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How do you convince people god exists?

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    #722
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Tbh I think the whole atheist trend that is happening now will turn out to be just a phase we go through..

    So atheists existing for thousands of years is a "trend" now
    :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Given the sheer lack of proof for a god, the need for some people to believe in one really shows how scared they are of the unknown. They'd rather create something to answer the questions then search out the answers via research.


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    #723
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So atheists existing for thousands of years is a "trend" now
    :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Given the sheer lack of proof for a god, the need for some people to believe in one really shows how scared they are of the unknown. They'd rather create something to answer the questions then search out the answers via research.

    Are you suggesting that religious people are afraid of the unknown ?

    Some people are so passionate about their cause they'll die and kill without any fear before hand.
    Obviously there's no proof they'll be remorseful after dying for a cause.

    So you're wrong about people fearing the unknown, I'd be more fearful of driving on the M50 and getting somewhere on time rather than the unknown.

    Scientists also create something to answer questions, such as the big bang theory or the fact that rainbow trout and rud perch and pike won't survive in brackish or salt water and I've caught them all in salt water.

    We're in the 21st century and were only at the tip of the iceberg where research is concerned.

    Take roundup and other chemicals, scientific research suggested that it's safe yet the damage to ourselves and our biosynthesis is horrific.

    Would you drink soy milk and eat cereal because it's on the shelf ?

    I certainly wouldn't.


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    #724
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,728 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    nthclare wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that religious people are afraid of the unknown ?

    Many religions rely heavily on fear in one form or another to keep their believers in line. e.g. "it put the fear of God into him" or "She's a good God fearing woman". Religions also tend to substitute gods for the unknown, or gaps in our knowledge. e.g "What's that big glowing ball of fire in the sky? It's God (Ra)" or "How was the Earth created? God made it", etc...

    Many people hate to admit ignorance, yet we are all ignorant of very many things. To my mind, rather than admit ignorance, religion substitutes fantasy in such a way as to build its own power base. Preying on people's natural fears, e.g. fear of death, is a very effective way of doing this.


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    #725
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    smacl wrote: »
    Many religions rely heavily on fear in one form or another to keep their believers in line.

    When I didn't believe there was no God to fear, obviously.

    Now that I do believe, there is no fear. I'm a child of God and it matters not a fig what I do or what I don't do, a child of God I will always be. I don't recall precisely how many times Jesus said "fear not" but it was alot.

    But I take your point. Many religions do rely on fear to keep their adherents in line. But so what, since not all do?

    As for inserting God in the gap?

    What meaning has your life? Your religion relies not on fear, but on meaningless to answer that question. Meaningless, as in whatever you yourself decides is meaningful .. is.. er.. meaningful.

    You replace the meaning provided by the option "God" with the meaning provided by the option "yourself". Making you god.


    Pretty much the same thing that Adam was up to.


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    #726
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Given the sheer lack of proof for a god

    There is no proof that you need a proof to know something.


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    #727
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,311 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    When I didn't believe there was no God to fear, obviously.

    Now that I do believe, there is no fear. I'm a child of God and it matters not a fig what I do or what I don't do, a child of God I will always be. I don't recall precisely how many times Jesus said "fear not" but it was alot.

    But I take your point. Many religions do rely on fear to keep their adherents in line. But so what, since not all do?

    As for inserting God in the gap?

    What meaning has your life? Your religion relies not on fear, but on meaningless to answer that question. Meaningless, as in whatever you yourself decides is meaningful .. is.. er.. meaningful.

    You replace the meaning provided by the option "God" with the meaning provided by the option "yourself". Making you god.


    Pretty much the same thing that Adam was up to.

    Would you not fear that people you've known personally may live in eternal damnation?

    Would you not fear you might not pass the pearly gates test?

    There is noting to fear if you believe when you do die, that's it. You won't be around to fear anything then.


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    #728
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,120 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    There is no proof that you need a proof to know something.

    Can you prove that?


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    #729
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    How do you in history?


    And how do you do it now?

    With all the evidence etc.

    With a big stick.


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    #730
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    smacl wrote: »
    Many religions rely heavily on fear in one form or another to keep their believers in line. e.g. "it put the fear of God into him" or "She's a good God fearing woman". Religions also tend to substitute gods for the unknown, or gaps in our knowledge. e.g "What's that big glowing ball of fire in the sky? It's God (Ra)" or "How was the Earth created? God made it", etc...

    Many people hate to admit ignorance, yet we are all ignorant of very many things. To my mind, rather than admit ignorance, religion substitutes fantasy in such a way as to build its own power base. Preying on people's natural fears, e.g. fear of death, is a very effective way of doing this.

    I've no fear of death, but I suppose I fear dying before I get to do a lot of things on my list, such as travelling to Iran because I love Persia, and I am still unsure how safe it is for westerners.
    But one of the Tennant's of Shia Muslims is to welcome people of all cultures and religions with open arms, which got lost somewhere over the last 20 year's.

    I also want to progress with my writing, poetry and my art projects.

    For all my interests and goals reincarnation seems pretty dam attractive to me.
    I've often heard a minority of Atheists giving out about how bad the world is and they'ed never want to be reincarnated or go to an afterlife or intriguing place after they pass on.

    That to me is a lack of lustre for life and adventure and no creativity or ability to live in the present or the moment.
    It's a bad attitude and they're definitely not well to be so sad and miserable.

    Id love if there was more to this existence than nothingness, but I think I'd probably end up in hell according to the Abrahamic religion.
    Although I never killed anyone, but I have broken a lot of commandments.


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    #731
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nthclare wrote: »
    We'll Pagans think like that, but the hardline Atheists are obsessed with some dude from the middle east with a beard lol and the Catholic church.

    Only because in our part of the world, that dude's followers have way too much influence over our society.

    You'll find atheists in Burma or Afghanistan have quite different concerns - usually keeping their head and shoulders in communion with each other for a start.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #732
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nthclare wrote: »
    And we're going on the merry go round again :)

    I think all the regular Atheist posters have concluded that no God exists.

    And yet again I have to point out that non-belief in god(s) is not the same thing as belief in the existence of no god(s).
    Would it not be easier to let Agnostics chat about it rather than the usual hum drum of circular discussions.

    You're not an agnostic, though, are you - you're a pagan.
    Maybe it would be more interesting than the usual drawn out babble.

    So contribute something interesting.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #733
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    "Correct" in the sense of "the output the programmer wants".

    Running with this thought, there is of course the possiblity that the outcome the programmer wants is irreligion/atheism.

    Still, if we think that the outcome God wants is either one particular religion or is irreligion, given the diversity of positions on religious belief that we observe the conclusion must be that God isn't a very good coder. Is that blasphemy?

    Or that there is no god

    Or that there is at best a deistic creator who cares not whether we live or die or what we do.

    Given the absolutely incomprehensible vastness of the universe, the idea that a theistic god created it all for us and even formed us in his image seems vastly improbable.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #734
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nthclare wrote: »
    The Abrahamic God works in mysterious ways don't you know.

    We're all programmed one way or the other, we've no control over the next random thought we have, but I suppose the majority of people can control the outcome of the thought.
    And not act out in a way that can harm themselves or others.

    But christianity says that thoughts can be sinful. Maybe if we can't control our thoughts, we can at least loathe ourselves for having them, instead. :P It's not just teh gheys who are commanded to feel guilty for perfectly natural and harmless thoughts and urges.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #735
    Parsnips
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Parsnips


    As an Athiest I believe in no gods or spirits whatsoever. Its not a crusade against Roman Catholics.

    Again... "Mother Nature" is the be all and end all.

    I kinda think Science is like Alcohol. It will be the cause of, and answer to, all of humanities issues.
    Inevitably as Selfish Humans we will eventually go too far and probably cause or own extiction.

    As Ricky Gervais said recently.... The Bumble Bee is more important to the Earth than Humans ...and there is really no arguements against that TBH.


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    #736
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Plode wrote: »
    Because the Roman Church has this stuff down to a science.

    If they don't know, after centuries of study, who does?

    Hate to break it to you... but...

    They're making it all up

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #737
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    What meaning has your life?

    It's a thermodynamic battle - temporary order against inevitably increasing entropy.

    Being alive is better than not. That's good enough.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #738
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    But christianity says that thoughts can be sinful. Maybe if we can't control our thoughts, we can at least loathe ourselves for having them, instead. :P It's not just teh gheys who are commanded to feel guilty for perfectly natural and harmless thoughts and urges.

    Leave the gheyes alone lol

    Yes I'm a pagan and we're quite harmless we don't practice burning people in the wickerman or sarcrificial ceremonies in the solstice because our apple's failed.

    Although we have good festivals and gatherings now and again and our fellow Pagans are quite easy on the eye.

    Britt Ekland and Ingrid Pitt from the Wickerman weren't far wrong with that look they portrayed on the original Wickerman movie.
    And the men are very distinctive looking too.
    So at a pagan gathering I'm sure whichever ever way you swing it would give you plenty of sinful thought's for a one way ticket to hell :)

    And this year our gatherings have been cancelled due to the New god Covid :)


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    #739
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Parsnips wrote: »
    I kinda think Science is like Alcohol. It will be the cause of, and answer to, all of humanities issues.

    Just remember...

    Scientists discovered nuclear fission

    Engineers built the atomic bomb.

    Scientists discover information, they are not in control of what society does with that information.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #740
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    It's a thermodynamic battle - temporary order against inevitably increasing entropy.

    Being alive is better than not. That's good enough.

    Absolutely when I denounced my faith in the Christian message the world opened up to me.

    I don't disagree with Christ's message of love and empathy and compassion.
    That's a good message.

    But like a lot of people who tried to call people out and bring us together in harmony unfortunately he was crucified and left on a cross and supposedly rose after the third day.
    What happened to that man if it's historically true he didn't deserve it and it's not funny.

    Even today when people try to get changes there's a mob who want them lynched or follow them and put them on a pedestal, kick them off and torture them.
    It's human nature and as someone else said that bees are more important as a Gardener myself I agree.

    Ricky Gervais was mentioned, thankfully for him he's calling out the SJWs and liberals on cancel culture.
    He's dead right about that too.
    Society is gone nuts, liberals are supposed to be liberal and not Nazi's


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    #741
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Just remember...

    Scientists discovered nuclear fission

    Engineers built the atomic bomb.

    Scientists discover information, they are not in control of what society does with that information.

    Same can be said about religion.


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    #742
    Plode
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭Plode


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you... but...

    They're making it all up

    Oh, I used to think that.

    But then I actually read the Bible properly, and discovered some spooky things that I'd been thinking about for a very long time.

    If you're searching for meaning to this life, you should read it carefully. Don't wait as long as I did.

    By the way, a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, was the first to pose the idea of the Big Bang.


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    #743
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,311 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Parsnips wrote: »

    Again... "Mother Nature" is the be all and end all.

    I kinda think Science is like Alcohol. It will be the cause of, and answer to, all of humanities issues.
    Inevitably as Selfish Humans we will eventually go too far and probably cause or own extiction.

    As Ricky Gervais said recently.... The Bumble Bee is more important to the Earth than Humans ...and there is really no arguements against that TBH.

    Well, there is no 'mother nature' either.

    And anyway, humans are part of nature, so whatever happens on this planet, is entirely natural, even if we eventually blow it to bits.

    edit: One often gets the impression in discussions of 'nature' that humans are not a natural part of it. As if we are 'infesting' this plant as if we arrived here from somewhere else. By a God even. As if earth would be one lovely green garden if we weren't here.


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    #744
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nthclare wrote: »
    Leave the gheyes alone lol

    Yes I'm a pagan and we're quite harmless we don't practice burning people in the wickerman or sarcrificial ceremonies in the solstice because our apple's failed.

    Phew :)

    Thing is the Abhramaic cults are about sin and guilt (the popular joke is that guilt is a catholic thing, nope.) and controlling natural harmless urges. George Orwell in 1984 described the "Anti-Sex League", his book was mostly anti-Stalinist but that bit seemed to me a query on catholicism - if you can make people control the sexual urge you can control anything.

    The catholic church's veneration of virginity is a perversion of nature. But with the exception of priestly 'celibacy' it's female virginity which is venerated. There is no claim that Joseph was a virgin or that his father was conceived without sin. Actually afaik a non-virgin unmarried male can still be ordained as a priest, as long as he lets on he's sufficiently sorry about it. Not sure if that appiles to nuns. The whole shebang is so ridiculous it's a wonder that anyone in this day and age is willing to entertain it. But they still control 90% of our primary schools and try to infiltrate kids' brains with this harmful nonsense, for their own ends, at the expense of our taxes.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #745
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Plode wrote: »
    Oh, I used to think that.

    But then I actually read the Bible properly, and discovered some spooky things that I'd been thinking about for a very long time.

    If you're searching for meaning to this life, you should read it carefully. Don't wait as long as I did.

    By the way, a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, was the first to pose the idea of the Big Bang.

    Not meaning to interrupt your response, but as a pagan I have an understanding of chaos magic and intertwined prophecy.

    If something is written and read over and over by the masses it can get into the psyche and equate to any situation.

    It's true there's war's famine and diseases more prominent now than ever,and the book of revelations is very interesting indeed.
    I've read it lots of time's.

    Also the book of genesis can be intertwined with the big bang theory and instead of 7 days of creation we could say 7 billion years.
    Because time is a man made construct and in reality all we have is the moment.
    Simplifying it..although some people theorise that time and distance are like a piece of paper can be folded like a page and with the right technology combining physics and engineering it's possible to bend time and space.

    I also read a lot of HP Lovecraft stories and his writing is fascinating, imagine himself and Nikola Tesla getting together in today's world.

    Id say they could come up with creative solutions solutions.


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    #746
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Plode wrote: »
    Oh, I used to think that.

    But then I actually read the Bible properly, and discovered some spooky things that I'd been thinking about for a very long time.

    If you're searching for meaning to this life, you should read it carefully. Don't wait as long as I did.

    By the way, a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, was the first to pose the idea of the Big Bang.

    That's fallacious reasoning to say the least. It's only a few centuries ago since they tried to keep a monopoly on all education and knowledge. I'll give you another one, a monk discovered genetic inheritance :rolleyes:

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #747
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nthclare wrote: »
    I don't disagree with Christ's message of love and empathy and compassion.
    That's a good message.

    Not much good to you if you were a slave, as he "said" he was not here to overthrow the old laws, and the Old Testament made slavery legal...

    Of course if the fella existed in the first place he was probably closer to "Brian" or one of the marketplace preacher chancers in that film... nothing was written about this supposedly very important, nay miraculous, man until decades after his death, and the accounts don't match up. It's almost as if it's all retconned fan fiction...

    But like a lot of people who tried to call people out and bring us together in harmony unfortunately he was crucified

    Nothing too special about being crucified, his own fan-fic says it was used for common thieves.
    What happened to that man if it's historically true he didn't deserve it and it's not funny.

    Not at all fun for a man, but for a god it wasn't all this "dying for our sins" crap, it was a weekend off and he knew he'd be back at the right hand of his oul' lad within 72 hours. Big deal.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #748
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,189 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nthclare wrote: »
    It's true there's war's famine and diseases more prominent now than ever

    Yet strangely enough human life expectancy is higher than ever.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #749
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Yet strangely enough human life expectancy is higher than ever.

    You're on a roll tonight, is there something in the water :)

    Are you good at table tennis ???

    You're not eating that generic cereal now or snorting dried up cocopops laced with glyohosate :D

    Joking

    Yes there's people alive today that never lived that long before.
    You sound like someone who likes a good laugh and banter.


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    #750
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,120 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    karlitob wrote: »
    Why would an all seeing all powerful god ever give any innocent child cancer.
    I don't believe in God, but a child getting cancer is not really evidence that God does or doesn't exist. It's a weak argument, an emotional one.

    If you are going to ask "why would a good god do...anything". First you should probably ask "Are humans good in the first place".
    The answer is probably no, we are not. We are an incredibly self centered species, with a massive sense of self importance. That applies to Theists and Atheists alike btw. If a creator created the whole universe, then we are one of the harmful parts.
    Parsnips wrote: »
    I 100% know there is no God, No spirits, No Ghosts. No Afterlife.
    Its not a phase. Its education.
    No, you believe that. I also believe that. But you don't know it.
    You may believe that you know it.
    The same way that I believe that you don't true know it because you cannot.
    Parsnips wrote:
    Mother Nature is the only thing controlling this crust we walk on.
    Mother Nature, would be a deity like the one you just said you knew didn't exist.


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    #751
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,120 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Scientists discovered nuclear fission
    Engineers built the atomic bomb.
    Scientists discover information, they are not in control of what society does with that information.
    Except that's not really true is it.

    Scientist didn't discover fission and let engineers do with it what ever they liked. More than discovered, Scientists designed the atomic bomb.

    Oppenheimer was a physicist, who became death, the destroyer of worlds.

    nthclare wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that religious people are afraid of the unknown ?
    Some people are so passionate about their cause they'll die and kill without any fear before hand.
    That's the point. The die without fear because they think they are going to a better place.
    They are no afraid of there being nothing, they convince them selves that it gets better. There are no many atheist suicide bombers.

    nthclare wrote: »
    Also the book of genesis can be intertwined with the big bang theory and instead of 7 days of creation we could say 7 billion years
    Genesis as as much in common with the big bang, as a bunk bed instructions from Ikea.

    Because time is a man made construct and in reality all we have is the moment.
    Time is most certainly not a man made construct.
    Simplifying it..although some people theorise that time and distance are like a piece of paper can be folded like a page and with the right technology combining physics and engineering it's possible to bend time and space.
    No, that's not a theory. That's the movie Event Horizon.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6lDG-bP3zg
    I also read a lot of HP Lovecraft stories and his writing is fascinating, imagine himself and Nikola Tesla getting together in today's world.
    I'm not sure what the work of a rasicst nazi fantasy writer have to do with anything.


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