Is the Leaving Certificate more of a memory test than intelligence or aptitude?

Earthhorse · 10-09-2020 09:46AM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Excluding the 2 languages i did in LC i only had practical work in two other subjects.

In fairness, that is half of your subjects. Why would you exclude the languages in your count?

Smacruairi wrote: »

My silver bullet answer that is in no way thought out is tu have each college have their own entrance exams separate from normal schooling. They have tarnished secondary school for too long.

There used to be a Matriculation Exam but it was scrapped. I'm not sure. I guess people felt it was just a repeat of the Leaving.

In fact a quick Google reveals that Trinity still have one but only for Biblical Studies and Geology. :eek:

kowloonkev · 10-09-2020 10:16AM

batman75 wrote: »

My recollection was that the LC was a recall test than a true measure of intelligence or aptitude. I would be more in favour of continual assessment which measures a student's ability to show comprehension rather than regurgitation. Yes memory recall has merit but ultimately you want someone to demonstrate that they understand the syllabus and can demonstrate that understanding in a clear logical fashion.

In my experience it is generally the students who have the best comprehension that can regurgitate the information on exam day.

I think the exam is not that bad in its current format. Kids of that age haven't fully developed and it can be a dangerous game giving them notions that their opinions are important (see USA). A lot of the stuff they're not interested in will be memorized and forgotten. What they are interested in will be remembered. They have plenty of choices too.

10-09-2020 10:44AM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its not the silver bullet but there needs to be a change from 100% exams.
Teachers should be involved along with external examiners overseeing whats being graded.
Id loved to have had more continous assessment even if it was once a month rather than all of the grades based on 2-3 hours of an exam in June.
Excluding the 2 languages i did in LC i only had practical work in two other subjects.
Continuous assessments works very well in majority of third level courses so why shouldnt it work in second level?

We could adopt a European system of the final year having 3 assessments maybe?

Or a hybrid exam / continuous system where some of your mark is from continues ?

ilovemuffin · 10-09-2020 01:10PM

From my experience, on my English honors exam, I had to have a handful of quotes tailor made for the question, and needed rote memory to write them down. Instead of asking my opinions on Shakespeare, which is a dubious character and many people have said Shakespeare was a collective of different writers all writing under the same pseudonym. I had loads to write about that, and about how anonymous writing is sometimes the best writing, and how 'people' like Banksy are known to 'hire' out others to do their stunts on their behalf. Again: a collective not a person. What annoys me is we have to have intimate knowledge of writers /We Don't Like/ and have to pretend we are some superfan who can write a great answer.

landofthetree · 10-09-2020 01:17PM

Maths needs an certain level of aptitude.

We did an entrance exam for secondary schools. Numercy and verbal reasoning.

I'd say everyone who did higher level maths(around 30%) scored well at numercy in the entrance exam.

Also if you compared how kids did in the entrance exam it was broadly in line with the LC results. Obviously a few smart kids fell away but I suspect the few that did had other issues.

10-09-2020 01:26PM

Memory and intelligence are intertwined, fluid intelligence is the on-the-go type of practical application of smarts that helps one draw on logic, intuition, memory and experience to solve problems or critically think new things through, and crystallized intelligence draws on one's knowledge of facts, procedures and tactics to deal with more static things. Fluid intelligence might help you wire up a socket for the first time having never seen how it's done, crystallized intelligence will help you wire up a socket by drawing your memory of a wiring diagram. They're intertwined, we use aspects of both all the time.

It's easy to dismiss memory and it's link with intelligence by denigrating rote learning, but it's the fluid intelligence that makes static knowledge come to life in a relatable or interesting way by drawing on other aspects of the same subject and teasing them out so that what seems like rote learning is actually the result of drawing on wider ability.

Of the particularly clever people I've known, they've generally done well in exams. Of the more average people I've known, they tend to have been average performers in exams. Exams aren't an absolute marker of intelligence, but they can point in that direction.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants · 10-09-2020 04:46PM

Our educational system is blighted by rote learning, especially at second level. People are learning things often with little or no understanding of what they're learning.

Our physics lecturer taught us a hard lesson in our first year of college. She gave us a small class based exam (open book) worth a mere 5% of the overall year result.

Some people thought they were the bee's knees spewing out information from the book expecting 100%, but that didn't cut it. She was a wonderful lecturer who drummed into us the difference between knowledge and understanding.

I have often interviewed people for roles in the company I work for along with supervisors and HR. On one occasion I was tasked with asking the technical questions.

I'd ask candidates to tell what such and such is or explain X or y. They'd go into an almost trance like robotic state belching out information with a blank expression on their face.

I'd stop them and ask them and probe them further to explain what they've blurted out. Most struggle at this point.

Ipso · 10-09-2020 05:13PM

landofthetree wrote: »

Maths needs an certain level of aptitude.

We did an entrance exam for secondary schools. Numercy and verbal reasoning.

I'd say everyone who did higher level maths(around 30%) scored well at numercy in the entrance exam.

Also if you compared how kids did in the entrance exam it was broadly in line with the LC results. Obviously a few smart kids fell away but I suspect the few that did had other issues.

There's only so much you can get away with via memory alone, you need to understand the concepts to apply them correctly, especially if something appears in a format that you're not used to.

Ipso · 10-09-2020 05:14PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

We could adopt a European system of the final year having 3 assessments maybe?

Or a hybrid exam / continuous system where some of your mark is from continues ?

I would absolutely guarantee you'd have the parents of wasters complaining that their kids weren't given a fair shot.

10-09-2020 06:56PM

Ipso wrote: »

I would absolutely guarantee you'd have the parents of wasters complaining that their kids weren't given a fair shot.

Naturally but then there's people on this thread that would back them it seems

kowloonkev · 11-09-2020 04:09AM

ilovemuffin wrote: »

From my experience, on my English honors exam, I had to have a handful of quotes tailor made for the question, and needed rote memory to write them down. Instead of asking my opinions on Shakespeare, which is a dubious character and many people have said Shakespeare was a collective of different writers all writing under the same pseudonym. I had loads to write about that, and about how anonymous writing is sometimes the best writing, and how 'people' like Banksy are known to 'hire' out others to do their stunts on their behalf. Again: a collective not a person. What annoys me is we have to have intimate knowledge of writers /We Don't Like/ and have to pretend we are some superfan who can write a great answer.

I don't really think the exam ought to be welcoming conspiracy theories. That's a slippery slope if ever there was one and hardly encourages critical thinking. I do agree that English in particular is a very poorly tested subject. It is an art being tested like a STEM subject.

A lot of kids have a flair for writing and can produce really inventive and imaginative pieces over the course of two years that in the end is a big jerk off, and it's a lot harder for creative types to get the juices flowing in the pressure cooker of the exam environment.

11-09-2020 05:25PM

The course with the defined career options have seen the biggest rise in point year.

Is the Leaving Certificate more of a memory test than intelligence or aptitude?

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