US Presidential Election 2020 Thread II - Judgement Day(s)

Foxtrol · 13-11-2020 06:09PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's for them to decide. Ireland has still, I believe, one of the best education systems in the EU, why aren't the Irish dictating to the Italians, British, or Lithuanians how they should run their education systems? Maybe because it's their own business, and the Irish would equally resent the Europeans saying something like "You must put at least 2% into your defense budget like the rest of us and buy fighters so we can stop patrolling your airspace?"

If someone living in Idaho thinks that their healthcare standard is below that of California, if they want to, they can vote for people to implement it in Idaho. They don't need, nor want, Californians coming in and telling them what's good for them.

The EU isn't the US though. Irish citizens don't pay significant federal taxes directly to an EU government.

These heavily red states that you claim have 'historically proven' to be able to govern themselves couldn't survive without other states paying their bills. For example, NY puts in around $20 billion a year more than they take out while Kentucky takes out around $45 billion more than they put in. Despite those payments from other states they are still terribly run.

If states want no 'interference' from the federal government they can pay their own way but instead they want to have their cake and eat it.

Brussels Sprout · 13-11-2020 06:16PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

For all their complaining about voter fraud, it looks like the GOP have found a new way to disenfranchise voters - running fake candidates to pull votes away from democrats. Examples of it happening in 2 states so far and presumably what they were hoping for with Kanye before he ruined his 'campaign' on day 1.

https://twitter.com/stuffie1977/status/1326950969662451712?s=20

The joys of First Past the Post!

Encouraging a no-hoper, minor candidate to run in an effort to siphon off votes from a rival is a tried and tested tactic in FPTP elections that don't have a 50% threshold for victory. One of the most famous deployments of this tactic was when Tommy Carcetti cynically encouraged his colleague Tony Gray to run against Mayor Royce, in Season 4 of The Wire, only for him to later join the primary race and win with a plurality of the vote as the two black candidates shared that voting block between them.

VinLieger · 13-11-2020 06:21PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

The joys of First Past the Post!

Encouraging a no-hoper, minor candidate to run in an effort to siphon off votes from a rival is a tried and tested tactic in FPTP elections that don't have a 50% threshold for victory. One of the most famous deployments of this tactic was when Tommy Carcetti cynically encouraged his colleague Tony Gray to run against Mayor Royce, in Season 4 of The Wire, only for him to later join the primary race and win with a plurality of the vote as the two black candidates shared that voting block between them.

IMO this is far more insidious and malicious, the carcetti story line and similar real world situations are just politics. The republicans, who we assume ran the candidates, specifically were trying to trick voters by running a candidate with a very similar name to the democrat.

TomOnBoard · 13-11-2020 06:22PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's for them to decide. Ireland has still, I believe, one of the best education systems in the EU, why aren't the Irish dictating to the Italians, British, or Lithuanians how they should run their education systems? Maybe because it's their own business, and the Irish would equally resent the Europeans saying something like "You must put at least 2% into your defense budget like the rest of us and buy fighters so we can stop patrolling your airspace?"

If someone living in Idaho thinks that their healthcare standard is below that of California, if they want to, they can vote for people to implement it in Idaho. They don't need, nor want, Californians coming in and telling them what's good for them.

The intended purpose of the Federal Government is laid out in the Constitution (Article 8), and, yes, it was for much of its existence an improved version of a military alliance. Think of it as a something of a cross between NATO and the EEC.

Look at the US Federal Budget through the 1920s. It had two major expenses which accounted for the vast majority of the budget: Defense expenditure, and debt servicing, the debt was almost invariably for other defense expenditures. The remainder was covered by foreign relations (Ambassadors, treaties, Indian affairs), and some other issues like National Parks. Only after FDR rammed the Commerce Clause down the Supreme Court's neck did the US really start getting involved in things which could be handled at the internal State level. That Congress has started doing it does not deny that it can still be done at the State level, much like EU nations still do most of their day to day business domestically. There's no "EU Healthcare system", "EU Education System", or "EU Pension system". Dublin, Berlin, Paris can take care of those things just like Sacramento, Albany or Springfield.

I don't see these comparisons with EU and/or Ireland as valid. Ireland is an independent, sovereign nation, as is the US. Texas and California are individual states within a single independent, sovereign nation.

Ireland's membership of the EU could be abandoned if a simple majority voted for an IrExit, jus as the Brits have done/are doing. Could California secede from the Union as easily? I don't think so!

eire4 · 13-11-2020 06:54PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

The EU isn't the US though. Irish citizens don't pay significant federal taxes directly to an EU government.

These heavily red states that you claim have 'historically proven' to be able to govern themselves couldn't survive without other states paying their bills. For example, NY puts in around $20 billion a year more than they take out while Kentucky takes out around $45 billion more than they put in. Despite those payments from other states they are still terribly run.

If states want no 'interference' from the federal government they can pay their own way but instead they want to have their cake and eat it.

That is the bottom line on this so called States rights issue isn't. They want it both ways being the ultimate socialists of the US in taking so much from the federal government while bleating about big government interference and states rights and socialism is bad. Also low income states like Alabama or Mississippi double down on taking from the federal government as their citizens pay much less income tax but yet they are big recipients of federal programs that benefit low income people.

extra gravy · 13-11-2020 07:26PM

https://twitter.com/PaulaReidCBS/status/1327316137428873216?s=19

Another rant incoming...

listermint · 13-11-2020 07:35PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's for them to decide. Ireland has still, I believe, one of the best education systems in the EU, why aren't the Irish dictating to the Italians, British, or Lithuanians how they should run their education systems? Maybe because it's their own business, and the Irish would equally resent the Europeans saying something like "You must put at least 2% into your defense budget like the rest of us and buy fighters so we can stop patrolling your airspace?"

If someone living in Idaho thinks that their healthcare standard is below that of California, if they want to, they can vote for people to implement it in Idaho. They don't need, nor want, Californians coming in and telling them what's good for them.

The intended purpose of the Federal Government is laid out in the Constitution (Article 8), and, yes, it was for much of its existence an improved version of a military alliance. Think of it as a something of a cross between NATO and the EEC.

Look at the US Federal Budget through the 1920s. It had two major expenses which accounted for the vast majority of the budget: Defense expenditure, and debt servicing, the debt was almost invariably for other defense expenditures. The remainder was covered by foreign relations (Ambassadors, treaties, Indian affairs), and some other issues like National Parks. Only after FDR rammed the Commerce Clause down the Supreme Court's neck did the US really start getting involved in things which could be handled at the internal State level. That Congress has started doing it does not deny that it can still be done at the State level, much like EU nations still do most of their day to day business domestically. There's no "EU Healthcare system", "EU Education System", or "EU Pension system". Dublin, Berlin, Paris can take care of those things just like Sacramento, Albany or Springfield.

For someone so well informed and you do add alot of information to discussions. You are way off base with your equivalence in this one.

You know well Ireland is a country in its own right , in a membership of customers and trade relationships. You know full well. This post reads a bit smug and is comparing Texas as its own country for someone in the armed forces it's a bizarre statement to make when your pay comes from federal money of the united states of America.

Inquitus · 13-11-2020 07:45PM

extra gravy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulaReidCBS/status/1327316137428873216?s=19

Another rant incoming...

Odds of a concession :pac:

Manic Moran · 13-11-2020 07:46PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I don't see these comparisons with EU and/or Ireland as valid. Ireland is an independent, sovereign nation, as is the US. Texas and California are individual states within a single independent, sovereign nation.

Ireland's membership of the EU could be abandoned if a simple majority voted for an IrExit, jus as the Brits have done/are doing. Could California secede from the Union as easily? I don't think so!

Ireland is little more sovereign than Texas is, with the one exception of foreign relations which are expressly forbidden to Texas. Both have their own Constitutions, Legislatures, legal systems, police forces, militaries, government departments, education systems, budget, tax revenues, etc, and both are subservient to a higher political body. Or do I miss the point of the Third Amendment to the Irish Constitution?

It is true that Ireland can leave the EU, and Texas can't, but as long as both states are part of the respective unions, the relative levels of autonomy and capability remain the comparable. The concept that Ireland may have a better healthcare system than Texas has very little to do with the fact that if they wanted to, they could have Eirexit.

These heavily red states that you claim have 'historically proven' to be able to govern themselves couldn't survive without other states paying their bills. For example, NY puts in around $20 billion a year more than they take out while Kentucky takes out around $45 billion more than they put in. Despite those payments from other states they are still terribly run.

I wonder how much of that is a result of the programs enacted after the 1930s. I also suspect a lot of it is infrastructure-related: Most of the infrastructure expenditure in places like Kansas is actually for the benefit of the other States as people and goods are just passing through.

I know this question isn't quite related but do you think Trumps antics have shown any potential weak points in the checks and balances that need to be addressed?

The current business after the election? No. Last I heard, Biden was still tipped to move into the White House in January and I've seen nothing to indicate he will be prevented from doing so.

Headshot · 13-11-2020 07:47PM

extra gravy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulaReidCBS/status/1327316137428873216?s=19

Another rant incoming...

Hopefully when he vomits his bs about electoral fraud every network switches him off

TomOnBoard · 13-11-2020 07:51PM

Inquitus wrote: »

Odds of a concession :pac:

I just got my hands on his remarks on the way to the teleprompter:

something...something...something... I won... Bigly...something...something...
lamestream media... crooked Hillary... Democrat fraud... I won... something...something...
...
...
...
...fraud...
...
...something else...
...
something similar...
...
...
I won...
...

Itssoeasy · 13-11-2020 08:23PM

NBC news have called North Carolina for Donald trump and joe Biden is the apparent winner in Georgia(presumably its apparent because of the recount) and the two Georgia senate races will go to run offs in January.

bewareofthedog · 13-11-2020 08:25PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

NBC news have called North Carolina for Donald trump and joe Biden is the apparent winner in Georgia(presumably its apparent because of the recount) and the two Georgia senate races will go to run offs in January.

So as it was as before.

Brian? · 13-11-2020 08:27PM

extra gravy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulaReidCBS/status/1327316137428873216?s=19

Another rant incoming...

Is it too much to hope for that he's coming out to concede and start a tidy and peaceful transition?

TomOnBoard · 13-11-2020 08:33PM

Brian? wrote: »

Is it too much to hope for that he's coming out to concede and start a tidy and peaceful transition?

Yes!

Agent Smith · 13-11-2020 08:43PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

NBC news have called North Carolina for Donald trump and joe Biden is the apparent winner in Georgia(presumably its apparent because of the recount) and the two Georgia senate races will go to run offs in January.

306-232

From 2016

Foxtrol · 13-11-2020 08:57PM

Agent Smith wrote: »

306-232

From 2016

Trump also said similar over and over again

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1327337864263331845?s=20

StringerBell · 13-11-2020 09:18PM

Infini wrote: »

That's pretty interesting, if the 3rd party candidate is a fake candidate would that not be illegal or something as they're there purely to manipulate the vote and are not a legitimate candidate?

What really gets to me is how a fake candidate gets any votes at all, let alone close on 3% of the total vote. That seems incredible in my mind.

HalloweenJack · 13-11-2020 09:28PM

That fake candidate story is similar to the plot of the Distinguished Gentleman. Eddie Murphy is a conman who runs for and gets elected to Congress because he has the same name as a recently deceased long-term congressman. Its set in Florida, too.

It wouldn't surprise if that was where they got the idea from.

VinLieger · 13-11-2020 09:30PM

StringerBell wrote: »

What really gets to me is how a fake candidate gets any votes at all, let alone close on 3% of the total vote. That seems incredible in my mind.

Because it worked exactly how it was intended, he had the same second name as the democratic candidate and people dont pay alot of attention when picking down ballot candidates.

Foxtrol · 13-11-2020 09:35PM

StringerBell wrote: »

What really gets to me is how a fake candidate gets any votes at all, let alone close on 3% of the total vote. That seems incredible in my mind.

US ballots can be a complete mess, where you vote from everyone from the US President to the local dog catcher on the same sheet of paper. The fake candidate in Florida had the same last name as a popular incumbent in a different race so could easily recongnise the surname and vote for the wrong candidate.

As for Minneapolis, the GOP backers apparently funded pro drug legalization candidates, taking votes from the dems (being pro-legalization themselves). Given the fact the GOP are anti-legalization, those votes thrown away to 3rd candidates really end up hurting the cause they think they are supporting.

BonnieSituation · 13-11-2020 09:54PM

StringerBell wrote: »

What really gets to me is how a fake candidate gets any votes at all, let alone close on 3% of the total vote. That seems incredible in my mind.

I'd say it was the surname. Just caused enough confusion to take in enough votes.

BonnieSituation · 13-11-2020 09:57PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

US ballots can be a complete mess, where you vote from everyone from the US President to the local dog catcher on the same sheet of paper. The fake candidate in Florida had the same last name as a popular incumbent in a different race so could easily recongnise the surname and vote for the wrong candidate.

As for Minneapolis, the GOP backers apparently funded pro drug legalization candidates, taking votes from the dems (being pro-legalization themselves). Given the fact the GOP are anti-legalization, those votes thrown away to 3rd candidates really end up hurting the cause they think they are supporting.

When you see how ballots have the same people on it twice, ie. Like how Biden and Harris were nominated by the "Working Families Party [sic]" you realise how much if a nightmare it is.

Infini · 13-11-2020 10:28PM

Agent Smith wrote: »

306-232

From 2016

"How the turntables"

Poetic Justice really that President Troll won 306 votes in 2016 and still lost the popular vote but Joe Biden wins the exact same amount AND the Popular vote.

Brian? · 13-11-2020 10:43PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUoTddld1S4&ab_channel=DavidPakmanShow

Trump just finished talking. He almost conceded at one point by accident.

Finished with "we'll see what happens in the future, who knows, who knows"

Brian? · 13-11-2020 10:46PM

Trump hasn't dyed his hair. It actually looks grey.

one armed dwarf · 13-11-2020 10:49PM

A weird thing to comment on but the grey looks good, maybe I'm just saying that cause that's the way I'm currently headed lol.

Brian? · 13-11-2020 11:00PM

one armed dwarf wrote: »

A weird thing to comment on but the grey looks good, maybe I'm just saying that cause that's the way I'm currently headed lol.

It definitely looks better than the weird colour it was before.

eire4 · 13-11-2020 11:03PM

Brian? wrote: »

Is it too much to hope for that he's coming out to concede and start a tidy and peaceful transition?

Yes way too much. There is no chance of either happening. Nor will he show up at Biden's inauguration either IMHO.

Donald Trump · 13-11-2020 11:04PM

one armed dwarf wrote: »

A weird thing to comment on but the grey looks good, maybe I'm just saying that cause that's the way I'm currently headed lol.

I find it goes well with the oul' tango'd skin

US Presidential Election 2020 Thread II - Judgement Day(s)

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