ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

endacl · 29-10-2020 04:30PM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I did, but it is just my opinion and I could be wrong to be fair.

G’wan away with that sort of comment. You’ll break the internet.

:mad:

machiavellianme · 29-10-2020 04:35PM

Treppen wrote: »

Have you ever taught kids before?

I'm a university lecturer, so yes!

blanch152 · 29-10-2020 04:42PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

So there was a use of IT and thus your idea of classes being like the 1980s with no tech is wrong. Grand, thanks. When you so easily disprove yourself there is really no need to take anything you say seriously, such is the level of your own hysteria.

Go away out of that. I never said there was no use of tech.

Many is not all. I would have thought a teacher would well understand that.

Smacruairi · 29-10-2020 04:51PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Go away out of that. I never said there was no use of tech.

Many is not all. I would have thought a teacher would well understand that.

Yes, many is not all. You said many don't use a laptop. You haven't provided any evidence of this. In fact that one piece of evidence you did use said that there was use of It for presentations etc.

So where is the many? Or did you just make that up?

"Many teachers don't or won't use a laptop to teach"

blanch152 · 29-10-2020 05:21PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yes, many is not all. You said many don't use a laptop. You haven't provided any evidence of this. In fact that one piece of evidence you did use said that there was use of It for presentations etc.

So where is the many? Or did you just make that up?

"Many teachers don't or won't use a laptop to teach"

The first report I clicked on said it was used by some, but that there needed to be greater uptake. Pretty much fits my narrative.

Wasn't going to waste more time on it.

dresden8 · 29-10-2020 05:26PM

Dav010 wrote: »

A hint of hyperbole there? Are you saying teachers were mugged? By whom?

All public servants were mugged by FF, the greens, FG and Labour.

No public sector union went to the government demanding pay cuts and lower pay for new members. There was coercion involved.

29-10-2020 05:28PM

dresden8 wrote: »

All public servants were mugged by FF, the greens, FG and Labour.

No public sector union went to the government demanding pay cuts and lower pay for new members. There was coercion involved.

There is usually coercion on both sides in negotiations, but agreement was reached. Would you have us believe that this latest ballot isn’t a form of coercion?

Smacruairi · 29-10-2020 05:34PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The first report I clicked on said it was used by some, but that there needed to be greater uptake. Pretty much fits my narrative.

Wasn't going to waste more time on it.

From your piece:
""In a number of lessons, ICT was used for teacherdesigned presentations and to show media clips that supported students’ learning well."

So you ignored the actual data and went with your own assumption. Greater scope does not mean there is none in use. But you know that,you've always known that, you just want to go on a rant.

Your assertion that many teachers don't use laptop does not stand up to the scrutiny of your own cherrypicked report! You weren't going to "waste time" as you couldn't find anything that fit your narrative. Give it up.

dresden8 · 29-10-2020 05:34PM

Dav010 wrote: »

There is usually coercion on both sides in negotiations, but agreement was reached. Would you have us believe that this latest ballot isn’t a form of coercion?

Of course it is. But don't be misrepresenting the issue and the history of how it came about.

How many of you would have supported a strike at the time to protect new entrants pay? Fnck all of you.

In fact there was a thread here called public servants I'm gonna run you over. Was allowed stand too.

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 05:36PM

s1ippy wrote: »

What a terrible analogy.

The first plumber wouldn't have the reputation so he'd have less business than the second and wouldn't be able to charge the same rates. Ideally in that line of work you'd try and be managing apprentices by that stage so you have less work to do yourself. Clearly you know as little about the private sector as you do about the public one, do you actually work yourself by any chance?

Well I deliberately used the detail of a person ringing up the plumbing company and different people being sent out each time by the company. You may have missed that bit of the reading comprehension. Not ringing up two different plumbers who might like to charge different rates. You call the company, trust them to send someone to do the job to the professional level and the amount it costs to do the exact same work to the same standard depends on who they send.

Similarly, you send your child to school. The school decides who gets to teach them. That is like the plumbing company deciding on whom to send out. The cost to the taxpayer depends on who they get to teach. That is you getting billed different amounts for the same service.

As for teachers moaning about how "difficult" it is - well everyone has different levels and different aptitudes. If you want to be an accountant and study it in college and then get your apprenticeship and decide midway through it that you don't like it or can't handle it then you move on and do something else.

29-10-2020 05:44PM

dresden8 wrote: »

Of course it is. But don't be misrepresenting the issue and the history of how it came about.

How many of you would have supported a strike at the time to protect new entrants pay? Fnck all of you.

In fact there was a thread here called public servants I'm gonna run you over. Was allowed stand too.

With all due respect, in a lot of sectors it is taken for granted that not all employees taken on to do the same jobs years apart are entitled to the same level of pay.

Smacruairi · 29-10-2020 05:46PM

Dav010 wrote: »

With all due respect, in a lot of sectors it is taken for granted that not all employees taken on to do the same jobs years apart are entitled to the same level of pay.

Yeah, and it's the same in teaching... Increments were changed and haven't been restored as promised

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 05:46PM

machiavellianme wrote: »

I'm a university lecturer, so yes!

Ive taught third level on an adjunct basis as well. More as a hobby in spare time than anything else. Have to come up with own materials and assignments and exams from scratch. Postdoc salaries are less than teachers make (I'm not a postdoc - I went into industry rather than trying to slog down that road).

How do you feel about teachers moaning about how tough they have it when they only have to read from the same book year after year on a fixed curriculum?

Smacruairi · 29-10-2020 05:48PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Have to come up with own materials and assignments and exams from scratch.

Can you explain what you meant by that one?

dresden8 · 29-10-2020 05:48PM

Dav010 wrote: »

With all due respect, in a lot of sectors it is taken for granted that not all employees taken on to do the same jobs years apart are entitled to the same level of pay.

Indeed. And it's a disgrace. Encourages companies to slide older employees out the door.

29-10-2020 05:51PM

dresden8 wrote: »

Indeed. And it's a disgrace. Encourages companies to slide older employees out the door.

The Unfair Dismissals Act is there to prevent that.

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 05:54PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Can you explain what you meant by that one?

I assume you went to university - no?

The vast majority of courses do not follow a textbook. Maybe the area you studied did. Not in hard sciences and engineering. Some might have a recommended text but most lecturers make their own notes and do their own course

I had a maths lecturer when I was an undergrad who never even used notes. Statistical mechanics - stuff like thermodynamics and Bose-Einstein condensation etc. The guy came in every day with a box of chalk and wrote equations for 50 minutes then came back the next time and picked up where he left off. No notes or textbook. If you wanted to look up the stuff you could find bits on different topics in different books.

I also went to school of course. We had a maths textbook - which was probably the textbook for every student in the country. Start on chapter one. Work through that and then go to chapter 2 etc.

Iscreamkone · 29-10-2020 05:55PM

Teachers sitting around staff rooms on their free classes thinking revolutionary thoughts.
You haven't convinced me that you deserve your demands.
Now you have a choice - go all in and strike, or back off because you realise you are going to lose big time on this one.
Your choice - best of luck!

Bananaleaf · 29-10-2020 05:56PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Some might have a recommended text but most lecturers make their own notes and do their own course

You actually have no clue about what second level teaching is these days

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 05:57PM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

You actually have no clue about what second level teaching is these days

I'm sure it is very difficult. Especially since Mao Leo banned books. Cultural revolution Mk II

Kind of a silly response you gave to the statement "Some might have a recommended text but most lecturers make their own notes and do their own course". Are you trying to dispute or disprove that statement? Lecturers don't do that?

Kivaro · 29-10-2020 06:04PM

If the whole issue was just Covid-related, then they could get expect some public support. But by lumping "more money" into the mix, the vast majority of the public will find it very distasteful.

If ASTI and their members proceed with this strike, it will be a despicable action and it can be assured that the country will never forget it.

Bananaleaf · 29-10-2020 06:05PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm sure it is very difficult. Especially since Mao Leo banned books. Cultural revolution Mk II

Kind of a silly response you gave to the statement "Some might have a recommended text but most lecturers make their own notes and do their own course". Are you trying to dispute or disprove that statement? Lecturers don't do that?

No, I am not trying to disprove that. I don't make judgements on the difficulty or easiness of jobs that I have never done.

My response was based on your suggestion that teachers don't create their own resources. That is inaccurate and I dispute that part of your post 100%

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 06:06PM

Kivaro wrote: »

If the whole issue was just Covid-related, then they could get expect some public support. But by lumping "more money" into the mix, the vast majority of the public will find it very distasteful.

If ASTI and their members proceed with this strike, it will be a despicable action and it can be assured that the country will never forget it.

If they were smart, they might have organised an initial "symbolic strike" this week when the schools are off. Teachers are not working today but are still getting paid. They could have went on "official strike" today, waived that day's payment, and used it to make a statement....they'd get the money back later anyway normally.

Each could have done an hour with signs outside their school on a picket line. Socially distanced of course!

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 06:12PM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

No, I am not trying to disprove that. I don't make judgements on the difficulty or easiness of jobs that I have never done.

My response was based on your suggestion that teachers don't create their own resources. That is inaccurate and I dispute that part of your post 100%

It seems your response was based on something you imagined that I wrote.

Answer me these:
1) Do you have a fixed curriculum which is determined for you (obviously you know what I mean here - that it does not change year-to-year and that you personally don't have to design or update it)
2) Do you follow the same textbook for that curriculum each year (again realistically speaking....saying it changed 15 years ago and might change in another 5 is not what I mean)

Or do you teach a subject for which there is no curriculum textbook?

Smacruairi · 29-10-2020 06:16PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

If they were smart, they might have organised an initial "symbolic strike" this week when the schools are off. Teachers are not working today but are still getting paid. They could have went on "official strike" today, waived that day's payment, and used it to make a statement....they'd get the money back later anyway normally.

Each could have done an hour with signs outside their school on a picket line. Socially distanced of course!

Genuine question, do you think it would have made a blind bit of difference? Unions and other groups have been in talks for 3 months now. Nothing has changed. How would a symbolic strike day, which impacts on no one, which actually goes against the level 5 lockdown guidelines, improve any conditions for students and teachers?

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 06:19PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Genuine question, do you think it would have made a blind bit of difference? Unions and other groups have been in talks for 3 months now. Nothing has changed. How would a symbolic strike day, which impacts on no one, which actually goes against the level 5 lockdown guidelines, improve any conditions for students and teachers?

Why would standing outside your local school with a placard have an impact on Thursday next week when it would have no impact today? Because if teachers do go on strike, that will happen. (Especially now that with travel restrictions there won't be as many risking jaunts up the north for shopping

)

The placards are to advertise your dispute no? And you can do that today. If you wanted to get the public behind you, I'd have done the first one today if I was running that union.

Smacruairi · 29-10-2020 06:24PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Why would standing outside your local school with a placard have an impact on Thursday next week when it would have no impact today? Because if teachers do go on strike, that will happen. (Especially now that with travel restrictions there won't be as many risking jaunts up the north for shopping )

The placards are to advertise your dispute no? And you can do that today. If you wanted to get the public behind you, I'd have done the first one today if I was running that union.

Well everyone knows about the dispute. It made national Airways and this thread has thousands of interactions within the space of 24 hours. Being physically present to hold a placard makes little sense to be honest. Guiding a national discussion around safety standards and acceptable levels of risk for students, and remote platforms for those at high risk seems a far better use of time than standing outside a building no one is actually going to go to.

I've no idea what you are on about with regards to the North to be honest.

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 06:27PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well everyone knows about the dispute. It made national Airways and this thread has thousands of interactions within the space of 24 hours. Being physically present to hold a placard makes little sense to be honest. Guiding a national discussion around safety standards and acceptable levels of risk for students, and remote platforms for those at high risk seems a far better use of time than standing outside a building no one is actually going to go to.

I've no idea what you are on about with regards to the North to be honest.

The North reference was a joke. I don't remember the exact time, but around 10-12 years ago there was a big hullabaloo about strikes and teachers protesting for some very important reason..........and then the day of the strike there was very few on the picket line ... but there were reports (on TV etc.) about all the Asda's or whatever it was, with carparks full of ROI cars on that mid-week morning

Smacruairi · 29-10-2020 06:32PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

The North reference was a joke. I don't remember the exact time, but around 10-12 years ago there was a big hullabaloo about strikes and teachers protesting for some very important reason..........and then the day of the strike there was very few on the picket line ... but there were reports (on TV etc.) about all the Asda's or whatever it was, with carparks full of ROI cars on that mid-week morning

Oh right.seems relevant to a discussion about safety protocols for schools and minimising risks..

Meanwhile

https://twitter.com/emma_okelly/status/1321863447840215040?s=20

Bananaleaf · 29-10-2020 07:23PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

It seems your response was based on something you imagined that I wrote.

Answer me these:
1) Do you have a fixed curriculum which is determined for you (obviously you know what I mean here - that it does not change year-to-year and that you personally don't have to design or update it)
2) Do you follow the same textbook for that curriculum each year (again realistically speaking....saying it changed 15 years ago and might change in another 5 is not what I mean)

Or do you teach a subject for which there is no curriculum textbook?

You said that teachers "only have to read from the same book year after year" Whether you meant it or not, that suggests that we don't create our own resources.

Your questions.... see this is the same problem I pointed out earlier ... second level teaching can be as much or as little work as you want it to be. The short (and broad) answer to your questions are 1) Yes and 2) Yes. However, it really isnt as easy as that. If you are not interested in why, you can stop reading here.

1. I teach English and MFL. But I am currently working on designing a short course for Junior Cycle. I design the course template and decide on the curriculum for this. I'm not paid to do this and am choosing to do it in my own spare time. I'm not even sure if I'll ever get to teach it due to timetable issues. I don't mind though, because I am enjoying creating it. I am also working on an EAL immersive programme that myself and 3 other colleagues are doing together. Finally, I've designed the level 2 programme for MFL for students in my school who might not be able to participate in a mainstream class but might like the opportunity to study a language. I might not be creating content to third level standard, but it still takes time. However, as I said before, I have chosen to take this on. I'd get paid just the same if I didn't.

2. Again, my choice, but when it comes to MFL, I don't use the book that much as I prefer to make my own content. The bones of my resources can be reused, but every year the content has to be somewhat edited, always to make it more relevant to the group of students sitting in front of me and the direction our learning has been going. I hate to use these awful HDip terms, but correct and worthwhile scaffolding of learning can only happen when the content is personalised. You can't get that from a book. When it comes to English, the texts do change year on year in fairness. There is some amount of rotation (eg Shakespeare at senior cycle is always one of 4 or am I leaving one out??) And again, when it comes to comparative study I will get paid the same if I do the same texts with my 5th years as I did with my 6th years, but if they are different ability levels I wouldn't. My choice, I know.

Just on the text books thing .... when I went to uni, I always bought my books second hand off someone who had used them in the years before me and I always sold them on to someone coming in below me, so textbooks did have a long enough lifespan in uni too from what I remember

ASTI members vote for industrial action over Covid issues

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