Distance Regulation

Rikand · 04-02-2021 3:16pm

Change the courses for tournament setups. Narrower fairways, particularly at distances 300 yards+, deeper rough. Wider fairways at 280 yards. Make players have a choice. Hit it out of deep rough with a pitching wedge and low chance of control or hit it from further back in the fairway with a mid iron. If you're extremely accurate and long, then so be it, but if you're wayward, then you get punished..... hard!

bren2001 · 04-02-2021 3:20pm

Rikand wrote: »

Change the courses for tournament setups. Narrower fairways, particularly at distances 300 yards+, deeper rough. Wider fairways at 280 yards. Make players have a choice. Hit it out of deep rough with a pitching wedge and low chance of control or hit it from further back in the fairway with a mid iron. If you're extremely accurate and long, then so be it, but if you're wayward, then you get punished..... hard!

Bryson at Winged Foot kind of debunked this. If you offer a pro a wedge from the rough or iron from the fairway, I'd be surprised if they all didn't pick wedge.

I do not see the issue with bifurcation and think it makes sense.

death1234567 · 04-02-2021 3:26pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Where do you see the problem in amateur golf ?

Everywhere. Look how many courses have had to extend hole lengths over the years. Driving ranges with reduced speed balls or where balls fly OOB. That's money that could have gone into other things and bigger courses = more expensive course maintenance. Young kids are being taught on trackman now and they have the best of equipment. You think they'll lose much distance when they are in their 40's? Not a chance, they'll be bombing it 290+.

The issues with the club/ball distance improvements are obvious, it's seems mad that people want to try to ignore them or keep the status quo. If they made the ball XX% heavier so it went 10% less distance the game would be much better for it an nobody would care in 5 years time.

death1234567 · 04-02-2021 3:30pm

Rikand wrote: »

Change the courses for tournament setups. Narrower fairways, particularly at distances 300 yards+, deeper rough.

Doesn't work.

Bryson won a US open with Bomb and gouge. Also deep rough = lost balls or more "embedded" balls. If the fairway is wide at 280 then everyone will just be in the same spot with their second shot, whether it's 4 iron, 3 wood or driver off the tee it's all the same. By reducing everyone's distance by 10% the good drivers still have an advantage, it's pointless trying to "trick up" the course.

tyivpc5qjx0f2b · 04-02-2021 3:33pm

death1234567 wrote: »

Everywhere. Look how many courses have had to extend hole lengths over the years. Driving ranges with reduced speed balls or where balls fly OOB. That's money that could have gone into other things and bigger courses = more expensive course maintenance. Young kids are being taught on trackman now and they have the best of equipment. You think they'll lose much distance when they are in their 40's? Not a chance, they'll be bombing it 290+.

The issues with the club/ball distance improvements are obvious, it's seems mad that people want to try to ignore them or keep the status quo.

Another poster shared a statistic earlier that the average driving distance has actually decreased over the past 15 years.

Additionally you also mentioned-& I agree- that tech has largely plateaued in the past number of years so unless you feel we’re already at a point where amateurs are hitting the ball too far which doesn’t seem to be the case then the indicators seem to suggest it won’t become an issue.

The young lads using trackman now and hitting it 290+ into their 40s are very much in the minority. That is certainly not a pervasive issue.

GreeBo · 04-02-2021 6:07pm

Alivia Most Kite wrote: »

Another poster shared a statistic earlier that the average driving distance has actually decreased over the past 15 years.

But an average doesnt tell you anything here, whats the average age of golfers over the same 15 years?
What's more relevant is what has the average distance done for each handicap group?
Mildred and Old Joe getting shorter and shorter as they get into their 70s isnt really what we should be using to determine the future of the game.

All you have to do is look at the length of new courses compared to old, if you dialed everything back by 15% the long guys would still be long and the short guys would still be short, but you dont just keep growing the courses.

Other sports are having the same issue, we already see rugby players slotting kicks from well in their own halves, goalkeepers can kick the ball the length of the field.
Can you imagine the GAA allowing a sliothar or hurl that could score from one end of the park to the other? You'd have to start building new grounds all over the country, yet there hitting it far is still a skill in that game too.

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Where do you see the problem in amateur golf ?

I see it everywhere, every week amateur golfers are overpowering our old courses all over the world.

srfc d16 · 04-02-2021 6:10pm

Alivia Most Kite wrote: »

Another poster shared a statistic earlier that the average driving distance has actually decreased over the past 15 years.

Additionally you also mentioned-& I agree- that tech has largely plateaued in the past number of years so unless you feel we’re already at a point where amateurs are hitting the ball too far which doesn’t seem to be the case then the indicators seem to suggest it won’t become an issue.

The young lads using trackman now and hitting it 290+ into their 40s are very much in the minority. That is certainly not a pervasive issue.

I don't have the figures but from purely anecdotal evidence I would imagine that the average age of golfers has gone up over the past few years so it would make sense that overall distance would reduce.

dan_ep82 · 04-02-2021 6:20pm

death1234567 wrote: »

Everywhere. Look how many courses have had to extend hole lengths over the years. Driving ranges with reduced speed balls or where balls fly OOB. That's money that could have gone into other things and bigger courses = more expensive course maintenance. Young kids are being taught on trackman now and they have the best of equipment. You think they'll lose much distance when they are in their 40's? Not a chance, they'll be bombing it 290+.

The issues with the club/ball distance improvements are obvious, it's seems mad that people want to try to ignore them or keep the status quo. If they made the ball XX% heavier so it went 10% less distance the game would be much better for it an nobody would care in 5 years time.

What course that isn't used for a pro tournament was lengthend? I've yet to hear of an Augusta esque redesign because a majority of members are now bombing it past the trouble.

Not sure if reduced distance range balls cost more than normal ones? I doubt it would be much more to be honest and seems like a trivial point tbf.

I see it everywhere, every week amateur golfers are overpowering our old courses all over the world.

How do you see it all over the world? I'm not having a go but honestly it all seems like hearsay. Everytime I hear the argument its about pro's and how it makes a tournament boring or unfair. This thread is the first time I've seen someone say that amateurs hit it too far

GreeBo · 04-02-2021 6:28pm

from the Distance Insight report

GreeBo · 04-02-2021 6:35pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

What course that isn't used for a pro tournament was lengthend? I've yet to hear of an Augusta esque redesign because a majority of members are now bombing it past the trouble.

All the new courses that are built are far longer than the older courses, why else would this be if amateurs werent hitting it further than they used to?

Not sure if reduced distance range balls cost more than normal ones? I doubt it would be much more to be honest and seems like a trivial point tbf.

The point being that you dont need a 350 yard driving range in a members parkland course if your members can only drive it 250.

I cant hit a driver on our driving range in the summer as its not long enough at 270M.

How do you see it all over the world? I'm not having a go but honestly it all seems like hearsay. Everytime I hear the argument its about pro's and how it makes a tournament boring or unfair. This thread is the first time I've seen someone say that amateurs hit it too far

Well I see it in my own course and in every other members course I have played anywhere else in the world (Uk, Spain, etc)

Courses that were built before the 1970 (the vast majority of them) have either pushed their tees back if they can or just accepted that people are going to be bombing over/around the trouble or just hitting the green in 1.

Can you honestly say that you haven't played a members course in Ireland where as part of a redesign they havent either pushed the tee back or moved the bunkers etc forward? (they might have done it as part of a general redesign, but the fact remains they had to move things based on how far the ball is going, we have removed bunkers all together as they are out of play for most people and only penalising what today would be the short hitters)

tyivpc5qjx0f2b · 04-02-2021 6:58pm

srfc d16 wrote: »

I don't have the figures but from purely anecdotal evidence I would imagine that the average age of golfers has gone up over the past few years so it would make sense that overall distance would reduce.

Well I have no interest in getting bogged down in the weeds on distributions, the impact of aging golfers on average driving distance and so forth.

Beyond the anecdotal what I can say is that the 18-34 year old group has the highest contribution to participation and that the average age of golfers is 54-55 which has been relatively stagnant over the past 15 years.

Older golfers tend to play more rounds per year so I'm sure that impacts the numbers but I can't say how much.

Take from that what you will but it's probably fair to say that increased age is having a marginal impact on average distance.

It just seems to be pretty consistent, there is little I've seen to suggest that amateur golfers are hitting the ball too far and that is impacting golf in a negative way.

dan_ep82 · 04-02-2021 7:00pm

GreeBo wrote: »

All the new courses that are built are far longer than the older courses, why else would this be if amateurs werent hitting it further than they used to?

The point being that you dont need a 350 yard driving range in a members parkland course if your members can only drive it 250.

I cant hit a driver on our driving range in the summer as its not long enough at 270M.

Well I see it in my own course and in every other members course I have played anywhere else in the world (Uk, Spain, etc)

Courses that were built before the 1970 (the vast majority of them) have either pushed their tees back if they can or just accepted that people are going to be bombing over/around the trouble or just hitting the green in 1.

Can you honestly say that you haven't played a members course in Ireland where as part of a redesign they havent either pushed the tee back or moved the bunkers etc forward? (they might have done it as part of a general redesign, but the fact remains they had to move things based on how far the ball is going, we have removed bunkers all together as they are out of play for most people and only penalising what today would be the short hitters)

He said extended, not built to be fair to my answer.
I'd imagine most courses build bigger courses in the hopes of holding some pro/ mini pro events. How many of those course's run amateur competitions from the back tee's aside from scratch cups.

Your in the very top end of driving distance then and well outside the normal. I'm sure 99% of the membership can hit driver on it with no issues which brings back the why change for the 1%.

Very little built in the 70's would stand up to todays standard, those who were clever with their designs manage to keep the scores over par even for scratch golfers now.

I've played on some who have changed the course design but didn't hear an argument over peoples driving length factoring but honestly I haven't played as many courses as most on here. Would the 20 yards roll back make a difference to those holes?

bustercherry · 04-02-2021 7:28pm

GreeBo wrote: »

from the Distance Insight report

That can't be right. Most of my club's new cheats members brought in by covid are all bombing it past 250 with the 21+ handicaps

redzerdrog · 04-02-2021 7:32pm

GreeBo wrote: »

from the Distance Insight report

Does that not show that distance isn't an issue in the amateur game?

Pogue eile · 04-02-2021 10:46pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Guy who relies on hitting it far is against distance controls shocker!

I dont agree with his arguments, to say that distance is only a problem at the elite level is incorrect IMO.

Poster who continously berates McIllroy doesnt agree with McIllroy comments shocker

Russman · 04-02-2021 11:59pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

Does that not show that distance isn't an issue in the amateur game?

Ya, the big leap happened in 2000 with the Pro V1, it’s been relatively stable since then looking at that chart. I dunno, it’s a very difficult one tbh. It’s clearly an issue at the tour level, even in terms of finding suitable courses for the guys to play on. For the rest of us though ? I’m not so sure. I mean, I’m far from elite, but spent many years in the low single figures, and there’s a spot on my course that I sometimes hit balls from on a quite summer evening, and I know from where I hit to that I’m hitting it much the same distance as 15 years ago. I’m only in my 40s so I hope I’m not ready for the zimmer frame just yet.

I suspect with the talk of allowing local rules for driver shaft length, it will open the door to bifurcation under another name (maybe even on an event basis, remember when the hot drivers were allowed on one tour and not on another) and there will eventually be other local stipulations, a tour only spec ball, or reduced CoR, stuff like that.

I thought McIlroys points were well made, echoing almost exactly what Zach Johnson said the day before. Obviously they have a bias and skin in the game, but interesting that one of the longest and one of the shortest were of the same view.

redzerdrog · 05-02-2021 2:00am

Yeh there is do many layers to this and some very string views from all sides on what I think is quite a complex issue.

My own feelings are that golf as whole (99.9%) I don't think distance is an issue. The numbers abovè support this and I think any rollback would be detrimental. We all love the idea of a down wind par 5 that might be able to reach in 2 and have a chance of eagle. Waiting for the green to clear only to top the 2nd shot :-) The game is difficult enough for us hcap golfers without making it even harder so I would be strongly against any rollback here.

Bifurcation is another argument altogether and I am fully sure myself where I stand on it.

I think the potential rule on 46 inch driver limit is a very good one. Although it could be considered Bifurcation in a way I think as I have said already its more about future proofing the game. Hardly anybody currently uses 48 inch drivers and it is only in recent years the true value of distance can be calculated and the next generation are now doing everything to maximize this. Imo its a good move to get ahead of this.

Regarding further Bifurcation or rollback for pros only I am still on the fence. I dont this distance is as big an issue as what it is made out to be. Yes we gona see 400 yard drives in Hawaii because it's a big wide open slopey course, people need to understand this rather than getting knickers in a twist. Yes Bryson tore apart a US open track with bomb and gauge. But again people need to understand he could get away with this due to the course layout. There was very little trouble to the front of the green so he could gauge it out and let it run in to a number of holes. He couldn't get away with this at Augusta because of the layout.

But although I don't think distance is a problem at present it has the potential to be in years to come thus I would be interested to see what else can be done to future proof this. The idea of a tournament ball is an interesting one but still reluctant to say it's a good idea as even if they take 10% off it the longer guys still gona have the biggest advantage so not sure what it fully achieves apart from a few more courses become playable again for the tour.

That's a lot of flip flopping right there!!

GreeBo · 05-02-2021 8:10am

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Your in the very top end of driving distance then and well outside the normal. I'm sure 99% of the membership can hit driver on it with no issues which brings back the why change for the 1%.

Very little built in the 70's would stand up to todays standard, those who were clever with their designs manage to keep the scores over par even for scratch golfers now.

I've played on some who have changed the course design but didn't hear an argument over peoples driving length factoring but honestly I haven't played as many courses as most on here. Would the 20 yards roll back make a difference to those holes?

The point is that 20 years ago no one had issues hitting driver on that ground, now many players do.

By today's standard I presume you mean length... Doesn't that prove the point? Distances are out growing courses?

It's not all about making a difference to the players, what do you think the impact would be if the course staff had 20 yards less to maintain on every hole?

GreeBo · 05-02-2021 8:11am

redzerdrog wrote: »

Does that not show that distance isn't an issue in the amateur game?

Maybe my screen is upside down, but does it not show every handicap level is hiring it further than they used to?
This requires every hole to be longer to provide the same challenge at in the past, this is either expensive or Impossible.

GreeBo · 05-02-2021 8:13am

redzerdrog wrote: »

Yeh there is do many layers to this and some very string views from all sides on what I think is quite a complex issue.

My own feelings are that golf as whole (99.9%) I don't think distance is an issue. The numbers abovè support this and I think any rollback would be detrimental. We all love the idea of a down wind par 5 that might be able to reach in 2 and have a chance of eagle. Waiting for the green to clear only to top the 2nd shot :-) The game is difficult enough for us hcap golfers without making it even harder so I would be strongly against any rollback here.

But you can still have an that, you just move the tee up to the suitable distance?

Allowing the ball to go further and further isn't sustainable.

tyivpc5qjx0f2b · 05-02-2021 8:26am

redzerdrog wrote: »

Does that not show that distance isn't an issue in the amateur game?

The uptick appears pretty significant around 2000 when graphite shafts became widely used. That was a major innovation, since then it’s relatively stagnant.

Removing the 90s from the x-axis is the obvious way to view that chart

redzerdrog · 05-02-2021 8:59am

GreeBo wrote: »

Maybe my screen is upside down, but does it not show every handicap level is hiring it further than they used to?
This requires every hole to be longer to provide the same challenge at in the past, this is either expensive or Impossible.

As discussed the distances seem very consistent since the 90s, 10 yards difference on the average golfer is not making huge difference to the challenge of a hole. Why does a hole need to provide the same challenge as it used to? And who exactly is not providing that same challenge for?

redzerdrog · 05-02-2021 9:15am

GreeBo wrote: »

But you can still have an that, you just move the tee up to the suitable distance?

Allowing the ball to go further and further isn't sustainable.

How often are the back tees used? I think you will find most clubs already do this with the majority of golf played off forward tees. Iv played lots of golf all over the country and don't think I have ever been off the back tees apart from some comps in my home club.

Surely if this was such an issue the back tees would be in more regular use everywhere?

The_Kew_Tour · 05-02-2021 9:21am

Rory was right. Spend the millions on getting more people to play the game including minorities.

Golf is hard enough for us amateurs never mind taking 30 yards off us now

death1234567 · 05-02-2021 9:47am

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Golf is hard enough for us amateurs never mind taking 30 yards off us now

Any changes they make will mean most amateurs won't lose any yardage at all. The changes will affect lads with 110+ mph swing speeds which most amateurs don't have.

redzerdrog · 05-02-2021 9:51am

death1234567 wrote: »

Any changes they make will mean most amateurs won't lose any yardage at all. The changes will affect lads with 110+ mph swing speeds which most amateurs don't have.

And why should those that do swing 110+ be effected? For what purpose?

GreeBo · 05-02-2021 11:23am

redzerdrog wrote: »

As discussed the distances seem very consistent since the 90s, 10 yards difference on the average golfer is not making huge difference to the challenge of a hole.

Well its a club less on every shot for the average guy, I think that's pretty significant, especially when you consider the guys at the longer end.

I seriously dont think anyone can argue that the longer guys of today are hitting it far further than the longer guys of 20 years ago. This is as true for the am game as the pro game.

redzerdrog wrote: »

Why does a hole need to provide the same challenge as it used to?

Its how the course was designed to be played?

redzerdrog wrote: »

And who exactly is not providing that same challenge for?

If everyone is hitting it 10 yards further then its not providing the same challenge for anyone.

GreeBo · 05-02-2021 11:25am

redzerdrog wrote: »

How often are the back tees used? I think you will find most clubs already do this with the majority of golf played off forward tees. Iv played lots of golf all over the country and don't think I have ever been off the back tees apart from some comps in my home club.

Surely if this was such an issue the back tees would be in more regular use everywhere?

Most of the courses I play are off the back tees for comps, sure the newer "championship" courses rarely use the back tees, but the older courses, which I believe are the majority here and in the UK, arent in that position.

GreeBo · 05-02-2021 11:27am

redzerdrog wrote: »

And why should those that do swing 110+ be effected? For what purpose?

To maintain the integrity of the game and keep costs sensible.

Russman · 05-02-2021 11:33am

redzerdrog wrote: »

Yeh there is do many layers to this and some very string views from all sides on what I think is quite a complex issue.

My own feelings are that golf as whole (99.9%) I don't think distance is an issue. The numbers abovè support this and I think any rollback would be detrimental. We all love the idea of a down wind par 5 that might be able to reach in 2 and have a chance of eagle. Waiting for the green to clear only to top the 2nd shot :-) The game is difficult enough for us hcap golfers without making it even harder so I would be strongly against any rollback here.

Bifurcation is another argument altogether and I am fully sure myself where I stand on it.

I think the potential rule on 46 inch driver limit is a very good one. Although it could be considered Bifurcation in a way I think as I have said already its more about future proofing the game. Hardly anybody currently uses 48 inch drivers and it is only in recent years the true value of distance can be calculated and the next generation are now doing everything to maximize this. Imo its a good move to get ahead of this.

Regarding further Bifurcation or rollback for pros only I am still on the fence. I dont this distance is as big an issue as what it is made out to be. Yes we gona see 400 yard drives in Hawaii because it's a big wide open slopey course, people need to understand this rather than getting knickers in a twist. Yes Bryson tore apart a US open track with bomb and gauge. But again people need to understand he could get away with this due to the course layout. There was very little trouble to the front of the green so he could gauge it out and let it run in to a number of holes. He couldn't get away with this at Augusta because of the layout.

But although I don't think distance is a problem at present it has the potential to be in years to come thus I would be interested to see what else can be done to future proof this. The idea of a tournament ball is an interesting one but still reluctant to say it's a good idea as even if they take 10% off it the longer guys still gona have the biggest advantage so not sure what it fully achieves apart from a few more courses become playable again for the tour.

That's a lot of flip flopping right there!!

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure what I think either tbh. There's pros and cons either way, and a good argument can be made for each. I think I'm probably 55/45 on the side that something needs to be done with the ball, whether that be for all golfers or a tournament ball. I get that bifurcation is the last thing the ruling bodies want, but surely limiting shaft length with a local rule is the same thing just without calling it that ?

GreeBo wrote: »

Maybe my screen is upside down, but does it not show every handicap level is hiring it further than they used to?
This requires every hole to be longer to provide the same challenge at in the past, this is either expensive or Impossible.

But there's not much of a gain in the last 20 years, relative to the initial jump with the Pro V1. My own gut feeling is that for Joe Club Golfer, its not an issue. Most guys I see could use a Tour Balata, Topflite or a Pro V and it would make no difference to them, I think myself that its the bigger 460cc heads that allow them to hit it a bit further. There is a view that you have to swing 110mph+ to get the real benefit of the modern ball and not many club guys do that in reality. Obviously that's now, maybe for future proofing there needs to be something done.

WRT providing the same challenge as in the past, I totally get that and tbh a large part of me agrees with it, but at the same time, why should this be the case ? Where does "the past" sit ? 1970 ? 1980 ? 1990 ? I'm not having a go, or even necessarily disagreeing, just exploring it really.
Couldn't the same argument have been made when titanium drivers and graphite shafts came out ? They probably were in fairness. I dunno, who gets to decide where golf's limits sit ? Why do the likes of Nicklaus, Player etc get to effectively say that golf in their day is where the balance of skill and power should lie ?

I suppose tennis did reduce the speed of balls a few years ago, without much of a fuss, I've no idea if weekend players use different equipment there or not.

Distance Regulation

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