Are Sinn Féin anti-Catholic?

hatrickpatrick · 04-08-2020 8:43pm

John Hutton wrote: »

What SF have done is say that they no longer believe that violence is the correct way forwards in current circumstances.

They have not said that their previous violence was wrong.

I'm not demanding that of the Church either, so what's your point? The Church continues to teach, among other things, that homosexuality is a sin, that masturbation is a sin, that thinking about another person in a sexual context without being married to them is a sin, that contraception is a sin, and a whole plethora of other things which have f*cked up the psyches of countless pubertal teenagers who take their religion seriously and experience real distress when their brain and body's natural evolution into sexual maturity conflicts with the misanthropic teachings of the Church.

My argument isn't about changing the past, it's about changing the present. SF have officially renounced violence now, the Church has not officially renounced misanthropic and anti-sexuality teachings which are part of its teachings now.

The main criticism towards the church in this thread is the child sex abuse scandal and institutional abuse. The church has taken concrete steps to prevent something like this from occurring again, the child protection policies are now excellent. (of course they should always have been and shouldn't take horrendous abuse to finally get it right).

I am extending that criticism of the church. Psychological torment of their followers through misanthropic ("humans are wretched sinners who deserve to suffer for being born as inherently bad beings") and anti-sexuality ("anything other than being naturally asexual is sinful") teachings are extremely harmful to young people and have very little to do with the message of Christ.

Now if you have a fundamental objection to Catholicism that isn't based on some form of belief that Catholicism automatically begets pedophilia then that is altogether different than a lot of this thread and is a far more interesting discussion to have.

That sums me up fairly well. The Catholic Church's teachings around human sexuality are based upon several fundamental misunderstandings of scripture which have given rise to a rigid and fundamentally unnatural set of beliefs, which I believe are inherently evil in and of themselves due to the psychological harm they inflict on teenagers already going through a very confusing period in their lives.

And some of these teachings directly led to the abuse of the past - Magdalene Laundries for example, which didn't just imprison women who became pregnant but women who refused to suppress their sexuality to the church's liking.

I have found however that most people don't actually understand what the Catholic Church actually teaches on most subjects. I include most catholics in that too, a hallmark of post Vatican II is poor or non existent catechesis, this is especially the case in Ireland. It reminds me of Irish, how people can "study" it for years in school and be unable to have a simple conversation in it.

That's a fair point. I read the gospels extensively in my own youth so I'd like to think that my issues with the contradictions between church doctrine and word of Christ are valid, although I'm always open to debate and correction.

The Catholic Church does not teach people to be ashamed of the human species, quite the opposite in fact, that we are made in the image and likeness of God. Furthermore it also teaches that our proclivity to sin is not a personal defect or failing and that basically everyone does it, but that it can be overcome (I'm being very succinct here) and in fact humanity has been redeemed. It is in no way correct to say that the Church teaches hatred of humanity or human nature.

At it's core Christianity, especially Catholicism, is a very optimistic religion - or as I have seen it put, "hope is a fact with religion".

Try telling that to a person who grew up gay in 20th century Ireland, or a woman who suffered abuse from the Church because she had the temerity to express herself in a way the church viewed as immodest enough to be taken into virtual slavery, or one of the millions of people - particularly Africans - who were affected by the contraception ban which again had no basis in scripture.

The Catholic Church has a disturbing obsession with human sexuality and the policing thereof which our Lord quite simply did not have. When one peels back the few statements he ever made about sexuality, adultery was the only thing he ever directly condemned, as well as lusting after married women (which meant something far darker and more extreme than it does today). The idea that entertaining sexual thoughts, self-service, homosexuality etc are fundamentally sinful did not come from Jesus, yet the Church has obsessed over this aspect of humanity to such an extent as to engage in horrifically misanthropic ranting about it over the decades.

I don't think anyone can really deny this if one looks at how the church has behaved and the things it has preached, especially during the 20th and 21st century. It can be argued that Pope Francis has rowed back on some of this stuff (in particular when it came to contraception in Africa) but I'd argue that the church has a lot further to go in terms of redemption from its misanthropic tendencies than Sinn Fein has to go in terms of redemption from its violent past.

For any child to have reason to sincerely believe that he'll burn in hell for engaging in the very real and natural practise of relieving an overly full sperm bank either manually or while he sleeps is extremely f*cked up, and I absolutely regard that as a form of child abuse - no question about it.

John Hutton · 04-08-2020 9:32pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not demanding that of the Church either, so what's your point? The Church continues to teach, among other things, that homosexuality is a sin, that masturbation is a sin, that thinking about another person in a sexual context without being married to them is a sin, that contraception is a sin, and a whole plethora of other things which have f*cked up the psyches of countless pubertal teenagers who take their religion seriously and experience real distress when their brain and body's natural evolution into sexual maturity conflicts with the misanthropic teachings of the Church.

The church does not teach that someone being gay is a sin. It teaches that homosexual acts are sinful. There is a difference.

To have a proper discussion on this would go far beyond the topic of this thread, but it would be necessary to distinguish between venial and mortal sins. Particularly with mortal sin and distinguishing it from venial sin. The church teaches that the level of culpability needs to be examined and that this is often reduced. For instance, if the sin is habitual it can follow the the sin is not mortal.

My argument isn't about changing the past, it's about changing the present. SF have officially renounced violence now, the Church has not officially renounced misanthropic and anti-sexuality teachings which are part of its teachings now.

This is fair enough, the general thrust of the argument in the thread thus far was "the church committed this abuse so it is bad forever" and someone introduced the comparison to SF. The point I was making in response was that it is inconstant to "move past" SF/IRA misdeeds because they were in the past and not doing it anymore (when they don't even say that it was wrong) and to eternally condemn the Church when they have taken steps to address the misdeeds which were the topic of discussion (child abuse etc.).

I am extending that criticism of the church. Psychological torment of their followers through misanthropic ("humans are wretched sinners who deserve to suffer for being born as inherently bad beings") and anti-sexuality ("anything other than being naturally asexual is sinful") teachings are extremely harmful to young people and have very little to do with the message of Christ.

But the Church teaches neither of the things you say here.

That sums me up fairly well. The Catholic Church's teachings around human sexuality are based upon several fundamental misunderstandings of scripture which have given rise to a rigid and fundamentally unnatural set of beliefs, which I believe are inherently evil in and of themselves due to the psychological harm they inflict on teenagers already going through a very confusing period in their lives.

I don't agree with you here, and I don't think it would serve any use in this thread to debate scripture.

And some of these teachings directly led to the abuse of the past - Magdalene Laundries for example, which didn't just imprison women who became pregnant but women who refused to suppress their sexuality to the church's liking.

Do you not think that abuse has more to do with unaccountable power than church teaching? My attitude would be to agree if you want, disagree if you want, opt in or opt out.

The church has been in Ireland for 1500 or so years. Why is the century from 1880 to 1980 (or thereabouts) considered the be all and end all, the definition of Catholicism in Ireland when for the other 1400 years it was quite different?

That's a fair point. I read the gospels extensively in my own youth so I'd like to think that my issues with the contradictions between church doctrine and word of Christ are valid, although I'm always open to debate and correction.

The temptation to get into a scriptural debate here is strong but I won't!

Try telling that to a person who grew up gay in 20th century Ireland, or a woman who suffered abuse from the Church because she had the temerity to express herself in a way the church viewed as immodest enough to be taken into virtual slavery, or one of the millions of people - particularly Africans - who were affected by the contraception ban which again had no basis in scripture.

The point is that people, Priests, Bishops and Cardinals, even Popes can and do abuse power and twist teachings to suit their own agenda. Many of the things that happened, done by the church in Ireland were sinful, by any standards, and also by their own teachings!

The Catholic Church has a disturbing obsession with human sexuality and the policing thereof which our Lord quite simply did not have. When one peels back the few statements he ever made about sexuality, adultery was the only thing he ever directly condemned, as well as lusting after married women (which meant something far darker and more extreme than it does today). The idea that entertaining sexual thoughts, self-service, homosexuality etc are fundamentally sinful did not come from Jesus, yet the Church has obsessed over this aspect of humanity to such an extent as to engage in horrifically misanthropic ranting about it over the decades.

I don't think anyone can really deny this if one looks at how the church has behaved and the things it has preached, especially during the 20th and 21st century. It can be argued that Pope Francis has rowed back on some of this stuff (in particular when it came to contraception in Africa) but I'd argue that the church has a lot further to go in terms of redemption from its misanthropic tendencies than Sinn Fein has to go in terms of redemption from its violent past.

But the Church does not teach that sexual thoughts are fundamentally sinful. No does it teach that being gay is fundamentally sinful.

Until the 1930's all Christian Denominations held the same position the Church does today on contraception.

For any child to have reason to sincerely believe that he'll burn in hell for engaging in the very real and natural practise of relieving an overly full sperm bank either manually or while he sleeps is extremely f*cked up, and I absolutely regard that as a form of child abuse - no question about it.

But this is a simplistic reduction of Church teaching. You can't go on about the Churches teaching on sin and not also discuss the teaching on forgiveness. (not to mention leave out the discussion on what constitutes a mortal sin).

You also shouldn't leave out the aspects of having faith that help people. (I don't think anyone can deny that for billions of people their religious belief is of great help and solace to them).

Interesting stuff though - but I fear we may be leaving the topic behind!

James Brown · 04-08-2020 9:48pm

John Hutton wrote: »

I've never said that I disagreed with SF or the IRA on the national question.

You mentioned they'd never apologised.

This a bit of a difference between bombing and shooting people and Mass to be fair. I think your comment here is unfair and omits the context I made it in - a comparison was basically made between the misdeeds of the church and of the IRA and that SF was ok now because they "renounced violence".

The point is they were engaged in an armed conflict. Why would they apologise for it? They were not 'misdeeds' in their eyes. They never claimed to be other than what they were.

How long of a period? The Catholic church has existed for nearly 2000 years. There is nothing to suggest that Catholicism or Christianity automatically begets pedophilia, rather we see ample evidence in many contexts that unaccountable power leads to abuse.

Well lets pretend it started in the 1940's up to the 1990's :rolleyes:

You have made similar points on many occasions in this thread and I haven't asked you to be specific but I think it's fair to do so now. Ended numerous lives on an industrial scale? What do you mean by that?

The laundries. They were industrial scale on dealing with single mothers and babies. The untold number of suicides, (and letting their families know they were never going to heaven). Historically, the financing of wars. The blessing of soldiers, (continues to this day).

When you look at the Church it also did, and does, a great deal of good.

Completely agree.

I think that's a fair comment and I wouldn't disagree. People have always abused power for their own ends, unfortunately clergy are not immune to this.

It is still early days yet and the Church in Ireland has gone through greater crisis over the years. We will see what happens. Smaller yes, but I don't see it going anywhere.

Is SF anti-catholic? Elements of it yes. Many of the comments made by supporters and representatives during the abortion campaign particular would not have been out of place in an Orange Lodge in the 1960s, particularly the vitriol about rosaries ("bead rattlers") which is an old sectarian trope.

Is it actively out to "destroy" Catholicism? No I don't think so, but that doesn't mean it isn't against it!

I'm sure it'll be around for some time. I think people are moving away and that's not necessarily Anti.

breezy1985 · 04-08-2020 10:27pm

John Hutton wrote: »

So if you give a catholic power or influence they will automatically use it to rape people? This is what you are saying.

I have a question for you, do you think that the Catholic church in Ireland always shamed people for the things you say it did?

If you give the church power yes.

And for question 2 also yes

Truthvader · 04-08-2020 10:45pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

They were hopping mad when Harris was appointed commissioner. He’s one of ‘dem uns’.

Some some Sinn Fein hostility to Harris here before but thought it was the usual Sinn Fein anti Garda nonsense. Is there some particular objection to Harris?

JohnnyFlash · 04-08-2020 10:50pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Some some Sinn Fein hostility to Harris here before but thought it was the usual Sinn Fein anti Garda nonsense. Is there some particular objection to Harris?

In the ultimate of irony, they didn’t want him hired because he was from a certain part of Norn Iron and of a certain faith!

I doubt Drew refers to the place as the Free State or the 26 counties either.

Truthvader · 04-08-2020 10:54pm

Odhinn wrote: »

As they're now the main opposition party, its fairly clear they haven't. The armed struggle is ended however.

Gotta love the whitewashed "armed struggle" label. You mean of course a campaign of indiscriminate murder and terror.

horse7 · 04-08-2020 10:54pm

Sinn Fein have been very quiet with the new 3 stooges government return to normal policy. What would they have done if they were our leaders.

breezy1985 · 04-08-2020 11:08pm

John Hutton wrote: »

The church does not teach that someone being gay is a sin. It teaches that homosexual acts are sinful. There is a difference.

To have a proper discussion on this would go far beyond the topic of this thread, but it would be necessary to distinguish between venial and mortal sins. Particularly with mortal sin and distinguishing it from venial sin. The church teaches that the level of culpability needs to be examined and that this is often reduced. For instance, if the sin is habitual it can follow the the sin is not mortal.

Do you not think that abuse has more to do with unaccountable power than church teaching? My attitude would be to agree if you want, disagree if you want, opt in or opt out.

The church has been in Ireland for 1500 or so years. Why is the century from 1880 to 1980 (or thereabouts) considered the be all and end all, the definition of Catholicism in Ireland when for the other 1400 years it was quite different?

But the Church does not teach that sexual thoughts are fundamentally sinful. No does it teach that being gay is fundamentally sinful.

Until the 1930's all Christian Denominations held the same position the Church does today on contraception.

But this is a simplistic reduction of Church teaching. You can't go on about the Churches teaching on sin and not also discuss the teaching on forgiveness. (not to mention leave out the discussion on what constitutes a mortal sin).
/QUOTE]

Being gay is not a sin but physical love between gay people is a sin.The biggest load of bull since the UN declared that many individual acts of genocide in one place does not mean a genocide.

As for the dates 1890-1980 I would more go with 1922- 1990s and the reason they were not committing industrialised rape was because they had no political power until the free state.

Pre 1930s contraception was in its infancy and barely a topic or reality for most so thats bull. Its like saying all churches were against airplanes in the 1800s

It does teach that many sexual acts outside male/female sex for procreation are sinful whether done alone or with others. I bet ide get plenty of hail marys in confession if I went

And wow the group who committed the beating rape and bullying believe in forgiveness so we should all just get over it.

The church is obsessed with the sexual lives of average people and coupled with the wholly unnatural celibacy rules has created an organisation of deviants

Truthvader · 04-08-2020 11:15pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

In the ultimate of irony, they didn’t want him hired because he was from a certain part of Norn Iron and of a certain faith!

I doubt Drew refers to the place as the Free State or the 26 counties either.

OMG. you would think that some kind of self interest might have persuaded them to say nothing. They just cant help themselves

John Hutton · 04-08-2020 11:21pm

Contraception existed and was used from at least Roman times.

The Catholic church had massive political power in Ireland before the reformation.

RandomViewer · 04-08-2020 11:21pm

Truthvader wrote: »

So as expected; not a shred of evidence that the Guards escorted Loaylists killers anywhere. Just the usual Sinn Fein anti Garda drivel. Only criminals are automatically hostile to the Guards so no surprise. Nice to be reminded though that behind the facade they haven't gone away you know

Gardai in Donegal in the 90s were corrupt,do you disagree with this?
There is enough evidence to suggest that these Gardai coluded in the murder of Eddie Fullerton,
There has always being enough evidence that the FG government coluded in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and the Gardai facilitated the bombers escape.

maccored · 04-08-2020 11:23pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

In the ultimate of irony, they didn’t want him hired because he was from a certain part of Norn Iron and of a certain faith!

I doubt Drew refers to the place as the Free State or the 26 counties either.

irony? SF dont trust him because of his religion ye reckon? I'd say it was because he a top man in the RUC. His religion etc doesnt matter, its his RUC job was the issue (i would assume).

Truthvader · 04-08-2020 11:28pm

RandomViewer wrote: »

Gardai in Donegal in the 90s were corrupt,do you disagree with this?
There is enough evidence to suggest that these Gardai coluded in the murder of Eddie Fullerton,
There has always being enough evidence that the FG government coluded in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and the Gardai facilitated the bombers escape.

There was a well known issue in part of Donegal years ago unconnected to Loyalist. The balance of the post is simply crude Sinn Fein anti Garda/ anti FG lies.

Truthvader · 04-08-2020 11:32pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would have taught the fact he ordered the enquiries into the glennane gang shut down,denying families justice would have been enough to raise qs about him

Great country to big up john hume,for seeking peace and justice.....while appointing a man who helped cover 151 innocent people murdered to be garda commissioner.......something deosnt add up here

Indeed it doesn't but any mad conspiracy theory that gets the Guards is worth a spin

RandomViewer · 04-08-2020 11:43pm

Truthvader wrote: »

There was a well known issue in part of Donegal years ago unconnected to Loyalist. The balance of the post is simply crude Sinn Fein anti Garda/ anti FG lies.

:mad:
Blinkers on Truthy,criminality still high within the Gardai, protecting Hutch distribution network
Not a member of SF, hate FG and their agents,

JohnnyFlash · 04-08-2020 11:47pm

RandomViewer wrote: »

:mad:
Blinkers on Truthy,criminality still high within the Gardai, protecting Hutch distribution network
Not a member of SF, hate FG and their agents,

Name these agents, dude.

James Brown · 04-08-2020 11:54pm

horse7 wrote: »

Sinn Fein have been very quiet with the new 3 stooges government return to normal policy. What would they have done if they were our leaders.

They haven't. MLMD gave a great speech the other day. Ripped into them goodo. Also Doherty was quoted a lot when the three amigos were handing out jobs and pay hikes.
In fact wee Leo was whinging about being bullied by the opposition.
Of course if FF or FG were the "opposition" theyd be in the papers every day but that's not based on quality

Truthvader · 04-08-2020 11:56pm

RandomViewer wrote: »

:mad:
Blinkers on Truthy,criminality still high within the Gardai, protecting Hutch distribution network
Not a member of SF, hate FG and their agents,

Well this is news. So the guards are helping to distribute heroin. Please please give more detail as both Sinn Fein and the media seem to have missed this news visible to all not wearing blinkers.... Unless its another bucket of crap like the RUC robbing the Northern Bank . Anyway cant wait for details

James Brown · 04-08-2020 11:57pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Name these agents, dude.

The lad who burned the car from the Quinn abduction might have a few tips.

JohnnyFlash · 05-08-2020 12:00am

Bowie wrote: »

The lad who burned the car from the Quinn abduction might have a few tips.

Haven’t a clue what you’re on about, dude. It isn’t FG who are the political party used to praising and working with shadowy figures from the borderlands.

James Brown · 05-08-2020 12:00am

Truthvader wrote: »

Well this is news. So the guards are helping to distribute heroin. Please please give more detail as both Sinn Fein and the media seem to have missed this news visible to all not wearing blinkers.... Unless its another bucket of crap like the RUC robbing the Northern Bank . Anyway cant wait for details

A drug unit garda accused of tipping off a heroin dealer he was allegedly sleeping with says he was trying to “cultivate her as a tout”, a tribunal was told.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/drug-unit-garda-slept-with-heroin-dealer-for-information-23lck5zbb

I was an inside man your honour!

James Brown · 05-08-2020 12:02am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Haven’t a clue what you’re on about, dude. It isn’t FG who are the political party used to praising and working with shadowy figures from the borderlands.

You say you dont have a clue then comment on it. Do you mean you disagree?

maccored · 05-08-2020 12:02am

Truthvader wrote: »

Well this is news. So the guards are helping to distribute heroin. Please please give more detail as both Sinn Fein and the media seem to have missed this news visible to all not wearing blinkers.... Unless its another bucket of crap like the RUC robbing the Northern Bank . Anyway cant wait for details

Isn't that the one that is more factful than blaming the IRA? Aye - thought it was. I'd say you'd know a bucket of crap alright.

Truthvader · 05-08-2020 12:02am

Bowie wrote: »

The lad who burned the car from the Quinn abduction might have a few tips.

Super, a reliable source to kick off

05-08-2020 12:07am

Truthvader wrote: »

Super, a reliable source to kick off

Imagine trying to deny this happened

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-53002596

It was an accident in same way,maurice maccabe being labeled a child abuser was an accident :rolleyes:

JohnnyFlash · 05-08-2020 12:13am

Bowie wrote: »

You say you dont have a clue then comment on it. Do you mean you disagree?

No, I mean I haven’t a clue what you are trying to suggest. You just posted a seemingly random link to a news story without any context. Are you trying to link it to FG or something?

There’s this phenomenon online that is very common, and you are increasingly guilty of it. The discourse derangement trap. It happens when you loath something so intensely - in your case Leo V and FG - that literally anything they say sends you searching for a contrary, hopefully falsifying, response. These responses often make absolutely no sense; are without any context, and diminish entirely any sort of point you are attempting to make.

Effects · 05-08-2020 12:13am

LuasSimon wrote: »

Martin Mcguiness a devout catholic

You can't be a devout Catholic and murder more people than you can remember.

James Brown · 05-08-2020 12:36am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

No, I mean I haven’t a clue what you are trying to suggest. You just posted a seemingly random link to a news story without any context. Are you trying to link it to FG or something?

There’s this phenomenon online that is very common, and you are increasingly guilty of it. The discourse derangement trap. It happens when you loath something so intensely - in your case Leo V and FG - that literally anything they say sends you searching for a contrary, hopefully falsifying, response. These responses often make absolutely no sense; are without any context, and diminish entirely any sort of point you are attempting to make.

We are talking about the Garda dude. You seem obsessed. You bring SF into an FG thread and FG into an SF thread.
Pointing out the idiocy and ineptitude of politicians isn't hate. You need relax dude.

James Brown · 05-08-2020 12:39am

Effects wrote: »

You can't be a devout Catholic and murder more people than you can remember.

Tell that to the mass grave of babies in Tuam.

Are Sinn Féin anti-Catholic?

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