Is the 201 class doomed for imminent withdrawn?

TheBoyConor · 02-02-2021 1:28am #1

As we will know, 224 suffered a cataclysmic failure of her chassis in July.. It is only through sheer luck that the fault was copped and broken chassis didn't result in the locomotive disintegrating on the rails at high speed.

There are 3 main theories doing the rounds

1. There may, at some point been an unreported collision or other incident at some point in the locos history that damaged the frame, and it's only manifested itself now.

2. It was a random failure due to some manufacturing fault on that particular loco, or perhaps corrosion.

3. It could be a design flaw inherent to all the 201 class.

224s day is obviously nover. She's going to be stripped and chopped up. Her useful parts will be harvested, potentially being used to rehabilitate 230 or keep other aiming locos on service.

However, if no. 3 is the cause, then it's likely all the class are at risk of the same failure and would need a significant structural fix, reinforcement or rebuild in order for IE to stand over their safety. It could make the class a write off and uneconomical to investigate and retrofit a fix to the design or build flaw. Especially since there isn't enough work these days to keep all the surviving members of the class busy, and with freight dead in the water and the slow but steady phase out of locomotive hauled services over the last 15 years, this could spell the end of the entire class and they may be condemned and written off and taken out of service.
It is a shame to see z-ro ative Lee newish locomotives taken out of service laid up and potentially scrapped at the cutters torch when they are 25 years old.

Its sad to think that they could be facing a premature visit to Hammond Lane.

It would be the end of an era, with no more locomotive hauled services any more.

Lewis_Benson · 02-02-2021 1:38pm

Bring back the 121s!!

TheBoyConor · 02-02-2021 1:40pm

Would ITG or DPCDR or RPSI have the facilities or resources to even run a 201? If they get barred from mainline use, there's ins't much left for them except one or 2 as a fairly uninteresting static exhibit.

I wonder could the 071s be re-engined with the engine and generator sets from the 201s after they get chopped?

goingnowhere · 02-02-2021 1:57pm

224 was an exception. RAIU report will reveal all. Clearly there isn't a widespread issue as the 201 fleet remains in service.

As an express passenger locomotive the 201 class is a very primitive piece of equipment by todays standards. Replacement with a modern equivalent of similar power output is desirable, say a UK class 68. Faster to accelerate and can actually provide power to the train without going up in a ball of flames as the 201's keep doing

Jamie2k9 · 02-02-2021 5:09pm

201s will probally be gone by 2035. Whatever DDs get replaced by will be expanded to include IVs and be in the form of a Bi-mode/DMU with around 160-200 coaches in my opinion.

Disposal of IVs will be premature but not a chance they will stay in service longer than needed and electrification of Cork should be under construction/planning by 2030.

Can't see any more than 10 201/071s available for service once loco hauled stock goes.

andrewfaulk · 02-02-2021 6:55pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

As we will know, 224 suffered a cataclysmic failure of her chassis in July.. It is only through sheer luck that the fault was copped and broken chassis didn't result in the locomotive disintegrating on the rails at high speed.

There are 3 main theories doing the rounds

1. There may, at some point been an unreported collision or other incident at some point in the locos history that damaged the frame, and it's only manifested itself now.

2. It was a random failure due to some manufacturing fault on that particular loco, or perhaps corrosion.

3. It could be a design flaw inherent to all the 201 class.

224s day is obviously nover. She's going to be stripped and chopped up. Her useful parts will be harvested, potentially being used to rehabilitate 230 or keep other aiming locos on service.

However, if no. 3 is the cause, then it's likely all the class are at risk of the same failure and would need a significant structural fix, reinforcement or rebuild in order for IE to stand over their safety. It could make the class a write off and uneconomical to investigate and retrofit a fix to the design or build flaw. Especially since there isn't enough work these days to keep all the surviving members of the class busy, and with freight dead in the water and the slow but steady phase out of locomotive hauled services over the last 15 years, this could spell the end of the entire class and they may be condemned and written off and taken out of service.
It is a shame to see z-ro ative Lee newish locomotives taken out of service laid up and potentially scrapped at the cutters torch when they are 25 years old.

Its sad to think that they could be facing a premature visit to Hammond Lane.

It would be the end of an era, with no more locomotive hauled services any more.

Freight is dead? No one told me..

Fairly sure it’s the only part of IEs business not to drop by 70% in 2020

TheBoyConor · 02-02-2021 7:11pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Freight is dead? No one told me..

Fairly sure it’s the only part of IEs business not to drop by 70% in 2020

Ie have no interest in freight. If they could wind up that entire side of the business in the morning they would happily do so. They are being made to do it by the government.

Sure they don't even want to run most passenger services either, they'd be happy to wind those up to. They only want to run Dublin to Cork and Dublin commuter routes. Everything else they are being forced to run.

andrewfaulk · 02-02-2021 8:49pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Ie have no interest in freight. If they could wind up that entire side of the business in the morning they would happily do so. They are being made to do it by the government.

Sure they don't even want to run most passenger services either, they'd be happy to wind those up to. They only want to run Dublin to Cork and Dublin commuter routes. Everything else they are being forced to run.

Any source for that? Or even better first hand experience?

TheBoyConor · 02-02-2021 9:14pm

Look at the network. There is your source. Or what is left of it to be exact.

Look at all the former freight yards and gantries built through the 70s through to the 90s which were barely used at all, and then mothballed and turned into car parks or sold off to developers.

Isambard · 02-02-2021 9:23pm

I'd say it's scaremongering to suggest a fault with one loco might be common to the rest of the fleet when locos of the same general design operate in many countries.

The 201s are fairly elderly now and a design fault would surely have materialised by now

They won't last much longer though, old technology and fairly poor MkIV coaches will see to that.

andrewfaulk · 02-02-2021 9:29pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Look at the network. There is your source. Or what is left of it to be exact.

Look at all the former freight yards and gantries built through the 70s through to the 90s which were barely used at all, and then mothballed and turned into car parks or sold off to developers.

So no then..

TheBoyConor · 02-02-2021 9:31pm

They are only 27 years old. That is not old for a locomotive of this size. By right they should have many more years left in them if they are maintained properly.
having said that

The 071s were introduced in 1976 and all are still in service and going strong. They are 45 years old.

Itssoeasy · 02-02-2021 9:35pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

As we will know, 224 suffered a cataclysmic failure of her chassis in July.. It is only through sheer luck that the fault was copped and broken chassis didn't result in the locomotive disintegrating on the rails at high speed.

There are 3 main theories doing the rounds

1. There may, at some point been an unreported collision or other incident at some point in the locos history that damaged the frame, and it's only manifested itself now.

2. It was a random failure due to some manufacturing fault on that particular loco, or perhaps corrosion.

3. It could be a design flaw inherent to all the 201 class.

224s day is obviously nover. She's going to be stripped and chopped up. Her useful parts will be harvested, potentially being used to rehabilitate 230 or keep other aiming locos on service.

However, if no. 3 is the cause, then it's likely all the class are at risk of the same failure and would need a significant structural fix, reinforcement or rebuild in order for IE to stand over their safety. It could make the class a write off and uneconomical to investigate and retrofit a fix to the design or build flaw. Especially since there isn't enough work these days to keep all the surviving members of the class busy, and with freight dead in the water and the slow but steady phase out of locomotive hauled services over the last 15 years, this could spell the end of the entire class and they may be condemned and written off and taken out of service.
It is a shame to see z-ro ative Lee newish locomotives taken out of service laid up and potentially scrapped at the cutters torch when they are 25 years old.

Its sad to think that they could be facing a premature visit to Hammond Lane.

It would be the end of an era, with no more locomotive hauled services any more.

Okay.

The thread title is in the form of a question yet you make several points which read as facts. One loco doesn’t automatically mean an entire class of locomotives have the same fault. 224 was a shock to see but from looking at the RAIU website there is no report been issued or anything to indicate the issue in 224 has been concluded one way or the other.

Also, I know we give out about IR and things they’ve done and may well do, but I think they’re competent enough to not let a class of locos on the mainline if there was a widespread issue.

Itssoeasy · 02-02-2021 9:38pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Look at the network. There is your source. Or what is left of it to be exact.

Look at all the former freight yards and gantries built through the 70s through to the 90s which were barely used at all, and then mothballed and turned into car parks or sold off to developers.

So are the wanderers photos that he posts here showing locos hauling freight a mirage then ? It’s fair to say Freight isn’t what it was but it’s not dead.

kc56 · 02-02-2021 10:18pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So are the wanderers photos that he posts here showing locos hauling freight a mirage then ? It’s fair to say Freight isn’t what it was but it’s not dead.

Not only freight but locos will always be needed for permanent way trains and rescuing failed DMU/EMUs.

TheBoyConor · 03-02-2021 12:08am

I think after the eventual demise of the 201s and the 071s IE will probably go the way of the MPVs for freight and exclusive use of road-rail vehicles for PW works. Perhaps a few small works locos for PW dept. Unfortunately the day of proper locomotives is coming to a sad end.

When I talk of what freight could be, it has me thinking back to the days of the 001s and 201Cs on the fertilizer and ammonia, a pair of baby GMs double heading bogie cement wagons, 121s on Bell liners and cement bubbles, 071s on the and 101s on the timber and beet trains. With anything on the 4 wheel ballast hoppers, spoils, gypsum and barytes wagons and the Tara Mines.
What we are left with is only a tiny fraction of what we had before.

DoctorPan · 03-02-2021 1:14pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Ie have no interest in freight. If they could wind up that entire side of the business in the morning they would happily do so. They are being made to do it by the government.

Sure they don't even want to run most passenger services either, they'd be happy to wind those up to. They only want to run Dublin to Cork and Dublin commuter routes. Everything else they are being forced to run.

Extremely different to the words being put out by Jim Meade in various enviroments including IRRS talks and Engineer Ireland events.

TheBoyConor · 03-02-2021 2:40pm

I wouldn't put much faith in what he says. He's IEs chief mouthpiece so he's hardly going to say anything that isn't consistent with the usual Iarnrod Eireann propaganda outbursts.

Meanwhile good stock and lines are left to rot and get vandalized and chopped up, while they put their Dublin centric blinkers on and carry on with the ICR fueled drabification of the remains of network which they have been intentionally sabotaging and running down for the last 60 years.

GT89 · 03-02-2021 2:44pm

Would they not get rid of the 071s first then relegate the 201s solely to freight and engineering trains.

goingnowhere · 03-02-2021 3:10pm

The freight issue is complex but

1. The largest customer, Bell Lines went bankrupt, the entire system was based on block trains for Bell which provided an option to tack on other customers with ease on the the almost nationwide daily service

2. Major customers no longer exist. IFI are gone, Quigley Magnasite gone, Asahi gone

3. EU regulations required transparency in accounting, you couldn't use PSO money to cover freight costs

4. There is no state support for freight on rail

5. Dramatic improvement in road infrastructure since 1990's

6. EU shut down sugar beet

The 201 is a capable freight locomotive, and was bought with this in mind. But due to 100mph gearing isn't comparable to the class 66 and train length restrictions due loop lengths mean an 071 is sufficient for almost all business

Del.Monte · 03-02-2021 3:16pm

Fado, fado when SNCF were adding new private sidings weekly CIE were chopping them out as fast as they could. The shortlived siding into the Co-op at Farranfore on the Tralee line was what should have been going on countrywide but..

That said, it's government policy to favour road building and private hauliers and CIE are a creature of the State since 1950 and there it ends. So much for EU policy in favour of railways.

TheBoyConor · 03-02-2021 4:17pm

I think the 071s are going to outlive the 201s.

The 071s are all still in service and have been refurbished several times.
They have plenty power for most duties that will be asked of them.
They are more reliable than the 201s
They are lighter than the 201s and inflict much less wear and tear on the PW

Meanwhile the 201s pound the shít out of the PW, have a habit of bursting into flames and other failures, and 201-214 are already withdrawn due to lack of push pull capability and will never run again and are being harvested for parts. It won't be long before some of them are fully harvested and will be chopped up.

Isambard · 03-02-2021 4:30pm

GT89 wrote: »

Would they not get rid of the 071s first then relegate the 201s solely to freight and engineering trains.

they are both old locos . It would make more sense to refurbish/re-engineer and retain 071s as they are a go anywhere reliable class.

andrewfaulk · 03-02-2021 5:35pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I wouldn't put much faith in what he says. He's IEs chief mouthpiece so he's hardly going to say anything that isn't consistent with the usual Iarnrod Eireann propaganda outbursts.

Meanwhile good stock and lines are left to rot and get vandalized and chopped up, while they put their Dublin centric blinkers on and carry on with the ICR fueled drabification of the remains of network which they have been intentionally sabotaging and running down for the last 60 years.

And you would do a better job? I don't think you understand how politics works in this country.. Being Irish Rail's CEO is a constant battle between keeping services operating and getting enough money from the government to actually do that.. The focus on commuter rail is because that is where rail is actually viable, and actually makes money..

Not sure what the ICR hate is about either, without the ICRs there would probably be even less of the network still operating or viable.. They are a huge step forward for everyone(fare paying customers, CME dept and the accountants in Heuston) compared to clapped out 70s or 80s coaches hauled by increasing worn out locos needing run around at each end

As expected, this thread has literally just turned into the OP spewing junk read off Facebook page with very little basis for any of it

TheBoyConor · 03-02-2021 5:50pm

I just think that we had a fairly comprehensive network in the not too distant past, with plenty interesting passenger services and freight flows, and loads of stock, and over the last 30-40 years it's be decimated. All that's left of any interest is the 071s.
The IVs and ICRs are grand and do a reasonable job, but they are not near as comfortable as what went before. And they have no character. Certainly not the ICRs anyway , whatever about the IVs.

L1011 · 03-02-2021 5:56pm

Character doesn't keep a railway viable.

Del.Monte · 03-02-2021 5:56pm

I started out being happy with the introduction of the ICRs but having used them frequently over the years I have little good to say about them - noisy, over-lit, tiny toilets (except for the wheelchair ones), poor catering with trolleys, such as they are, frequently unable to get through carriages due to overcrowding and blocking people trying to get on and off, no parcels capacity....etc.etc.

GT89 · 03-02-2021 6:19pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Not sure what the ICR hate is about either, without the ICRs there would probably be even less of the network still operating or viable.. They are a huge step forward for everyone(fare paying customers, CME dept and the accountants in Heuston) compared to clapped out 70s or 80s coaches hauled by increasing worn out locos needing run around at each end

I don't think the ICRs are that bad a train myself but they've been used too much as a one size fits all train. They are not suitable for commuter work as they are poor for standing passengers due to having single leaf doors and lots of bulkheads. The 29000s are much more suitable for commuter work and they aren't a great train either. I would much prefer proper commuter trains to be used on the Kildare services rather than ICRs.

It could also be argued that the ICRs are not comfortable enough for intercity work either.

Isambard · 03-02-2021 6:39pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I started out being happy with the introduction of the ICRs but having used them frequently over the years I have little good to say about them - noisy, over-lit, tiny toilets (except for the wheelchair ones), poor catering with trolleys, such as they are, frequently unable to get through carriages due to overcrowding and blocking people trying to get on and off, no parcels capacity....etc.etc.

Parcels capacity? you may as well moan they don't run on steam.

L1011 · 03-02-2021 6:51pm

Door to door courier firms made railway parcels ops completely unviable decades ago. It's astounding that they even kept trying as long as they did here

Fasttrack would have been closed in a cost cutting round and we'd have dead space being shuttled around on often crush capacity trains

DPD can get a box door to door nationwide next day for 4.50. You would have to pay people to deal with the hassle or dropping and collecting at railway stations during manned hours; not just undercut that for a tiny subset of the market that is near manned stations.

Lovely Victoriana concepts do not make for a viable railway

Del.Monte · 03-02-2021 7:03pm

Isambard wrote: »

Parcels capacity? you may as well moan they don't run on steam.

By the time CIE axed Fastrack they were charging almost more for a parcel than a passenger and you don't see any potential here?

Is the 201 class doomed for imminent withdrawn?

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