Do all broadband providers use the same network/ cabling infrastructure

NewClareman · 30-12-2020 11:50AM

AutoTuning wrote: »

To be quite honest that doesn’t really make much difference either way. They’re moving away from the classic digital exchanges, which use TDM (time division multiplexing) technology for voice and ISDN and over to VoIP platforms....

They’ll retain the ability to provide voice over copper using much smaller VoIP based MSAN technology in the exchange.

I was just wondering if it had ever happened.

The days of specialised hardware, including digital exchanges, are gone. Or, in eircom's case, soon will be. The only reason they would need VoIP technology somewhere local, not necessarily in local exchanges, is to be able to provide phone service during a power outage. I'm not so sure that that will continue to hold up, now that mobile technology is so widespread.

NewClareman · 30-12-2020 12:02PM

TheDriver wrote: »

Most people don't have a bulls notion about VDSL vs FTTH...

Which is a good thing, in my opinion. All they should need to know is whether the service they are getting will meet their needs.

I take my hat off to the marketing wing of the service providers who sold so many people on 'fibre to the home'. Most do not need it and for some it is an unnecessary expense.

My own brother, long retired, upgraded to an expensive fibre package. Asked why, all he could say was that it was a better package. All well and good, but he only uses broadband for general browsing and email.

TheDriver · 30-12-2020 12:39PM

NewClareman wrote: »

Which is a good thing, in my opinion. All they should need to know is whether the service they are getting will meet their needs.

I take my hat off to the marketing wing of the service providers who sold so many people on 'fibre to the home'. Most do not need it and for some it is an unnecessary expense.

My own brother, long retired, upgraded to an expensive fibre package. Asked why, all he could say was that it was a better package. All well and good, but he only uses broadband for general browsing and email.

I agree totally. A proper internal setup is the main thing in any home which most people don't fathom. The cheap VF modem/router may do a tidy 3 bed semi but not a 3000 sq ft detached home, especially if you want 5Ghz wifi.
The issue with VDSL for a family home (ie 4 people streaming at once) is that a 30Mb VDSL package will struggle, especially with 4k netflix streams.
You are correct in the marketing lads though but another point you make is the price point. SIRO seems to have a good switching setup so annual contract renewal or provider change should be there with elec/gas price lock for the year.
I think some of it comes from tie you TV with your BB which rules out a lot of suppliers and hence you're stuck with the price.

AutoTuning · 30-12-2020 12:49PM

NewClareman wrote: »

I was just wondering if it had ever happened.

The days of specialised hardware, including digital exchanges, are gone. Or, in eircom's case, soon will be. The only reason they would need VoIP technology somewhere local, not necessarily in local exchanges, is to be able to provide phone service during a power outage. I'm not so sure that that will continue to hold up, now that mobile technology is so widespread.

The PSTN in Ireland was always based on distributed systems. The vendors, in Eir’s case Ericsson & Nokia (acquired Alcatel) produced IP based soft switches that run on generic servers as software. Those have already replaced large core exchanges. So all that is left in reality is the local edge layer exchanges that provide basic phone and ISDN access to end users. They’re basically just dumb racks of line cards that process voice / send dial tones. The higher functions are already just software on servers.

The issue now is that that edge layer infrastructure is getting very old and parts are no longer made. There were originally plans in most telcos to replace all of that with IP based gear, but demand for landlines is fizzling out and also VoIP technology, using a model/router/ATA box in your house is more practical and cost effective than maintaining long copper lines or complex equipment in cabinets.

So basically you’ll see PSTN services retained but, with the vast majority using pure VoIP and no dial tones and analogue paths at all. That hugely simplifies the network - less wiring, less hardware etc etc

NewClareman · 30-12-2020 03:22PM

AutoTuning wrote: »

So basically you’ll see PSTN services retained but, with the vast majority using pure VoIP and no dial tones and analogue paths at all. That hugely simplifies the network - less wiring, less hardware etc etc

The problem with pure VoIP is that you lose your PSTN service, should you lose mains power in the premises. As eircom had a Universal Service mandate, they were required by ComReg to maintain a POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) service for every premises that required it. That is why some premises are still served with copper for PSTN, even when using Fibre Broadband.

I don't know whether the regulatory situation has changed. However, I cant imagine why eircom would continue to invest in IP-based edge equipment if it has.

On the trip down memory lane...

The need for distributed systems ended when the last Strowger Switches were retired, in the 80's. They were first replaced by electro-mechanical crossbar switches, before moving to digital switches from Ericssons and Alcatel. All three technologies allowed for a main exchange with small remote satellite units. The satellite units contained line cards for the POTS service and, in some cases, very limited local switching/routing.

Two main exchanges from each vendor (primary + backup) would have have easily served the entire country. Just like what is now being envisaged with VoIP. This would have meant that only limited local infrastructure, to house the 'Remote Service Units', was all that was required. However this was unacceptable politically as P&T/Telecom Eireann was an important source of employment. It was only with privatisation that the exchange network was rationalised.

NewClareman · 30-12-2020 03:31PM

TheDriver wrote: »

I agree totally. A proper internal setup is the main thing in any home which most people don't fathom. The cheap VF modem/router may do a tidy 3 bed semi but not a 3000 sq ft detached home, especially if you want 5Ghz wifi.
The issue with VDSL for a family home (ie 4 people streaming at once) is that a 30Mb VDSL package will struggle, especially with 4k netflix streams.
You are correct in the marketing lads though but another point you make is the price point. SIRO seems to have a good switching setup so annual contract renewal or provider change should be there with elec/gas price lock for the year.
I think some of it comes from tie you TV with your BB which rules out a lot of suppliers and hence you're stuck with the price.

VDSL can easily provide over 150Mbps, from a kerbside cabinet located close to the home. It then becomes an issue of the lifetime cost of this approach, compared to all-fibre. I suspect that the pendulum has swung more towards fibre, as the copper network ages.

The problem with switching for many people is that, unlike gas or electricity, the complexity is just too great. I know people can use their own router, and avoid most of that complexity. However, that is well beyond many peoples capabilities.

NBAiii · 30-12-2020 06:09PM

AutoTuning wrote: »

There are only: 560,209 residential and 78,944 business subscriptions in total and the majority are FTTC (cabinet launched not exchange based).

VDSL
<2Mbps. 0%
2Mbps - 9.99Mbps 2.0%
=10Mbps - 29.99Mbps 9.8%
=30Mbps - 99.99Mbps 88.2% (mostly cabinet bases or short lines from exchange).

There’s fairly significant progress with FTTP (fibre to the premises) from both openEir and Siro.

Residential 2020: Q1 191,308 vs Q2 212,566

With the Urban rollout underway now that will accelerate very rapidly. So you’ll likely see FTTH replacing VDSL as the largest share of fixed broadband within a few years.

To be quite honest that doesn’t really make much difference either way. They’re moving away from the classic digital exchanges, which use TDM (time division multiplexing) technology for voice and ISDN and over to VoIP platforms. In general, if you’ve FTTH, cable or fast VDSL your voice services will be more likely delivered using VoBB (voice over broadband) using VoIP enabled router. That’s already standard issue for most new broadband subscriptions on VDSL or FTTH and had always been the case on cable services.

They’ll retain the ability to provide voice over copper using much smaller VoIP based MSAN technology in the exchange. Ultimately that will likely be a fairly niche product for a % of people who hang onto dial tone services. Eir has already applied to ComReg asking to shut down basic rate ISDN by 2024, as they’re not intending to retain it on any MSAN platform.

The digital exchanges are at or beyond end of life at this stage. It’s easy to forget that we’re now looking at technology that is up to 40 years old (with incremental updates along the way) Their vendors didn’t expect them to be in service at this stage, so they’re really no longer actively supported as current technology. So any of the landline providers around the world still using them need to get a move on.

In the past decade or so, the notion that these companies are primarily telephone operators has been turned on its head. Eir is a broadband provider that has legacy voice services. Virgin is a broadband company that has legacy tv services. Their voice and television services are really just applications on a broadband access network nowadays. So the idea of combining DSL and voice on single line cards is a bit irrelevant nowadays.

You'll notice I said paths not subscriptions. My figures are from official Openeir data.

I'm not sure how you can quantify how many are eVDSL from Comreg speed data. Pretty much every rural exchange, urban also but as you say FTTH more likely there, in the country has direct fed lines. This will be a future issue as such premises will not be included in the NBP (as they meet the 30Mb/s cut-off). Eir also skipped over them for their rural rollout so they will be potentially be left in limbo.

ED E · 30-12-2020 10:46PM

AutoTuning wrote: »

I also had a chat with a guy moaning and moaning about the state of broadband in his village. He was on ADSL and paying way over the odds, yet the whole area was wired for FTTH. He was just in misery me - “sure there’s no brooaaadband, other than above in Dublin!” mode.

I frequent a part of Galway with full FTTH for ages, load still on ER ADSL or Imagine. Mind boggles.

AutoTuning · 30-12-2020 11:02PM

ED E wrote: »

I frequent a part of Galway with full FTTH for ages, load still on ER ADSL or Imagine. Mind boggles.

The ISPs should get the finger out and do some visual advertising. A lot of people don’t know when FTTH is available in their area. A few signs up “real fibre optic, gigabit broadband now available!! Your street is now more desirable!”

Gooey Looey · 30-12-2020 11:05PM

AutoTuning wrote: »

The ISPs should get the finger out and do some visual advertising. A lot of people don’t know when FTTH is available in their area. A few signs up “real fibre optic, gigabit broadband now available!! Your street is now more desirable!”

Competing with the fiver cheaper imagine fibre powered broadband, there's only one winner!

AutoTuning · 30-12-2020 11:07PM

Fibre powered should be entirely banned as a term. I mean 1980s telephone exchanges were potentially connected by fibre. So you could call a fax machine or a dial up modem fibre powered.

TheDriver · 31-12-2020 12:57AM

Buy our Sh*t broadband wouldn't sell many, even if it describes some products out there

AutoTuning · 31-12-2020 01:39AM

*Cooper Powered Broadband

NewClareman · 31-12-2020 01:22PM

AutoTuning wrote: »

Fibre powered should be entirely banned as a term. I mean 1980s telephone exchanges were potentially connected by fibre. So you could call a fax machine or a dial up modem fibre powered.

I agree, it is entirely misleading. When I first came across the term I thought it meant VDSL, from a FTTC cabinet.

Having said that, most people are now so sold on "fibre" they don't want to buy anything else. It's high time the focus switched back to the service being provided and let the service provider worry about how it is delivered.

As an example, I've a subscription to a number of daily newspapers. I often forget to change back to broadband, when at home. It actually doesn't matter, they download equally well using a GoMo SIM. My point being that it should be possible to buy a newspaper subscription, that included the e-reader and connectivity. Let the vendor worry about the delivery mechanism.

ED E · 02-01-2021 09:58AM

I dont think rabbit hole covers this, maybe the aillwee caves is apt.

AutoTuning · 02-01-2021 05:34PM

Broadband in a cave is a tad challenging.

Main point is just don’t assume every broadband provider is just reselling Eir’s retail broadband offering and Siro is only an access network. It doesn’t sell broadband itself.

Virgin is a closed network running only over its own access infrastructure. So is nothing to do with either and the wireless providers do their own thing too.

They all have their own arrangements over various combinations of owned and leased networking equipment, fibre routes and international connectivity.

The speed from your house to the edge of the network (OpenEir cabinet or exchange or the FTTH node if you’re on Siro or OpenEir full fibre services) will be exactly the same for all the internet companies they’re providing access for. However, beyond that it’s down to the company that you’re buying from and it’s important to read reviews.

The structure of the old phone networks and the legacy of Eircom providing or dominating broadband are basically historical now. You’re looking at a situation where within 5 years I would say relatively few people who want a gigabit fibre connection won’t be able to get it either through OpenEir, Siro or the national broadband project in rural areas. Obviously there’ll be outliers but for the majority of the country that’s where we are headed.

The technology behind the old phone network that provided your classic dial tone and voice service from a socket on the walk is basically on its way to a skip by 2024 or so. It’s obsolete and that’s the same scenario everywhere in Europe and North America and everywhere else.

The legacy of it will be just the shape of the OpenEir fibre network. Exchanges are becoming fibre aggregation nodes and the 46 odd big exchanges will still be significant routing and interconnection nodes with some of them being the points where internet traffic gets handed over to other companies.

Regardless of what technology is used the basic buildings, ducts, poles and all of that physical infrastructure is still going to be around in some shape or other.

What you’re looking at really is the end of the PSTN (public switched telephone network) and its replacement by public fibre access networks that carry anything you like. Cable TV providers are also no longer that - they’re just broadband networks. Even mobile companies are increasingly “dumb pipes”. They are just providing access to the internet with the phone and text bit being secondary, if still important. More and more calls go “over the top” using VoIP services - WhatsApp, FaceTime etc and the vast majority of texting has already moved to instant messaging services. So like it or not - they’re all now just internet access platforms.

Voice phone services are just an app. Could be provided by any company with a rack of servers somewhere and predominantly through your mobile phone.

I just think people are far too worried about loss or power on the line. The fibre to home services aren’t really impacted by that on the network side as there’s no active equipment needed in cabinets on GPON networks. So once you’re away from VDSL, that’s no longer an issue.

If you’re that worried about it in your home get a UPS battery back up unit. They’re not that expensive and you just plug your router equipment into it like you would any other power socket and if the power goes off, you’ve a few hours of back up. Routers aren’t very power hungry.

My power has literally been off maybe twice in ten years and that’s been relatively short interruption.

If your power is going off regularly, you’d probably have more to be worried about than fibre routers and should probably consider a backup system if you’re in a very far flung, storm exposed area.

Also if someone is thinking PSTN phones are safer for alarm monitoring. They’re not. They’ll just find and snip the line be it copper or fibre unless it’s well protected, which in general it isn’t.

For alarms you should really use well designed mobile monitoring in this day an age, but nothing’s invincible.

With any services - read reviews! Ask around and pick based on that. They’re not all the same by any means.

NewClareman · 03-01-2021 04:10PM

AutoTuning wrote: »

The technology behind the old phone network that provided your classic dial tone and voice service from a socket on the walk is basically on its way to a skip by 2024 or so. It’s obsolete and that’s the same scenario everywhere in Europe and North America and everywhere ....

More and more calls go “over the top” using VoIP services - WhatsApp, FaceTime etc and the vast majority of texting has already moved to instant messaging services. So like it or not - they’re all now just internet access platforms...

Voice phone services are just an app. Could be provided by any company with a rack of servers somewhere and predominantly through your mobile phone...

I just think people are far too worried about loss or power on the line....

I agree with all of the above. However, it was COMREG that insisted that a phone service must be available that worked even when power was cut. I've no idea whether that directive is still in place. If it isn't, I don't understand why eircom is still investing in line cards, now with ip-based connectivity to a central switch, to continue to provide what is a dying service. Maybe some other poster here can provide an answer to this.

AutoTuning · 04-01-2021 02:05AM

They’re not investing in line cards.

Their stated intention is to retire the PSTN by end of 2024 and replace it with much smaller MSAN (multi service access nodes) between now and then. They’ve a solution for maintaining ISDN for a few years, which involves retaining a small aspect of the local Nokia E10 and Ericsson AXE switches, hosted on IP soft-switches (from the same vendors) to provide ISDN services until 2024 and allow the last legacy users of that technology to move to modern IP data or VoIP services for office systems and so on.

They won’t be cutting off landline services, just vastly reducing the complexity of the network behind the land using modern softswitch technologies. You’ll still be able to use a basic phone be it plugged into a dial tone from an MSAN or into a VoIP router.

That’s their submission to request to close basic rate ISDN : https://www.comreg.ie/publication-download/eircoms-request-to-withdraw-access-to-integrated-services-digital-network-isdn-basic-rate-access-bra

There’s a lot of nonsense ComReg has been pushing, including the retention of pay phones for some reason. They could be replaced with something far more useful. Pay phones are long gone in many other European markets. It’s all a bit train spotter / stamp collector in my opinion - holding onto clapped out, obsolete technology for the sake of it.

Time to move on!

NewClareman · 04-01-2021 08:35PM

AutoTuning wrote: »

They’re not investing in line cards.

Their stated intention is to retire the PSTN by end of 2024 and replace it with much smaller MSAN (multi service access nodes) between now and then. ...

Time to move on!

I understand what they are doing, what I don't understand is why they are doing this, at all.

AutoTuning · 04-01-2021 09:09PM

NewClareman wrote: »

I understand what they are doing, what I don't understand is why they are doing this, at all.

Well, there's still a demand for phone-line only service. They're not going to just throw those customers away.

Do all broadband providers use the same network/ cabling infrastructure

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