Living Under Regulation

_Brian wrote: »

If you actually read what I said I’m not having a pop at anyone.

Slurry and effluent are pollutants as I said, that’s a fact. I didn’t say the farmers were polluting anything.

But across industry any business storing and handling large volumes of substances that are considered pollutants would need EPA licensing, particularly if the plan is to spread these products on land.

I'm afraid It is having a pop re pollutants
Everything humanity is involved in or turns its hands to will invariably be a pollutant there's a minority causing issues in agriculture the should and will be stopped as another poster said storage is a problem on some farms and also some not regarding regulations who are spoiling farmings good reputation in Ireland but also some nutrients are allowed to be spread during the closed periods as long as the weather conditions are adhered to as in dairy washings
I would argue that people outside of agriculture have a much larger polluting footprint than farmers themselves and we are seen as a soft touch to solve the problems

Jesus tis pure ground hog day around here, meeting same ould heads most of them nervous. Don't look like they are going to open up the local pub/ comunity centre/ escape from the wife and kids/happy place for Christmas. It's going to be a very long winter.

_Brian wrote: »

I didn’t say farmers were polluters though. You inferred that.

I was pointing out that many other industries holdingTens of thousands of gallons of pollutants need eps licence to do so, farms for the moment are being spared this.

I work outside the farming industry as well and while farmers may think they are over regulated compared to other industries, it’s just not so.

Agree 100% that farming,when compared to other sectors, is not over regulated by any means.

Think the problem/issue is that any penalty or delay in any payment has a disproportionate effect on a farm compared to other sectors.
How often do we read of this or that company being fined large sums and they trade away ?
Also a farm inspection is usually personal responsibility unlike say in a pharma company where its just a job that you have to do as part of your responsibilities. Big difference.

All thst said not too sure what the big worry is at times.Take a 20k BPS with maybe glas and bdgp sheep welfare payment etc .
A 3% penalty is 600/800 euro: sore but not life changing.One dead bullock or more likely a few dead sheep would amount to this.
A dead lamb is 100 euro and would just take it as part and parcel of farming.
Sometimes people get too caught up in worrying about things and a little perspective is needed.

Another issue I suppose is the total imbalance of power or even the perceived imbalance when an inspection takes place.
Neighbour had taken over farm here after sudden death of his father and had full cross compliance about a month into his unexpectedly early farming career.
Worried sick about it.I pointed out that a 5% penalty would equate to about 2 days wages in his previous job and how often had he taken time off there without pay.

_Brian wrote: »

100% agree.
But many sole traders struggle with regulatory paperwork.

It is hard though, particularly when maybe other stuff is going not the best to get things out of proportion. I’d be very guilty of that myself.

Think that's the problem at times;getting things out of proportion.

When you actually think about it,a cross compliance penalty of a couple of hundred euro is not the sort of life changing event to worry about.

That said,when its you and you alone that has the worry,hassle etc then it can become a bigger issue.Its like going to the dentist,the thinking about beforehand is worse than the actual experience.

About 25 years ago was driving down Capel St. in Dublin after bringing someone to a hospital appointment .Phone rings and its at the time a well known (in not a good way) Dept. inspector telling me I was due a REPS inspection.I says sound when you coming and he tells me he is about a mile away on another farm and be there in 20 minutes.
That was worry.We were spreading pig slurry on a field that really shouldn't have been happening plus all the other (in my mind) little bits that I had wrong.
Lets just say I made good time home and landed down to the yard to find him finishing up.Bit of plamas and a few questions from me in a harmless way and he off on his way.
I asked if any issues and he says no not really.Delighted till I rang planner and he tells me that at times they will not let you know if they think you might have a problem on the day.
Few years into it at this stage and me thinking where the fcuk I could find 20k to pay it back.

Bout a week later got full REPS payment.

_Brian wrote: »

100% agree.
But many sole traders struggle with regulatory paperwork.

It is hard though, particularly when maybe other stuff is going not the best to get things out of proportion. I’d be very guilty of that myself.

A local farm advisor here will do everything for you at not a dear price, I think its the best money a farmer could spend if they don't like paperwork or haven't time to do it.
Wasn't there a poster here that had set up a company for registering calves and medicines book? Great service aswell that would take alot of weight off a farmers shoulders if that type of work

893bet wrote: »

What type of info are they still asking for?

Merchant statments/invoices for animal feeds purchased in 2017

Bullocks wrote: »

A local farm advisor here will do everything for you at not a dear price, I think its the best money a farmer could spend if they don't like paperwork or haven't time to do it.
Wasn't there a poster here that had set up a company for registering calves and medicines book? Great service aswell that would take alot of weight off a farmers shoulders if that type of work

See our local Education Board (CMETB) advertising today free training for farmers on computer related aspects of farming. Great opportunity for lads to get some free training.

Deleted User wrote: »

I could be corrected, but I think the convergence figure is €150/ha.

My post wasn't about the money, everyone needs money to get along in life.

But rather when whatever % of someone's income can be taken away due to omissions or mistakes - and I have heard some right horror stories. It has farmers living in fear tbh.

I don't blame the inspectors, they're just out doing a job as best they can.

But as someone above said, I'd far rather get paid the proper price for what I produce - which could be a diversity of things - than suck the cheque tit, being blunt about it, I feel farmers are held hostage in a system that's does us more harm than good.

I accept that where food is involved and therefore peoples health that there will always be some amount of regulation, but the ease of which the system allows for some harsh penalties is beyond the pale.

At least if an individual can make more of their living selling direct that insulates them from penalties, the word has gone all brexitish but it's down to retaining control over one's business and life.

I'm serious when I say I'll be happy when I can post the cheque back.

Looking for a proper price for your produce is idealistic, dreamland even and not gonna happen. Everyone would love to be in a financial position to send the money back..... but would you send it back even then, don't think so .
It's a bit sad of those that claim that larry is getting the subsidies, it's been many many years since an animal here didn't make a decent profit, so the subs only go to larry if farmers are stupid enough to let them, ie. as in those buying store cattle at the moment and actually it's the store producer that's getting the beef producers sub subs this year .

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not planning on operating in the markets you may think I am, nor producing race to the bottom commodities at the expense of first world input prices. That's not a criticism of anyone who does, that's their choice.

As for idealism and dreamland, we can park that as it doesn't bring us on anywhere.

Would I exchange receipt of money for a fair whack less of rules once I had replaced that money with another source, yes, I sure would.

The happiest farmers I've met are ones that don't get a cheque.

I wouldn't even try to guess what you're at, people have to be innovative now to make it.
Have a nephew that tries to have new ideas too, he had one of hte first balers and wrappers in the country and cleaned up the first few years, It's a race to the bottom now it's so cutthroat, he moved on to other things and they too got competitive. I got leader funding for another nephew to set up, but his business is hard work and no one is going to take his business in a hurry.
Best of luck anyway with whatever you're at

Say my name wrote: »

That's the european Sentinel earth monitoring satellites.
It used to be available to the public online but I think it's gone corporate and only available from companies now selling that info back to farmers.
Before you could clearly see the differences of fert spread on headlands, there was a carbon option to compare between fields, moisture, etc, etc. That infra red option was there to view 'through' clouds.

I'll sound like a right rogue of a farmer but this information has been available to the authorities since before 2018. It's just lucky that the depts are giving fair warning that they'll start using it next year when for the last three years it could have been used.

It would have been nice to have an office job or be born with a thousand acres. :pac:

Nothing stopping them from a having a look back either, they probably will anyway.

Say my name wrote: »

The land is not your own anymore.

Johnny in foxrock now dictates what you do with that land. Social freedom, justice, license, overlords, whatever.

I'd agree. But it's the way it's gone and I doubt there's no going back.
Unfortunately it'll mean that those that can afford to comply will go on, those that can't may set or sell to those that can which will mean more consolidation at odds with what is preached about small family farms being cherished by those who shout loudest.
The whole thing is being steered to the English way of large company farms. Despite the soundbites.

I've yet to hear what plans those who campaigned to #stopthecap wanted brought in.
So I don't know if I agree or disagree with Mick Wallace et al.

Has there ever been any discussion , even here in Ireland with regard to farmers being subsided as against true payment for food ?
Subsidies are compensation for the primary producer not receiving a true price for product .
Yet every year there are more and conditions attached
No union worth its salt would have allowed this to evolve