Rival charities set up new super charity scam

touts · 22-09-2020 8:14am #1

Listening to Morning Ireland I was disappointed but not really surprised to see what was referred to as six "rival charities" have come together to form yet another charity (a super charity of sorts) to encourage Irish people to donate more money to them. The sense of entitlement dripping off the CEO being interviewed was startling. She saw nothing wrong with setting up another charity and all the associated costs and wages to do the work that the six founding "rival" charities all currently claimed to be doing. The charity industry in Ireland is completely out of control.

Here's an idea. Instead of setting up yet another charity with yet another CEO and yet more admin staff how about one of the existing charities take over the other five. That way they can get rid of five sets of CEOs (who are usually pulling in €200k+ a year each for these sizes of charity) and five sets of admin staff. That will safe millions and will be far more than this new super charity scam will bring in.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/six-irish-charities-form-alliance-to-respond-to-covid-19-in-vulnerable-communities-1.4360923?mode=amp&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

manonboard · 22-09-2020 8:16am

Your solution though, results in a super charity?

It would provide no alternatives to the public, likely become more corrupt, and also force alot of people who work to help others out of a job?

Rodney Bathgate · 22-09-2020 8:20am

Just what we need. More charities.

Allinall · 22-09-2020 8:21am

Where’s the scam?

sydthebeat · 22-09-2020 8:25am

I see nothing in that article to back up the OPs assertion that a new charity is to be set up with a new CEO and new admin staff??

Is this a case of 1 + 1 = 11

Pronto63 · 22-09-2020 8:37am

It might exist, I don’t know, but there should be a website which lists:

1. CEO salary
2. Salary of top 10 highest paid staff - a total will do here.
3. Amount of govt funding
4. Amount of public donations
5. % of non charitable spend - admin, rent, wages, advertising, etc.

All charity promotions and advertising should then contain the wording “check out our stats on charitystats.ie”

sunshinew · 22-09-2020 8:48am

Pronto63 wrote: »

It might exist, I don’t know, but there should be a website which lists:

1. CEO salary
2. Salary of top 10 highest paid staff - a total will do here.
3. Amount of govt funding
4. Amount of public donations
5. % of non charitable spend - admin, rent, wages, advertising, etc.

All charity promotions and advertising should then contain the wording “check out our stats on charitystats.ie”

It does exist. In order to be recognised as a charity and get charity status, each charity has to produce and publish an annual report that outlines all their financials, employee number etc. along with complying to charity code of governance. It's then put on the charity regulator website where you can search every charity on there. The majority of the big ones keep all costs, staff, admin etc, below 15% of spend and it's easy enough to find out what each CEO is paid.
I do agree that there is far too much crossover in charity purposes and the government outsources a large part of their remit to charities.

Peregrinus · 22-09-2020 8:51am

sydthebeat wrote: »

I see nothing in that article to back up the OPs assertion that a new charity is to be set up with a new CEO and new admin staff??

Is this a case of 1 + 1 = 11

This. The OP is fantasising in a particularly malicious way. The linked articles doesn't say that the six charities are setting up a seventh charity, with or without a separate CEO and staff; it says they are allying with one another for a joint Covid-related programme. It names the chairperson of the alliance; she is Helen Keogh, who is already the CEO of one of the six existing charities, which doesn't really bear out the OP's allegation that a new CEO and staff are being hired.

Pronto63 · 22-09-2020 9:05am

sunshinew wrote: »

It does exist. In order to be recognised as a charity and get charity status, each charity has to produce and publish an annual report that outlines all their financials, employee number etc. along with complying to charity code of governance. It's then put on the charity regulator website where you can search every charity on there. The majority of the big ones keep all costs, staff, admin etc, below 15% of spend and it's easy enough to find out what each CEO is paid.
I do agree that there is far too much crossover in charity purposes and the government outsources a large part of their remit to charities.

What I had in mind was a one stop shop where you effectively had a league table of charities.
Also having it well publicised so that people don’t have to go looking/searching for the info.

EmmetSpiceland · 22-09-2020 9:16am

Allinall wrote: »

Where’s the scam?

The, selfish, misers on this site view “charity” as something to be reviled and mocked. Especially targeting the CEO salaries, as if anyone with the skills and “expertise” to bring in big money would be taking the job for a paltry 50k a year.

There’s a simple solution for those who don’t want to help others out by throwing a few quid at them, keep the lock on your wallet locked. There’s no need to go on, and on, about it being a “scam” and something others shouldn’t do.

It’s the same with tipping in a bloody restaurant. Easier to get blood from a stone with some people. You can’t take it with you, you know?

sunshinew · 22-09-2020 9:17am

Pronto63 wrote: »

What I had in mind was a one stop shop where you effectively had a league table of charities.
Also having it well publicised so that people don’t have to go looking/searching for the info.

It is a one stop shop. You can type in cancer and all the cancer charities pop up and you can go in and see their financial reports. Each charity has to comply with the code of transparency and publish their accounts. It outlines how many employees are in each wage bracket.
They won't be registered as a charity if they don't comply with the rules above of the charity regulator which outlines all the boundaries they need to work under.
I don't know what you mean "league table" of charities as you can't compare the Irish cancer society with Cats Aid or Focus Ireland. Wildly different remits, costs, sizes, levels of expertise required in staff.

22-09-2020 9:24am

Pronto63 wrote: »

It might exist, I don’t know, but there should be a website which lists:

1. CEO salary
2. Salary of top 10 highest paid staff - a total will do here.
3. Amount of govt funding
4. Amount of public donations
5. % of non charitable spend - admin, rent, wages, advertising, etc.

All charity promotions and advertising should then contain the wording “check out our stats on charitystats.ie”

Here’s one to get you started. https://www.focusireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Signed-Focus-Ireland-consolidated-Financial-statements-31-Dec-2016.pdf

Just google financial statements of any charity. They make depressing reading!

whisky_galore · 22-09-2020 9:31am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

The, selfish, misers on this site view “charity” as something to be reviled and mocked. Especially targeting the CEO salaries, as if anyone with the skills and “expertise” to bring in big money would be taking the job for a paltry 50k a year.

There’s a simple solution for those who don’t want to help others out by throwing a few quid at them, keep the lock on your wallet locked. There’s no need to go on, and on, about it being a “scam” and something others shouldn’t do.

It’s the same with tipping in a bloody restaurant. Easier to get blood from a stone with some people. You can’t take it with you, you know?

The bloated "charadee" sector has far too much duplication and crossover of causes and govt are only too happy to get off the hook of their societal obligations, you know...looking after people like a normal country.
Any old gob****e can set up a charity, there doesn't appear to be any limit to the numbers that operate.

We've been soft touches here for years, we'll fling money at something because it's "for charity" without asking where the money goes or how it's spent although that's changing. Some charities have abused the public generosity in the recent past and people are beginning to think twice before donating.

sunshinew · 22-09-2020 9:36am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here’s one to get you started. https://www.focusireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Signed-Focus-Ireland-consolidated-Financial-statements-31-Dec-2016.pdf

Just google financial statements of any charity. They make depressing reading!

Why depressing?

blanch152 · 22-09-2020 9:56am

manonboard wrote: »

Your solution though, results in a super charity?

It would provide no alternatives to the public, likely become more corrupt, and also force alot of people who work to help others out of a job?

Are you suggesting that the charities are not corrupt already?

blanch152 · 22-09-2020 9:58am

sunshinew wrote: »

It does exist. In order to be recognised as a charity and get charity status, each charity has to produce and publish an annual report that outlines all their financials, employee number etc. along with complying to charity code of governance. It's then put on the charity regulator website where you can search every charity on there. The majority of the big ones keep all costs, staff, admin etc, below 15% of spend and it's easy enough to find out what each CEO is paid.
I do agree that there is far too much crossover in charity purposes and the government outsources a large part of their remit to charities.

I wouldn't say it is easy enough, try looking on any of their websites for their financial information, it is hidden away.

suicide_circus · 22-09-2020 10:02am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

The, selfish, misers on this site view “charity” as something to be reviled and mocked. Especially targeting the CEO salaries, as if anyone with the skills and “expertise” to bring in big money would be taking the job for a paltry 50k a year.

There’s a simple solution for those who don’t want to help others out by throwing a few quid at them, keep the lock on your wallet locked. There’s no need to go on, and on, about it being a “scam” and something others shouldn’t do.

It’s the same with tipping in a bloody restaurant. Easier to get blood from a stone with some people. You can’t take it with you, you know?

It's perhaps not quite a scam but the industry is certainly unbelievably bloated with a massive amount of duplication as evidenced by this super alliance of 6 charities which ostensibly all do pretty much the same thing. This duplication means more running costs, staffing, advertising etc and less money going to those in need. Although if this super alliance becomes one permanent entity with the efficiencies that entails it would be a step in the right direction.

Rodney Bathgate · 22-09-2020 10:10am

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's perhaps not quite a scam but the industry is certainly unbelievably bloated with a massive amount of duplication as evidenced by this super alliance of 6 charities which ostensibly all do pretty much the same thing. This duplication means more running costs, staffing, advertising etc and less money going to those in need. Although if this super alliance becomes one permanent entity with the efficiencies that entails it would be a step in the right direction.

Wouldn’t be surprised if some of the more ‘woke’ posters in this thread are in well paid charity jobs and doing nothing in return for a nice pay cheque. Charity is a business. Posters who gets their knickers in a twist to ‘defend’ and ‘deflect’ this industry are best ignored.

Peregrinus · 22-09-2020 10:12am

OSI wrote: »

I'd love to see a few examples of ones that do.

Few examples that don't

Pieta House:
2018
Income ~€11,100,000
Staff costs ~€7,600,000
Admin ~€1,000,000

Peter McVerry Trust
2018
Income ~€39,000,000
Staff costs ~€20,500,000
Property Costs ~€3,000,000

Focus Ireland
2018
Income ~€29,000,000
Staff costs ~€18,000,000
Admin ~€1,000,000
Property Costs ~€4,800,000

But the "staff costs" are the staff who provide services to the clients of the charity.

Pieta House, for example, primarily provides counselling. You can't do that without counsellors. What do you imagine Pieta House would spend its money on, if not employing counsellors to provide counselling to clients in need of counselling who come to Pieta House because providing counselling is what Pieta House does? Do you have a viable business plan for Pieta House that doesn't involve counsellors? I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.

And you could say similar things about the other charities you mention. Charities that actually provide services that help people need staff to provide th services. A lot of their expenditure will be staff costs. That's not an indication of inefficiency or worse.

suicide_circus · 22-09-2020 10:16am

The Irish charity industry has an annual income of €14.5 billion and employs 189,000 people. Wow.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-charities-4145144-Jul2018/#:~:text=REGISTERED%20IRISH%20CHARITIES%20have%20an,impact%20of%20charities%20in%20Ireland.

To put that in perspective, the Irish hospitality sector is worth €7.6bn and employs 180,000 people.

ohnonotgmail · 22-09-2020 10:27am

OSI wrote: »

I'd love to see a few examples of ones that do.

Few examples that don't

Pieta House:
2018
Income ~€11,100,000
Staff costs ~€7,600,000
Admin ~€1,000,000

Peter McVerry Trust
2018
Income ~€39,000,000
Staff costs ~€20,500,000
Property Costs ~€3,000,000

Focus Ireland
2018
Income ~€29,000,000
Staff costs ~€18,000,000
Admin ~€1,000,000
Property Costs ~€4,800,000

Housing charities spending money on property? Outrageous.

Rodney Bathgate · 22-09-2020 10:30am

A former politician from my constituency was appointed CEO of a charity at age 38.

Jobs for the boys (or girls in this case).

crossman47 · 22-09-2020 10:35am

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

A former politician from my constituency was appointed CEO of a charity at age 38.

Jobs for the boys (or girls in this case).

If he/she was good enough to do the job well, whats the problem?

Mango Joe · 22-09-2020 10:35am

Charities need to be regulated, right now too many of them seem to think that charity starts at home and pay themselves and 17 of their mates in excess of €100k+ to faff around spending money that well-intended people had mistakenly thought was going to good causes.

Cap the wages and these ignorant, greedy, amoral rats will scatter.

Allinall · 22-09-2020 10:36am

Mango Joe wrote: »

Charities need to be regulated, right now too many of them seem to think that charity starts at home and pay themselves and 17 of their mates in excess of €100k+ to faff around spending money that well-intended people had mistakenly thought was going to good causes.

Cap the wages and these ignorant, greedy, amoral rats will scatter.

Which particular charities do that?

crossman47 · 22-09-2020 10:43am

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Wouldn’t be surprised if some of the more ‘woke’ posters in this thread are in well paid charity jobs and doing nothing in return for a nice pay cheque. Charity is a business. Posters who gets their knickers in a twist to ‘defend’ and ‘deflect’ this industry are best ignored.

That is rubbish. I declare an interest. I am one of many volunteers with Vincent De Paul. It is run by a board of volunteers but does need paid staff. These include an accountant (to ensure money is properly handled), admin staff to oversee Garda clearance (required for thousands of volunteers across the country), staff to deal with phone calls from people seeking help (and these are supplemented by volunteers), etc.

Volunteers themselves contribute on a weekly basis to pay for routine expenses (letters, phone calls, etc) and there are no expenses paid to those of us who give our time and money to help the needy. Having said all that, I do wish some duplication of charities was ended - suicide ones in particular seem to have multiplied.

Peregrinus · 22-09-2020 10:43am

OSI wrote: »

That's their own premises costs, not housing.

"Their own premises" includes the premises in which they house clients.

sunshinew · 22-09-2020 10:47am

OSI wrote: »

I'd love to see a few examples of ones that do.

Few examples that don't

Pieta House:
2018
Income ~€11,100,000
Staff costs ~€7,600,000
Admin ~€1,000,000

Peter McVerry Trust
2018
Income ~€39,000,000
Staff costs ~€20,500,000
Property Costs ~€3,000,000

Focus Ireland
2018
Income ~€29,000,000
Staff costs ~€18,000,000
Admin ~€1,000,000
Property Costs ~€4,800,000

Yes, I meant staff costs on admin of running the charity - fundraising staff, marketing spend for donations etc...not on staff providing the actual service to the service users. What do you think charities spend the money on!
On one hand people want charities to be run by volunteers, on the other they want them to comply with GDPR, have all their staff trained and vetted, provide audited accounts.... They are a business like any other.
I'd like the end of life nurse/counsellor in a hospice to actually be trained to provide that service and paid a fair wage rather than "volunteer". Same with a counsellor I'd ring if I was feeling suicidal. I'd like the housing for homeless people to be properly maintained and pass health and safety/fire regulations.
Ideally I'd like to live in a world where charities don't need to exist but that's not going to happen any time soon.

ohnonotgmail · 22-09-2020 10:47am

OSI wrote: »

That's their own premises costs, not housing.

and what are those premises used for? oh yeah, housing people.

Spanish Eyes · 22-09-2020 10:53am

I note that the six charities coming together are involved with international aidto developing poorer countries.

Can they not tap into the €750 odd million pa the taxpayer provides for International aid? Just wondered.

Peregrinus · 22-09-2020 10:55am

OSI wrote: »

I'm very aware of what and how Pieta house operate.

By their own numbers Pieta House provided 57,530 hours of counselling in 2018. At a staff cost of 7.6 Million that's equal to over €132 per hour of counselling. They pay their Counsellors in the region of €25 an hour (those that they do pay), so where does the the other €107 go?

Staff costs includes more than just pay, counsellors may have to be paid for all their time devoted to the job and not just for the counselling hours, and there will be employees other than the counsellors.

My point is that a charity whose mission is mainly providing services will always spend a significant part of its budget on staff. This isn't evidence that the charity is inefficient. I think sunshinenew is wrong to say that most charities will keep staff costs below 15%, but I also don't think we should expect that they will. For many charities, staff costs ought to be substantially higher than that.

PS: Where are you getting the €25/hr figure from? I'm not doubting you; I'm just curious.

Rival charities set up new super charity scam

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