out in Italy or France.

here it is, what a cluster****.

Lord TSC · 22-02-2021 04:53PM

DM_7 wrote: »

Was it wrong or just risky/taking your medicine while taking some time to make a choice on where to buy?

Selling Lukaku, who wanted out, was also part of the pathway to Bruno signing.

United were moving out a player that wanted out for a good fee and getting the same player off the wage bill in a Europa League season. It would be a mistake to commit huge money for a player they did not really think wanted to be at United (Lukaku or a replacement that needed a lot of convincing).

Yes it hurt the team short term to be down a player for 5 months. It allowed a lot of space for a player like Rashford to step up, room for a Greenwood to play in Europa league and ultimately/belatedly make a choice that it was a Bruno that they needed to get into the team as the priority.

The Ighalo need showed they were aware the team was short at CF well before Cavani was brought in but as a CF option rather than the priority (Bruno).

Lukaku wanted out because he was bluntly told he'd be second fiddle to Rashford as the main striker. A decision that was nearly immediately rowed back upon weeks after Lukaku left.

Don't get me wrong, the manner in which he left was unprofessional at times. But the reason he wanted to leave was because the manager shoved him towards the door.

Had that situation been handled better, we would be in a stronger position right now. Yes, there's some corelation between Lukaku leaving and us needing to move for Bruno.

Had the situation been handled better, we could have had Lukaku, Rashford and Bruno all working together, rather than a situation now where our striker position has developed into yet another massive hole in the squad.

Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2020/21- Mod Notes #1

Comments