Walk slowly in the opposite direction......they will catch up

Siamsa Sessions · 20-01-2021 03:03PM

Jjameson wrote: »

Unlike direct sewage discharge..

I spoke to someone thru the off-farm job who works with a water catchment office, some sort of a civil service office set up by two county councils in the south-east of the country.

The only thing she knew was that farmers were polluting the rivers. I'm guessing she was just repeating the official, if never publicly stated, opinion of her bosses. Farmers needed to be educated not to spread slurry near rivers, etc. - that was the main gist of her approach. There was no mention of sewerage from towns and villages getting into rivers.

Whatever the breakdown of who causes the most pollution, it's farmers who are the easy target again for the Government. County councils will be happy with this as it means they're off the hook.

The fact that dairy is expanding fits this narrative very well. It must be them big dairy farmers poisoning the rivers!

Farmers are to blame in some cases, no question. And the odd court prosecution reported in the media means we're all tarred with the same brush, while the towns/villages/Gov tip-toe away.

blue5000 · 20-01-2021 05:02PM

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I spoke to someone thru the off-farm job who works with a water catchment office, some sort of a civil service office set up by two county councils in the south-east of the country.

The only thing she knew was that farmers were polluting the rivers. I'm guessing she was just repeating the official, if never publicly stated, opinion of her bosses. Farmers needed to be educated not to spread slurry near rivers, etc. - that was the main gist of her approach. There was no mention of sewerage from towns and villages getting into rivers.

Whatever the breakdown of who causes the most pollution, it's farmers who are the easy target again for the Government. County councils will be happy with this as it means they're off the hook.

The fact that dairy is expanding fits this narrative very well. It must be them big dairy farmers poisoning the rivers!

Farmers are to blame in some cases, no question. And the odd court prosecution reported in the media means we're all tarred with the same brush, while the towns/villages/Gov tip-toe away.

It wouldn't be too difficult for someone taking samples along a river to mix samples up. Let's say for the sake of argument a coco is discharging untreated sewage into a river just above bridge Z, What's to stop someone taking samples for the epa from taking two samples up river at bridge A where the water is pristine, mixing it or substituting it for sample Z? Who is going to know?

divillybit · 26-01-2021 06:09AM

I think waste water treatment facilities are unfairly blamed for causing pollution. Pollution does occur in times of high rainfall when the sewer network gets flooded with surface water. Treatment plants can't handle big inlet flows in very wet weather so it goes to the storm tank which overflows to the discharge when it is full. Plenty of housing developments diverted surface water from roofs in sewage networks which should have not been allowed. Yes there are many coastal locations discharging untreated sewage but inland, the vast majority of treatment plants work well. It's when they are overloaded beyond their design capacity that problems occur.

Reggie. · 26-01-2021 08:25AM

divillybit wrote: »

I think waste water treatment facilities are unfairly blamed for causing pollution. Pollution does occur in times of high rainfall when the sewer network gets flooded with surface water. Treatment plants can't handle big inlet flows in very wet weather so it goes to the storm tank which overflows to the discharge when it is full. Plenty of housing developments diverted surface water from roofs in sewage networks which should have not been allowed. Yes there are many coastal locations discharging untreated sewage but inland, the vast majority of treatment plants work well. It's when they are overloaded beyond their design capacity that problems occur.

Plenty of places with sewage pipes leading straight from houses to waterways in the midlands. Mostly council owned or built by council

Castlekeeper · 26-01-2021 09:48AM

K.G. wrote: »

Just to say that water quality seems to have a7 to 10 year time lag from actions to results so that would indicate that it is too early to say dairy expansion is related to water quality

Not if you're talking about a discharge coming down a dyke. Poor and reckless practices are the cause, regardless of source, and the time scale can be from immediate to decades, depending on the process.

Bass Reeves · 26-01-2021 10:06AM

I look at all this differently. It immaterial whether it cows or human waste is the issue. They are in the process of changing regulations as farmers we have to work with those regulations.

There has always been a tendancy in farm organisations not to speak about impending changes in regulation or not to discuss issues. You only have to looks at the last IFA election where on the question and answer with Justin McCarthy hard questions about nitrates, convergence and calf export was quickly passed by.

If the government change the rules farmers have to work to those rules. I think too many lads assume that these rules will be phased back through negotiation. If the nitrates rating of the dairy cow is anything to go by the changes will happen hard and fast.

We also need to remember that the Green party is in government and that will effect the willingness to allow stepping back on new regulations even if there was wriggle room

Say my name · 26-01-2021 10:14AM

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Not if you're talking about a discharge coming down a dyke. Poor and reckless practices are the cause, regardless of source, and the time scale can be from immediate to decades, depending on the process.

Passing by a potato field this morning and with the rain and snow melt there was a flood of red water full of soil coming out on the road and down in the river.
Now that's pretty immediate..

I actually don't get how the operator there still does it. It's a field uphill of a road. So whenever it rains there's soil washing onto the road and down the river. It's been like this these past three years. A rented field.

I don't know if you saw but the water authority in the UK flew over a tilled field that had gullies torn into it and soil washed down river. It was a tweet that drew a bit of attention from a few.

jaymla627 · 26-01-2021 12:00PM

Jjameson wrote: »

Some 20 years ago a friend of mine jacked in the milk because amongst the reasons “impending doom”. All the things coming that had his cubicle house and open yard not fit for purpose , parlour and so on.
Farm is let.
For the last 12 years he has bring doing AI and from visiting places for over a decade all the farms that were in the position he was and an awful lot worse then built slurry tanks and are motoring on just fine.
His farm is being rented by big dairy farmer(a medium sized man with 250+ cows)
These are being milked on the home farm, walk into the parlour together and out together. Concentrating three farms nutrients into one area in some ways bar a lot of tankering!
Remember the blotting paper effect.
Several small dots of black ink or a few large spillages. Which paper looks whiter?

Their is alot of head in the sand stuff with farms stocked on the home block at 4 plus cows ha and simply talking ground for maps to get themselves out of bother, it's not really defensible the nitrogen p and k Loadings on this ground, coupled with huge amounts of fertiliser going out on it, we are going to get to a point where simply the max n allowances both natural and artificial will be slashed and the only way around this will be to actually putting out your fertiliser and slurry evenly over your entire acerage rather than just poisoning the milking block....
It might seem far fetched but you will see herds having to house cows either full-time our extended periods where your milking platform is stocked high to ensure you remain compliant

Dickie10 · 27-01-2021 12:14AM

i would fear dairy goes the same way as beef , whats to stop another Larry in Dairy buying up a few coops and dairies? i see Kerry selling off shares last week, if these are bought by investment groups surely there sole mission is profit and so cut away at milk price once the supply lines are there lads can turn off the tap they are locked in. Would they just keep prices steady and start chipping away at it then. ? what is there to stop this happening?

jaymla627 · 27-01-2021 01:00AM

Dickie10 wrote: »

i would fear dairy goes the same way as beef , whats to stop another Larry in Dairy buying up a few coops and dairies? i see Kerry selling off shares last week, if these are bought by investment groups surely there sole mission is profit and so cut away at milk price once the supply lines are there lads can turn off the tap they are locked in. Would they just keep prices steady and start chipping away at it then. ? what is there to stop this happening?

If the arse fell out of milk for any prolonged period of time milk supply wouldn't be long falling of a cliff, bar lads who have the place mortgaged the vast majority who can would just pull the pin, Australia would be a good example, after they got rid of quotas and dairy boom of the early 2000's like Ireland present day every one bar the dog went milking cows, after the milk price collapse in 2016 and privately owned processors paying peanuts, alot of farms pulled the pin and present day you now have lots of factories mothballed as milk supply has fallen of a cliff

Dickie10 · 27-01-2021 08:55PM

so that happened in Oz? I would imagine its on the cards here, the day of coops i thought was gone. if theres money in something you can be sure there a private company hovering around ready to swoop

Mooooo · 27-01-2021 09:18PM

The difference in the coops is the members would have to approve it. Glanbia/ Kerry are different entities to a degree so would be different

jaymla627 · 27-01-2021 09:55PM

Dickie10 wrote: »

so that happened in Oz? I would imagine its on the cards here, the day of coops i thought was gone. if theres money in something you can be sure there a private company hovering around ready to swoop

Good article on it, was out their working on dairy farms for two years in 2011/2012 of the four farms I was on 3 lads sold up in the intervening years and the fourth was a investment fund set-up
https://www.farmonline.com.au/story/6868427/dairy-farmers-shaking-up-milk-supply-arrangements/

Dickie10 · 27-01-2021 10:17PM

would private investments funds not just come in offer members big money for shares , too good to turn down/once in a lifetime stuff and then there in.

davidk1394 · 27-01-2021 10:52PM

The farm I was on was mainly owned by the Chinese but the family was managing the day to day operations. A lot of smaller dairies (200-400 cow farms) sold out to them then. Dairy farming out there wouldn't be as nice as here.

Bass Reeves · 28-01-2021 01:12AM

Dickie10 wrote: »

would private investments funds not just come in offer members big money for shares , too good to turn down/once in a lifetime stuff and then there in.

You have to run it then with manager and staff. It easier to try find lads willing to produce it for a wage. Dairying no matter which way you do it is labour intensive. One man could run a 500 acre drystock farm by contracting slurry and silage. At milk every 80-100 cows is another labour unit. Technology is expensive and cows do not weight to be milked.

An interesting one what will a lad with a rotary milking parlour do if the electricity is out for 2-3 days

dar31 · 28-01-2021 07:59AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

An interesting one what will a lad with a rotary milking parlour do if the electricity is out for 2-3 days

Generator

Grueller · 28-01-2021 09:29AM

dar31 wrote: »

Generator

Same as any parlour sure.

The boss here made me put a genny in when I was building the parlour. Money was tight enough but in I had to put it. I got the electrician to wire it on a Tuesday and then that Thursday night we had the lightning storm last summer. It blew the transformer out in the field and I was without power for 3 milkings. Fairly glad of the boss' advice then.

Bass Reeves · 28-01-2021 09:36AM

Grueller wrote: »

Same as any parlour sure.

The boss here made me put a genny in when I was building the parlour. Money was tight enough but in I had to put it. I got the electrician to wire it on a Tuesday and then that Thursday night we had the lightning storm last summer. It blew the transformer out in the field and I was without power for 3 milkings. Fairly glad of the boss' advice then.

Technically yes but it will take s fair belter of a generator to move a rotary parlour around. It's would be a fairly heavy three phase generator. I not b surprise if such a generator costs 50k plus

davidk1394 · 28-01-2021 09:41AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Technically yes but it will take s fair belter of a generator to move a rotary parlour around. It's would be a fairly heavy three phase generator. I not b surprise if such a generator costs 50k plus

All new builds under TAMS must have a changeover switch if a power outage happens. Probably a generator over 110kva is needed for a rotary.

Mooooo · 28-01-2021 09:53AM

Three phase can cost as much depending on location, a genny similarly just has to be built in to the project cost

K.G. · 28-01-2021 09:58AM

Mooooo wrote: »

Three phase can cost as much depending on location, a genny similarly just has to be built in to the project cost

A friend that set up second farm ran for a few months on a generater while a power problem was being sorted said it was cheaper than esb

Bass Reeves · 28-01-2021 10:16AM

I know a few gas clubs wend down the generator route for power for floodlit pitches where three phase was required. However this was where three phase was required and was only used intermittently. They had coated this against a generator. Standing charge influenced the decision along with initial installation of supply.

An outside farm might be in a similar position where the supply of three phase was a distance away. The ESB charge by distance supply has to come from. A generator for a rotary parlour would require a room/ building for generator. One that size would be a fair noisy and you would want it situated in the right place to suppress noise in the parlour and away from any houses especially if it was used as the supply as opposed to backup

Mooooo · 28-01-2021 10:27AM

Was on a farm where the generator ran the whole show for 2 years due to esb delays. Yard built in to a hill so easier to sound proof but concrete over head when the the space can be used reduced noise considerably, in machine and generator room. Have to change suppliers yearly to manage esb costs, they don't be long jumping prices yearly

dar31 · 28-01-2021 10:34AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Technically yes but it will take s fair belter of a generator to move a rotary parlour around. It's would be a fairly heavy three phase generator. I not b surprise if such a generator costs 50k plus

3 phase tractor driven generator, think its 35kva may be bigger was €3500 +vat 5 yes ago.

Don't think rotary are as power hungry as you think.

Edit 44 kva actually

Hard Knocks · 28-01-2021 10:39AM

dar31 wrote: »

3 phase tractor driven generator, think its 35kva may be bigger was €3500 +vat 5 yes ago.

Don't think rotary are as power hungry as you think.

Would a small turbine and/or solar with backup battery be an alternative to a generator?

yosemitesam1 · 28-01-2021 10:46AM

dar31 wrote: »

Don't think rotary are as power hungry as you think.

It takes something like 2hp to actually turn the rotary, very little extra energy in the scheme of things

Bass Reeves · 28-01-2021 10:54AM

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Would a small turbine and/or solar with backup battery be an alternative to a generator?

It would be more expensive than a generator. You have to transform up to three phase. You need a good size battery bank to store enough supply for 2-3 days power. You are still back to a generator if you need backup any more than a smaller generator would do to recharge batteries.

Bass Reeves · 28-01-2021 10:57AM

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

It takes something like 2hp to actually turn the rotary, very little extra energy in the scheme of things

That sounds very little to move about 50 ton minimum I say

yosemitesam1 · 28-01-2021 11:01AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

That sounds very little to move about 50 ton minimum I say

Ye, I thought the same when a friend who put one in was telling me. But the whole thing is so well balanced and turns so slowly that it is all that it takes

Walk slowly in the opposite direction......they will catch up

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