M20 and Rail alternatives for Limerick to Cork travel

trellheim · 02-12-2020 12:11PM

With a modest spend beyond the level crossing replacement what extra benefits could be easily done Cork-Limerick ? If you build M20 outer ring to outer ring should drop to 70 mins or so driving it so rail would need to be competitive which I can't see unless you toll the M20 at port tunnel peak hours levels.

riddlinrussell · 02-12-2020 02:59PM

trellheim wrote: »

With a modest spend beyond the level crossing replacement what extra benefits could be easily done Cork-Limerick ? If you build M20 outer ring to outer ring should drop to 70 mins or so driving it so rail would need to be competitive which I can't see unless you toll the M20 at port tunnel peak hours levels.

Rail doesn't need to be 'competitive' at least not time wise, there are a lot of knock on effects outside of the Cork to Limerick journey to some of the proposed changes, if the proposed works were to include reconfiguring Limerick Junction, Closing all LCs LJ to Colbert, *maybe* dualling. You get a massive increase in operational flexibility for IE. Direct Cork/Limerick trains is one benefit, and those can now have a far higher frequency (rolling stock permitting), Improved frequency and speed also possible for Dublin/Limerick, Dublin/Cork (Due to operational improvements at LJ and the aforementioned closed LCs on the Cork line)

Depending on the level of work proposed at LJ you could *maybe* go as far as through train options from Limerick towards Waterford (Probably pie in the sky) And that could be made a more attractive service as a result.

cgcsb · 02-12-2020 03:32PM

trellheim wrote: »

With a modest spend beyond the level crossing replacement what extra benefits could be easily done Cork-Limerick ? If you build M20 outer ring to outer ring should drop to 70 mins or so driving it so rail would need to be competitive which I can't see unless you toll the M20 at port tunnel peak hours levels.

By rail at present, 90 minutes, including a 7 minute wait to change is possible. Reconfiguring LJ to allow for direct trains, removing level crossings (already happening), 70 minute journeys are of course possible and this would be a modest investment. the dualing/electrification of L to LJ plus future Cork-Dub upgrade would mean rail journey times would be well ahead of motorway.

At present there are lots of intercity rail journey times nowhere near competitive with road, as a result of decades of under investment in rail. Some notable examples:

Dublin to Belfast, Galway, Sligo, Wexford
Galway to Limerick

Cookiemunster · 02-12-2020 03:49PM

Everyone keeps talking about beating motorway times with trains. This though ignores the fact that the vast a majority of city to city traffic is freight. There is very little demand for private city center to city center travel. Most traffic of the current N20 is commuting from North County Cork and County Limerick to industrial estates around Limerick City or from the Mallow area to industrial estates around Cork City.

Beating motorway city center to city center times won't entice anyone onto a train that they've no use for.

riddlinrussell · 03-12-2020 10:41AM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Everyone keeps talking about beating motorway times with trains. This though ignores the fact that the vast a majority of city to city traffic is freight. There is very little demand for private city center to city center travel. Most traffic of the current N20 is commuting from North County Cork and County Limerick to industrial estates around Limerick City or from the Mallow area to industrial estates around Cork City.

Beating motorway city center to city center times won't entice anyone onto a train that they've no use for.

Exactly, the main benefits of improving the rail along here will be operational and allow IE to offer better services that work for more people (hopefully)

rebs23 · 04-12-2020 11:56AM

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Exactly, the main benefits of improving the rail along here will be operational and allow IE to offer better services that work for more people (hopefully)

Another reason for a direct link from Charleville to Limerick is that it significantly increases the long term viability of the Limerick to Galway line as it creates a direct link from Cork to Galway. It's fair to say that Limerick-Galway along with Limerick - Ballybrophy and Limerick - Waterford are three routes under most threat of closing due to very low passenger numbers.

riddlinrussell · 04-12-2020 12:21PM

rebs23 wrote: »

Another reason for a direct link from Charleville to Limerick is that it significantly increases the long term viability of the Limerick to Galway line as it creates a direct link from Cork to Galway. It's fair to say that Limerick-Galway along with Limerick - Ballybrophy and Limerick - Waterford are three routes under most threat of closing due to very low passenger numbers.

And as I said depending on the level of works at Limerick Junction, Galway-Waterford could be enabled and improve use on that line. Obviously there is more to be done on those routes if they are to provide value, but Limerick Junction being sorted and Dual track/passing loops on single track lines would dramatically change the operating patterns for many of our current routes for the better.

Sam Russell · 04-12-2020 01:52PM

riddlinrussell wrote: »

And as I said depending on the level of works at Limerick Junction, Galway-Waterford could be enabled and improve use on that line. Obviously there is more to be done on those routes if they are to provide value, but Limerick Junction being sorted and Dual track/passing loops on single track lines would dramatically change the operating patterns for many of our current routes for the better.

Of course Colbert needs work if there are to be through routes - the LJ to Ennis train changes end at Colbert.

riddlinrussell · 04-12-2020 02:14PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course Colbert needs work if there are to be through routes - the LJ to Ennis train changes end at Colbert.

Could that not be 'solved' with a double ended train? Driver can change ends during the stop at Colbert, its a major station so would imagine you'd do a long enough dwell at it. Of course you'd be right if we wanted some sort of Cork-Galway non-stop express, but I cant see a train passing Limerick without stopping.

Obviously the ideal solution would be 'closing the triangle' and a station adjacent to it, but how is that set up for the space to do it, and would a station there get local use?

L1011 · 04-12-2020 02:35PM

All our trains can be driven from both ends.

There's basically no way to create a through platform Limerick-Waterford; reversing would have to be used as is already done at Kilkenny and Killarney. Ditto other hypotheticals like Cork-Galway; whether via Mallow/LJ or a rebuilt line (unless you wanted to entirely skip Limerick!)

Moving the station further from the city is not an answer.

M20 and Rail alternatives for Limerick to Cork travel

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