Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

ujjjjjjjjj · 04-02-2021 12:33PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Brexit is done? Then why is the PM trying to change the terms of the Brexit deal in relation to NI?

Why is Gove writing to the EU asking for extensions of interim measures out to 2023?

Brexit will never be done, it is unsustainable. Eventually it will be reversed in practice, with the UK back in the Single Market, even if it never gets reversed in name.

Maybe so, time will tell but for now I'd prefer to see us all trying to calm things down and not escalate problems. That's all.

The NI problem was never going to go away and the NI Protocol is a fudge which is going to be like the ghost of Christmas past. We have a border but we don't have a border and the border has to be somewhere but nobody wants it. Gove is writing a letter to make the problem go away for a bit..........personally I have no idea how this will play out as it's an impossible position. The border needs to be a border as it is a border but it's politically impossible to have a border. It's a daft situation.

All we can hope for I think is a laissez fare attitude to the entire thing with goods and products moving freely across both borders (the Irish Sea and North South) and in essence lots of trusted traders and self policing etc etc with some governmental oversight coming from Britain and the EU. This is going to take informal understandings and compromises from both sides. Unfortunately I don't think we are there now and I can only hope things settle down and move this way.

Brexit has been an acrimonious mess from day one but we all (and I mean we all) for all of our common good need to move on and make the best of it. Ireland I think can play a pivotal part here of the peacemaker, if we can stop sectarian murder in NI we can get through this and come out the other side.

Saren Arterius · 04-02-2021 12:40PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Brexit is done? Then why is the PM trying to change the terms of the Brexit deal in relation to NI?

Why is Gove writing to the EU asking for extensions of interim measures out to 2023?

Brexit will never be done, it is unsustainable. Eventually it will be reversed in practice, with the UK back in the Single Market, even if it never gets reversed in name.

You're just wishful thinking there.

Saren Arterius · 04-02-2021 12:43PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Personally I hope they invoke Art 16 and cause a right shít storm because at this stage, it's wearing thin.

We will of course do everything to help our citizens affected under their jurisdiction as we always do. But until then, it will be another goalpost moved and another hypocritical fauxtrage.
.
What I would also like to see in the coming months would be on Biden's first trip East to stop off in Dublin, Brussels, Paris and Berlin and then feck off back home. Properly show them their actual standing in the world.

His first foreign trip as President is to Cornwall.

Leroy42 · 04-02-2021 12:44PM

It has only been acrimonious from one side. Remember, the EU laid out the options as soon as the vote was cast. There has been very little that actually changed. The UK have spent 4+years fighting against the reality, making wild statement (EUSSR etc) lying trying to paint the EU as the bad guys.

They signed the WA, they threatened to break it when they actually read it. They signed the EU deal, and now are demanding the EU sort out their issues because they didn't understand what they were signing.

All the time they threatened to walk away with No Deal. Denied that No deal would have any real impact. Claimed they were only looking for Canada, but in reality they were looking for way more. Fundamentally, the problem with Brexit is that it can't deliver on what they want. They can't have NI remain in the UK and also have no border. The can't have full access to EU and not maintain standards.

They cannit sign trade deals with other countries and not have it impact on the trade deal with the EU.

The EU are relatively happy with the deal. They would have preferred the Uk to stay, they are costs and negatives with Brexit (Irish Fishermen lose out for example) but overall they got a pretty good deal.

The UK are both claiming they got a great deal and that the EU pulled a fast one. That this great deal, with its temporary teething problems, is so egregious as to warrant a demand letter from the UK government to sort out the UK internal problems

Quin_Dub · 04-02-2021 12:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The rule taker only applies to exports from the UK to the EU, if UK standards change, they will become the rule maker for imports from the EU and elsewhere.

Standardisation should be maintained as much as possible, nothing worse than returning to the old days of incompatible hardware, signalling etc.

Divergence is likely to be in areas like acceptable noise levels or power consumption, acceptable levels of contaminants etc

Being "able" to deviate on Standards doesn't mean it's a good idea though.

For all their posturing , the EU will remain a key market for UK produced goods.

Are manufacturers going to have two production runs - One that meets EU standards and one that meets whatever new Standards the UK decide on?

If the UK raises standards on some products , then that might be a little helpful , they can still export and the internal UK market has a slight leg-up on the EU for local businesses, albeit temporary.

And if they lower standards , they won't be able to compete in volume businesses from elsewhere.

The only people that would benefit from the UK altering standards will be the Chinese/Indonesian/Vietnamese producers , who will swamp the UK with all the tat that they can't sell in the EU.

Leroy42 · 04-02-2021 12:48PM

Saren Arterius wrote: »

You're just wishful thinking there.

Not really. Even within a month of the new reality, the UK government want to move closer to the EU again. Only a few weeks ago they were claiming that No Deal was actually a really good idea.

That's what 6 weeks! That quicker than even I anticipated.

Imagine what they will be like after 5 years of chaos and lack of export markets, and trouble with foreign holidays, and pet visas, and bands not being able to tour etc etc etc.

Remember, everything is at a lower level now because of Covid. So for example nobody is really seeing the effects on foreign holidays homes etc. That, and much much, has still to come into view.

fash · 04-02-2021 12:48PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

In reality the US is probably looking on in confusion wondering what the heck is going on in Ireland.
And again,in reality,having left the EU the UK has lost influence within that sphere which the US doesn't like but make no mistake,the UK is viewed as Americas greatest ally in Europe which you should accept instead of wasting so much energy hating the UK and all it stands for.

The US's greatest military ally is France, its economic ally is the EU - and the European country with which it most cultural and FDI ties is Ireland.
The UK is the creepy loser thinking it has a "special friendship" with a rockstar because he follows them online.

CelticRambler · 04-02-2021 12:48PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

The actions of Unionist activists has caught everyone out but the UK suggesting an extension period would take the anger out of the situation.I have no time for Johnson and co and gove is particularly obnoxious but I believe they are actually correct in suggesting this.

Two points: ifirst, anyone who was caught out by these recent actions of certain Unionists has obviously not been spending enough time on this forum - it was hightlighted as a real concern from as long back as when Tony Connelly inadvertently precipitated Arelene Foster's hissy fit over Theresa May's deal.

And secondly: an extension period? You mean like the one that Johnson, Gove et al refused to contemplate last year? Are you suggesting that your government is so inept that they can only now see the advantage of seeking an extension, when they were actively encouraged to seek one within the terms of the previously agreed transitional phase?

More to the point, do you think it is right to legitimise the threat of violence and other criminal actions by pandering to the trouble-makers? Would it not be more constructive of the British government to pull their finger out and actually put in place all the systems that the agreed to? And maybe tell the headcases in NI that if they want to be considered British, then they'd better jolly well do as their British masters tell them - sit down and shut up.

MrMusician18 · 04-02-2021 12:48PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

In reality the US is probably looking on in confusion wondering what the heck is going on in Ireland.
And again,in reality,having left the EU the UK has lost influence within that sphere which the US doesn't like but make no mistake,the UK is viewed as Americas greatest ally in Europe which you should accept instead of wasting so much energy hating the UK and all it stands for.

The Obama administration viewed the relationship with Germany as exceeding it's importance with the UK. The special relationship is a very one sided relationship.

The UK is still an important ally though, a nuclear power and security council member so its role in international relations cannot be dismissed.

Lastly, what do you think the UK government stands for? What is Johnson's guiding philosophy? Because I'm struggling to see one side from his own self aggrandisement.

Saren Arterius · 04-02-2021 12:48PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The whole "EU" wants to become a superstate is quite a strawman, i remember the same points being made here on this forum over a decade ago during Lisbon(s). I am still waiting to be conscripted into an EU army :O

Of course, the EU is creating an army, despite the fact that Old Cleggy had a go at Mr Farage during the referendum campaign for saying there will be an EU army. Farage and the Brexiteers were proven right again.

If anything after {Financial, Crimea, Euro, Migration, Trump, Brexit and Covid} crises of last decade I wish EU becomes more federal as its glaringly obvious now that there is need for cooperation on all sorts of threats to stability of Europe. With Ireland having a say at the table as external issues keep impacting us regardless of domestic politics.

The crisis in Crimea was started by the EU's courting of Ukraine. The EU started that war.

Hurrache · 04-02-2021 12:53PM

Saren Arterius wrote: »

Of course, the EU is creating an army, despite the fact that Old Cleggy had a go at Mr Farage during the referendum campaign for saying there will be an EU army. Farage and the Brexiteers were proven right again.

The crisis in Crimea was started by the EU's courting of Ukraine. The EU started that war.

Depths of desperation when you use Farage to try make a serious point.

MrMusician18 · 04-02-2021 12:54PM

Saren Arterius wrote: »

Of course, the EU is creating an army, despite the fact that Old Cleggy had a go at Mr Farage during the referendum campaign for saying there will be an EU army. Farage and the Brexiteers were proven right again.

The crisis in Crimea was started by the EU's courting of Ukraine. The EU started that war.

I hope the new digs on Orwell road are comfortable.

Hurrache · 04-02-2021 12:54PM

Anyway, normal services resume in the north, it's always going to he a political dump when you have stuff like this still being written
https://twitter.com/BelTel/status/1357265474694881280

Sam Russell · 04-02-2021 12:55PM

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Look simple facile example - should the EU have any concerns about any exports from British Farmers now - absolutely not, food standards as good as Europe so just get on with trade as normal. Does the EU need to keep an eye on things, yeah sure. If for example tomorrow Boris has a brainfart and says Chlorinated Chicken is a go and they start producing chlorinated chicken - sure go 'sorry lads your chicken is a no go'.............but I just can't see it being a problem. The Brits may have their issues but I can't see the British public accepting huge reductions in standards.

There are two 'exports' from British farmers we would rather not have happened - foot and mouth and BSE. Both originated on British farms and were the result of feeding regimes designed to cut costs.

Foot and mouth came from feeding animals with food waste (swill) which was not sterilised. Food from outside the EU that was contaminated was fed, unsterilized, to pigs which led to the outbreak. The method of moving animals from the North of England to the South West of England as part of grazing scheme allowed a huge spread of the disease which prevented its containment. All due to bad husbandry.

BSE was caused by feeding ruminant animals with animal protein including brain material from sheep infected with scrapie . Again, very bad practice, and it resulted in huge losses to our farmers, not just stock losses but losses of hard won markets.

Both these disasters were happening while part of the EU, so what will happen now they are not under the EU animal health regime?

Saren Arterius · 04-02-2021 12:55PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Unelected hereditary head of state

The monarch isn't a politician.

No constitution

The UK does have a constitution, but it consists of many many documents, some old and some modern, such as Magna Carta and the 1689 Bill of Rights.

Need I go on? Brits lecturing us on them being a democracy is hilarious

The UK is recognised the world over as being a democracy.

fash · 04-02-2021 12:55PM

Saren Arterius wrote: »

The crisis in Crimea was started by the EU's courting of Ukraine. The EU started that war.

Yeah - the Ukraine shouldn't be allowed to control its own destiny - it must do (and should have done) what Russia tells it.

Leroy42 · 04-02-2021 12:56PM

Saren Arterius wrote: »

The crisis in Crimea was started by the EU's courting of Ukraine. The EU started that war.

You think that talking to a country is responsible for another country to attack it?

Well then, then the UK is in quite a pickle so. There whole global strategy is to talk to countries all over the world. I assume that you see this as the UK attempting to start a new world war

Hurrache · 04-02-2021 12:58PM

Saren Arterius wrote: »

The UK does have a constitution, but it consists of many many documents, some old and some modern, such as Magna Carta and the 1689 Bill of Rights.

You're death right, the Magna Carta is of such significance to the UK constitution it was used as a way out of lock down restrictions, much to the hilarity of people with a brain.

Zubeneschamali · 04-02-2021 12:58PM

Saren Arterius wrote: »

You're just wishful thinking there.

No, I am serious. The deal has been in force for a month and there has been a massive drop in trade. This is not teething troubles, it is permanent and will get worse as UK firms go out of business.

You can't just slash 10% off the economy and carry on regardless. Pressure will build up to restore trade, and the only way is to move closer to the EU. It is inevitable.

Professor Moriarty · 04-02-2021 01:01PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

You think that talking to a country is responsible for another country to attack it?

Well then, then the UK is in quite a pickle so. There whole global strategy is to talk to countries all over the world. I assume that you see this as the UK attempting to start a new world war

I wouldn't bother. Nothing but disingenuity dressed up as fact. Biden visiting Cornwall. EU starting war in Ukraine. Et cetera.

Saren Arterius · 04-02-2021 01:01PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

You think that talking to a country is responsible for another country to attack it?

Well then, then the UK is in quite a pickle so. There whole global strategy is to talk to countries all over the world. I assume that you see this as the UK attempting to start a new world war

I think you Remainers need to wake up and see reality.

The war in Ukraine was started by the EU courting it which then led to it's pro-Moscow leader being overthrown. Don't blame it on Russia. The EU started it.

listermint · 04-02-2021 01:02PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, I am serious. The deal has been in force for a month and there has been a massive drop in trade. This is not teething troubles, it is permanent and will get worse as UK firms go out of business.

You can't just slash 10% off the economy and carry on regardless. Pressure will build up to restore trade, and the only way is to move closer to the EU. It is inevitable.

10%. ...

Let's multiply that a few times .

Professor Moriarty · 04-02-2021 01:04PM

listermint wrote: »

Who's a remainer. This is an Irish forum...

You might have tripped on your way to parler I'm unsure.

They were using 'Remoaner' earlier. Speaks volumes.

RobMc59 · 04-02-2021 01:04PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

Two points: ifirst, anyone who was caught out by these recent actions of certain Unionists has obviously not been spending enough time on this forum - it was hightlighted as a real concern from as long back as when Tony Connelly inadvertently precipitated Arelene Foster's hissy fit over Theresa May's deal.

And secondly: an extension period? You mean like the one that Johnson, Gove et al refused to contemplate last year? Are you suggesting that your government is so inept that they can only now see the advantage of seeking an extension, when they were actively encouraged to seek one within the terms of the previously agreed transitional phase?

More to the point, do you think it is right to legitimise the threat of violence and other criminal actions by pandering to the trouble-makers? Would it not be more constructive of the British government to pull their finger out and actually put in place all the systems that the agreed to? And maybe tell the headcases in NI that if they want to be considered British, then they'd better jolly well do as their British masters tell them - sit down and shut up.

Of course I don't condone the threats and inflammatory graffiti. I also believe both the UK and EU need to get their heads together and not continue pointing the finger at each other.

04-02-2021 01:06PM

tubercolossus wrote: »

Neville Chamberlain would be proud of this appeasement.

Look where it got him.

20 years after (one of) the bloodiest war in history, the anything to prevent another war was very high in everyone's mind.

This is very different as it is about trade, not about transfer of territory.

04-02-2021 01:09PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

For the benefit of dolanbaker, ujjjjjjjjj and anyone else with a fondness for perpetuating urban myths, be aware that there is not now, nor has there ever been, a "Chinese Export" symbol composed of the letters C and E. If ujjjjjjjjj did a little bit more than quick googling, he/she would find that the matter was raised and dealt with by the European union back in 2008 (my highlighting and emphasis):

Dragging this back to Brexit: market surveillance requires physical checks of physical products. Can anyone name a European country that doesn't have enough customs agents to check their imports? That, having left the EU, has postponed full checks on their own borders until some time later this year? That, in the face of a bit of vandalism, has suspended physical checks on products arriving in certain ports?

Please refer to the EU page with reference to the CE mark.
https://support.ce-check.eu/hc/en-us/articles/360008642600-How-To-Distinguish-A-Real-CE-Mark-From-A-Fake-Chinese-Export-Mark

timetogo1 · 04-02-2021 01:14PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why?

Seems to me they filed Gove's letter in the filing cabinet and carried on.

The EU has been in trouble for the last 5 years

File that in the same bin as
German carmakers won't allow this.
The UK is the first country to Brexit, others will follow.
The EU always blinks at the last minute.
WTO all the way.
No deal is better than a bad deal.
If anybody asks you to fill in a form tell them to call me.
Cutting out EU red tape.

Any day now, the Brexiters will get one right and then we'll hear about it foreeeeever.

CelticRambler · 04-02-2021 01:14PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Of course I don't condone the threats and inflammatory graffiti. I also believe both the UK and EU need to get their heads together and not continue pointing the finger at each other.

Get their heads together???

To do what? The EU spend four years trying to engage the UK government in sensible discussion, only for the UK to rant and rave and spin like a top and do feck all until they ran out of time. Now we have Gove writing a letter in which he says

the United Kingdom will set out solutions to enable goods to move tariff-free in line with product-specific quotas

Oh really? The UK will set out solutions, will it? Well maybe you should have set those out last year, or the year before, or the year before that? But while we're waiting, how about putting in place the solutions that are already agreed, like the export-import IT systems to which the UK has the keys and won't share the info with the EU?

What is the point of anyone in the EU sitting down with the UK when the UK seems incapable of acting in good faith?

schmoo2k · 04-02-2021 01:15PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why?

Seems to me they filed Gove's letter in the filing cabinet and carried on.

I thought we scheduled a face to face for next week? Nicely dismissing Gove's "this week" ultimatum...

Lemming · 04-02-2021 01:18PM

looksee wrote: »

Finally, after 5 years I finally found and read the official UK government Brexit referendum leaflet,

[snip]

Which all goes to suggest that there was a very powerful Brexit lobby who managed, in the face of the above government official information, to be more persuasive than the remain lobby. So what was the government at, with the above leaflet? I didn't hear much day to day pushing of the angle published. Was it actually delivered?

Yes there was a leaflet or two delivered. They were not glossy and were quite matter-of-fact and dry as opposed to the diatribe toilet paper printed by UKIP that was dumped through my letter box, or the pravda crap masquerading as "magazines" printed by Weatherspoons. There was a well funded leave lobby that played very fast & loose with regards spending limits by having the likes of weathersh1ts have a go "independently".

tubercolossus wrote: »

This would be the 'superstate' that Tony Benn was warning about back in 2008, would it?

Brexit had literally nothing to do with any notional 'superstate'. It's been entirely an internal Conservative party issue for decades.

I recall a particularly apt summation of Brexit being that it was an internal Tory catfight that got out of hand. Cameron was facing dissent & defection to UKIP within the back benches. It was his inability to control his own party that started this whole sh1t show.

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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