The way forward for LC2021

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 07:56PM

I’d rather not say what I teach for risk of identifying myself.

Not what I teach LC nowadays but in a previous school about 12 years ago I was asked to teach junior cert religion, what a pain. Never again I said! Anyways take a look at the marking scheme there and tell me how do you know what the marks are going for, it’s just an example of how the scheme doesn’t always tell you what they are looking for.

For CG I’ll use the data I have not sure are we meant to use the results of tests we gave them online? They definitely used the book when answering!

Wombatman · 18-02-2021 07:57PM

Rosita wrote: »

Yeah, but they still don't have to choose - they can opt for both. Whether they think the time spent preparing for an oral exam is just the same decision process as for any other exam. Have they reason to think they would exceed the likely predicted grade?

But they can choose away. It's not the students' problem if someone has to put out a hundred chairs in June and a hundred papers have to be printed for maybe ten students.

Yes they will have to choose and choose for every subject at that.

PGs without exam, orals, practicals or course work.

OR

PGs with exam, orals, practicals and course work.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 07:58PM

Wombatman wrote: »

It will be very strange for teachers who are asked for advice, from individual students, on what they should do re. opting in or out of exam, because at that point the teacher will have an idea of how they are going to grade them. Another reason to say to everyone, yes opt to do all exams and then you can drop, if you wish, at a later stage.

I'd probably ask the students a few questions themselves, like, are you planning on sitting all exams or just opting out of one or two? Are you considering HL or OL in this subject (if they are the borderline category. How would you feel if the predicted grade you were given was downgraded? If they are comfortable with the consequences after that and still want to opt out......

stainlesssteel · 18-02-2021 07:59PM

Rosita wrote: »

The stuff she's reading obviously says 2020/21 as in the academic year so that's where she gets it. But it's stupid, clunky and awkward.

Ah, that explains it - fair enough, I think I just misinterpreted it so

Rosita · 18-02-2021 08:00PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Yes they will have to choose and choose for every subject at that.

PGs without exam, orals, practicals or course work.
OR
PGs with exam, orals, practicals and course work.

You miss my point. They can choose both for the record and just show up for whatever suits them. So it's not really having to choose in a meaningful sense. It's just ticking a box with no repercussions. But I'm talking about it being logical to DO only a few selected subjects in which you could excel. Obviously unless you're sure take the 'both' option and keep options open in a subject if you want. But that's not really having to choose. Like I said, it's box ticking.

Wombatman · 18-02-2021 08:03PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd probably ask the students a few questions themselves, like, are you planning on sitting all exams or just opting out of one or two? Are you considering HL or OL in this subject (if they are the borderline category. How would you feel if the predicted grade you were given was downgraded? If they are comfortable with the consequences after that and still want to opt out......

Don't get the obsession is with downgrading. Exam marks can also be downgraded too by standardization. PGs and exam marks could in theory be upgraded also. It's a bit of a red herring TBF. Am I correcting in saying they will never know if their PG was upgraded or downgraded in any case?

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 08:03PM

noplacehere wrote: »

It has taken me years of practise with music but I finally feel I’ve got there with the exception of the melody question but I think most music teachers would agree on that. And facebook groups helped. I am very clear with students that it’s very much flair that gets you the H1 in melody writing, I use the exemplars from the chief examiners report to show them examples. And I hammer home exactly what they need to get a consistent H2 and then hopefully they get over the line on the day. It’s an interpretation based question and the examiners opinion on what is excellent comes into it. However conversely the harmony question is (mostly) much more specific and marks are obviously lost on particular criteria. Similarly the listening paper.

Ya, I've heard the music teacher in my school say the same, that melody is largely the difference between H1 and H2, and it's where the real musical talent shines, and it's not something that hard graft alone can help with.

Wombatman · 18-02-2021 08:06PM

Rosita wrote: »

You miss my point. They can choose both for the record and just show up for whatever suits them. So it's not really having to choose in a meaningful sense. It's just ticking a box with no repercussions. But I'm talking about it being logical to DO only a few selected subjects in which you could excel. Obviously unless you're sure take the 'both' option and keep options open in a subject if you want. But that's not really having to choose. Like I said, it's box ticking.

Far from it not having repercussions. Somebody who chooses PGs without exam, orals, practicals or course work, won't be able to change their minds at a later stage and do the exam, for whatever reason.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 08:08PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Back to the LC though, anyone got an instinct for how the SEC will be involved, very quiet on that front. I'd love to know how they feel about weighting different factors! You could see there being a lot of expertise across so many subjects there, would be of real value.

No idea, but I'd be more confident in having the SEC doing the moderation aspect of the predicted grades than it be farmed out to a random Canadian software company like last year. At least the expertise is present in the SEC of an understanding of how grades distribute across different subjects and different levels and what the ratio of students is typically doing HL v OL in a subject and where the outliers are (St Killians etc).

Rosita · 18-02-2021 08:08PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd guess that principals will want certain assessments to be able to give them a grade at the end of the year. Maybe complete CBAs, hard to know really.

I'd say that CBAs will actually take on an increased importance now to "keep them engaged".

Rosita · 18-02-2021 08:09PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Far from it not having repercussions. Somebody who chooses PGs without exam, orals, practicals or course work, won't be able to change their minds at a later stage and do the exam, for whatever reason.

You didn't read my post before you replied. You are contradicting something I didn't say.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 08:13PM

Teach30 wrote: »

I’d rather not say what I teach for risk of identifying myself.

Not what I teach LC nowadays but in a previous school about 12 years ago I was asked to teach junior cert religion, what a pain. Never again I said! Anyways take a look at the marking scheme there and tell me how do you know what the marks are going for, it’s just an example of how the scheme doesn’t always tell you what they are looking for.

For CG I’ll use the data I have not sure are we meant to use the results of tests we gave them online? They definitely used the book when answering!

Honestly, unless you are one of a handful of teachers teaching Ancient Greek or Russian or something that only a handful of schools offer, there isn't much chance of being identified.

Random sample · 18-02-2021 08:16PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Don't get the obsession is with downgrading. Exam marks can also be downgraded too by standardization. PGs and exam marks could in theory be upgraded also. It's a bit of a red herring TBF. Am I correcting in saying they will never know if their PG was upgraded or downgraded in any case?

If an exam is unfairly downgraded it will go back up on appeal. That process isn’t there for accredited grades.

am_zarathustra · 18-02-2021 08:16PM

I think the number opting to sit the exams on paper initislly might be based on lack of information, if we've no idea what will be taken into account then it's hard not to advise them to leave the possibility open, I'd definitely agree with you there

Random sample · 18-02-2021 08:17PM

Teach30, can I ask if you didn’t have predictive grades last year because there were no 6th years with your subject? Or was it that a different teacher had the 6th years?

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 08:21PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Don't get the obsession is with downgrading. Exam marks can also be downgraded too by standardization. PGs and exam marks could in theory be upgraded also. It's a bit of a red herring TBF. Am I correcting in saying they will never know if their PG was upgraded or downgraded in any case?

Well standardisation of marks in a written exam is different because students are only ever presented with a final mark. So the concept of their mark being upgraded or downgraded doesn't exist. Last year students knew if they were downgraded or upgraded on the predicted grade as they had access to school marks. So they could compare. And I'd presume some teachers told them if they were downgraded if they heard the results in august. Hence you get a St. Killian's style debacle.

I don't have a problem with downgrading as marks were way overinflated last year. It's the inexplicable ones which didn't make sense last year. If a downgrade was necessary then a whole group should shift 2, 3, 5, 10 percent down to achieve that, rather than just pick one student and shift their mark down so they end up lower than several people they were ranked above. That part made no sense.

One girl in my school got downgraded in four subjects, so that must have been hard for her to wonder at the 'randomness' of it and see none of her friends in those classes affected.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 08:22PM

Rosita wrote: »

I'd say that CBAs will actually take on an increased importance now to "keep them engaged".

I don't have third years this year.... silver linings.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 08:25PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I think the number opting to sit the exams on paper initislly might be based on lack of information, if we've no idea what will be taken into account then it's hard not to advise them to leave the possibility open, I'd definitely agree with you there

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/i-can-finally-breathe-students-on-plans-for-leaving-cert-2021-1.4488833

Bit of a mix of responses from LCs. Some will sit all exams, some will take all PGs, some will mix and match.

am_zarathustra · 18-02-2021 08:26PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't have third years this year.... silver linings.

I've nearly a full house of exam classes this year 😂

Rosita · 18-02-2021 08:26PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't have third years this year.... silver linings.

Silver linings? You'd better believe it!

Wombatman · 18-02-2021 08:29PM

Small sample size I know but....

85% of students intend sitting at least one exam.

Exam planning going to be a challenge.

https://studyclix.ie/Blog/Show/survey-results-what-6th-years-think-of-the-latest-lc-announcements

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 08:31PM

Random sample wrote: »

Teach30, can I ask if you didn’t have predictive grades last year because there were no 6th years with your subject? Or was it that a different teacher had the 6th years?

Different teacher who has retired. Lucky them! Why do you ask.

Str8outtaWuhan · 18-02-2021 08:48PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Small sample size I know but....

Exam planning going to be a challenge.

https://studyclix.ie/Blog/Show/survey-results-what-6th-years-think-of-the-latest-lc-announcements

A majority of students (71%) said they do not trust that the calculated grades system will accurately give them a result that reflects their ability.

Damning, plus 41 % will sit Irish, shows very little gra for the language

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 08:49PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Different teacher who has retired. Lucky them! Why do you ask.

Because there is someone else who you could talk to about marking schemes and calculated grades for this subject...

Random sample · 18-02-2021 08:49PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Different teacher who has retired. Lucky them! Why do you ask.

Was just wondering if you are one of those subjects with low uptake. The dynamic is very different in those classes and learning happens in a different way.

Random sample · 18-02-2021 08:50PM

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

A majority of students (71%) said they do not trust that the calculated grades system will accurately give them a result that reflects their ability.

Damning, plus 41 % will sit Irish, shows very little gra for the language

Or a 3 component exam isn’t the best use of your time when you have much easier options.

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 08:55PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Because there is someone else who you could talk to about marking schemes and calculated grades for this subject...

We didn’t talk then and they’re not the type of person I’d ring for a chat about CG. I’m not giving excuses but that’s how it was, I was seen as being too eager for them and they actively avoided me!

We didn’t even have meetings it was more or less you do that and I’ll do this. Job done. I’ve less resource and wellbeing etc now tho and miss that!

trihead · 18-02-2021 09:05PM

Students will have access to the portal from the early March to make their choice.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1362468261074530310

Rosita · 18-02-2021 09:10PM

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

A majority of students (71%) said they do not trust that the calculated grades system will accurately give them a result that reflects their ability.

Damning, plus 41 % will sit Irish, shows very little gra for the language

Not sure why a decision on Irish is measured in terms of grá when it'd hardly happen with any other subject.

I'm astonished it's that high. I can't see why many OL students would put themselves to the hassle of a potential oral exam in a few weeks rather than concentrating on their HL subjects. That, to my mind., leaves HL students and it's one of the more difficult subjects. Handy enough to pass but hitting, say, a H1 is a fairly rarified place.

skippy1977 · 18-02-2021 09:21PM

trihead wrote: »

Students will have access to the portal from the early March to make their choice.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1362468261074530310

Going to very interesting to see how things work in practice for the next 3 months. From a teacher's perspective I presume the mindset should be that there is an exam and I prep for that and try and ignore any other noise until May when I sit down to predict a grade? The students obviously have a big decision to make, on a subject by subject basis, but the teacher has to just get on with it, whether that be 20 in front of them, or 2. For planning it would be useful however to know what students are going to do...and soon. Like if I have to prep the whole class for the exam, that involves differentiated learning and moving at a slower pace, through topics we have yet to cover. If there are only 2 then I can plan specifically for them and what they are hoping to achieve.

I have Ordinary level Maths this year could see only a couple sitting the exam, most are happy to pass. In truth I'd actually be surprised if any of them sat it.
Will they be made take part in lessons in school in subjects they have no intention of sitting? Let's say 20 are sitting in front of you and 15 ask to study as they aren't sitting Maths? I guess I would be inclined to let them but am I right in saying that students need to still engage for the next while as performance in school until May will still be factored into a predicted grade?

Just thinking aloud here as it will be very interesting to see some guidance on these finer points, and it is very difficult for us to plan anything until we do.

The way forward for LC2021

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